So its basically using the same arm angle and same resulting spin as an offspinner's topspinner (if you follow me). Are there any particular advantages from getting the thumb involved, would you say?
Back-Spinning Deliveries
- Thread starter someblokecalleddave
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So its basically using the same arm angle and same resulting spin as an offspinner's topspinner (if you follow me). Are there any particular advantages from getting the thumb involved, would you say?
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Guys,
Look at this - You might find this very interesting. http://www.bcci.tv/bcci/bccitv/community/video/videoindex/4eb8dbb56e233#
A Carrom ball bowled with quite a bit of backspin on it, behaves as we all know the flipper should. Definitely an option for all the finger spinners out here
Look at this - You might find this very interesting. http://www.bcci.tv/bcci/bccitv/community/video/videoindex/4eb8dbb56e233#
A Carrom ball bowled with quite a bit of backspin on it, behaves as we all know the flipper should. Definitely an option for all the finger spinners out here
Basically just an orthodox backspinner - he just rolls his fingers down the back of the ball.
I see no reason why using one bit of the finger would impart any more spin on the ball than any other bit? Rolling the ball off the inside of the finger as he does won't create any more spin than rolling the ball off the end of the finger (in fact probably less due to the shorter lever effect). He only does that to add an element of disguise by making sure his hand mimics the rough shape of an offspinner's stock delivery.
It's a good ball nonetheless, better disguised than Saqlain's teesra.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Here's Warne talking about his back-spinner - It's definitely not the Orthodox back-spinner and he doesn't seem to sure about what it's supposed to do or how he bowls it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=HM9425Mq_1k&NR=1
GoldenArm
Member
Its the slider ain't it. I think there's a lot of over complication of this delivery, it just comes out the front of the hand, end of story really, but still with a cocked wrist and you flick behind the ball rather than around it. that's my take on the slider and mine behaves very much as warne describes it, some turn, some don't, its a bit like a seamers wobble ball in some respects, in that you're not quite sure what its going to do after you release it.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Yeah I'd be happy to call that the slider, but what would then call the Big Leg Break that is slanted so that the axis points either up or down and not horizontal, because this would look like the Biggun in the air coming at you but could then land on the smooth side of the ball and skid on - A zooter maybe?
Spiderlounge
Member
I was bowling a few sliders at a batsman the other day and found a few of them were seaming around a bit (it's quite a hard seamy artificial surface in our nets) - I even bowled one that seamed back in like a skiddy wrong 'un. No idea how I did it sadly, but it was definitely seaming rather than breaking.
Kiran Rajkumar
Member
My Orthodox back spinners dramatically lose pace of the wicket. Does yours lose pace too or do they skid? I love using them on slow wickets.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
I just wish I could bowl them. I'll just have to stick to the Flipper.
GoldenArm
Member
I bowled an OBS by accident yesterday evening, went for a big square turner and it just went straight on and even came in a bit like a googly. the batsman is a guy who knows my bowling really well cause I've bowled at him so much, he looks for my pinky sticking up, and he looked up at me and went 'How did you disguise your googly like that! that was a different one!" Wish I knew how to do that deliberately.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Just bowl your square turner with the axis pointed up or down and some of them will go through straight and then blag it saying that it was a back-spinner/slider/zooter - delete as appropriate, that's what Warne would have done!
I've read through this thread, was there a consensus reached? I'm getting into coaching now (my replacement anyway!) and I would like to know that I'm giving the kid advice and terms that will travel.
My interpretation is:
1. Slider - A leg break pushed out of the front of the hand so that the trajectory (drift) is the same as a legspinner but does not turn, the release of the ball is such that there can be some slight legspin
2. Zooter - A leg break released while getting under the ball rather than getting over the top, the result is an 'underspun' legspinner that drifts in like a leg spinner but does not turn
3. I would classify this one as an arm ball
4. OBS - When going 'round the loop' rather than rotate your wrist position away from your head to go from the legbreak to the topspinner, rotate your wrist position the opposite way so that the seam is pointing like an exaggerated inswinger. When released the ball is given spin like a legbreak but as the seam is pointing like a legbreak the ball gets the benefit of drift and swing but there should be no spin on a good pitch.
Am I close with any of these or I have got a few things mixed up?
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
No I don't think there is any real consensus on anything other than the OBS. The slider and the zooter are subject to opinion and Warnes knack of bluff, different people describe them in different ways. Then on the other hand so few people know about this subject and very few are willing to put their hand up and say what's what, if you just go along and bluff it a la' Warne, no-ones going to know any different!
I agree with you 100% on the slider. That's pretty much nailed on - all the legspinners and and legspin coaches I have ever talked to mean that when they talk about a slider. Its also the only one I really care about, because its the only one I have ever seen bowled either in real life or on telly. IMPO, the zooter is just a made up word and the OBS just exists in Woolmer's book. The slider is quite a common delivery in my experience. Less common than the googly but a lot more common than the flipper.
Sweet, good to hear consensus on the slider!
I'm not too sure about the zooter being made up in the sense that it hasn't been associated with a unique delivery, the one I've quoted above has been described by at least 2 ex-Aussie spinners (sorry, no link!). Even if the zooter is just another of Warne's 'ghost' deliveries, what would you call the zooter I've described?
I can safely say that I do bowl an OBS as defined in Woolmer's book, it requires a lot of thumb input so I can understand why when using a Warne-like grip that an OBS is difficult or near impossible to bowl.
Forgive me for being cynical. I've frequently read or heard about 100 different leg spin variations, but in all my years of watching coaching and playing cricket I've only actually seen a googly, a topspinner, a slider, and occasionally a flipper (although its often misdiagnosed). I'll happily believe in the others as soon I see clear footage of them being bowled in a game.
Ok, I'll try and get footage of me bowling the OBS as I've described it, unfortunately it's the midst of the NZ winter so it may have to wait until my preseason starts. Until then I'll see if I can get a snapshot or quick video of it being released from the hand.
Reading back through the thread, my understanding of a zooter is that it's the legspinner version of an offspinners 'undercutter' as you described earlier.
Fully understand the cynicism, too often a legspinner gets asked "why don't you bowl a xxxxx delivery?", when the questioner is pressed as to what xxxxx is they usually have no idea what is or what it's meant to do.