English Spinners

[Boris]

English Spinners

I am not an avid follower of English cricket, and just wondered a bit of history regarding English spin.

In the last 15 years how many spinners have there been and have they been successful?

If not who was the most successful spin bowler in modern times (let's say after ODI cricket was formed - 1967 if I recall correctly?)

I only know of a few... make that three. Panesar, Giles and Swann. That's only because of the last few years they have played in the Ashes.

I was just wondering as to who there has been.

 

[macca]

Re: English Spinners

I am not an avid follower of English cricket, and just wondered a bit of history regarding English spin.

In the last 15 years how many spinners have there been and have they been successful?

If not who was the most successful spin bowler in modern times (let's say after ODI cricket was formed - 1967 if I recall correctly?)

I only know of a few... make that three. Panesar, Giles and Swann. That's only because of the last few years they have played in the Ashes.

I was just wondering as to who there has been.

since 1967? Derek Underwood was probably the best I saw . Blokes like Emburey and Titmus used to bowl well in Australia bowling into the nor easter and drifting the ball away from right handers. They could defend well too by stacking the leg side and frustrating the batsman.

 

[Tumo]

Re: English Spinners

there haven't been many in the past 15yrs or so, not ones of note anyway! phil tuffnell, richard dawson, gileo, swanny and monty as you said as well. there's shaun udal, robert croft, and i'd probably stop about there for 'genuine' spinners. ian blackwell, jeremy snape and jamie dalrymple all tried and really failed.

we had a couple of leg spinners, but nobody really cares about chris schofield or ian salisbury... swann and monty were probably the most successful in terms of average, strike rate, etc. but phil tuffnell and ashley giles did a very good job as well.

in terms of odi performance, since they started? john emburey did very well, gileo/monty/tuffnell also all took 100+ wickets in ODIs, as did Phil Edmonds who I don't know much about, apart from he was an awkward swine and hence didn't get picked much! So many random people who have come in, taken 40 wicket or so, and faded out again... Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com is a link to a list of the spinners and how well they did. If I'm honest, the last great spinner we had was Deadly Derek Underwood, which was about... 1965-ish? Which shows how much we've needed someone like Swann to almost galvanise the interest in spin in England again!

 

[Boris]

Re: English Spinners

It's just that I know quite a bit about spinners from every Test playing nation in the last 30ish years - except for England. Going back to 67 in this thread is just a learning experience for me.

I was wondering if England's spinners were just hiding from me or there really was actually nobody of note. Swann and Panesar being the best of the last 20 years has sealed it for me... England has been quite terrible producing spinners. I would have to say Australia's worst spinner in the last 20 years is Hauritz right now... and one could argue he's bowled better than Swann.

The only other country worse than England is the Windies, and that's because pace bowling is their thing over there.

I'm not trying to turn this into a pom bashing thread, just wondering why exactly England hasn't been able to produce a 'notable figure' (Warne, Murali, Harbajhan of right now) since Underwood, even though spin is very effective on English pitches.

Is something wrong, or is it simply because there has been not talent to speak of?

 

[Jim2109]

Re: English Spinners

its probably because English coaches have a tendancy to over-analyse the life out of players. and change things that dont need changing.

i wouldnt say Hauritz is anywhere near the same class as Swann though. Swann is probably number 1 spinner in the world right now, he takes wickets on any surface, against any batsman. he also has an amazing talent for getting a wicket in his first over of a spell, near enough every time!! for an off spinner he seriously rips the ball.

i dont know how much English cricket you get to see in Australia, but since the Ashes last summer he has done nothing but improve. and to be fair, he was bowling very well last summer as it was. if he keeps this form up into the winter then the Aussies are going to struggle against him come the Ashes in December. i was stunned that no-one took him on in the IPL this year!

 

[Liz Ward]

Re: English Spinners

Tuffers.... mmmmm!

Basically, spinners begat spinners. We have neither the culture, environment nor climate to nurture spinners. Go into any junior section of a club and you will see rows of bowlers being taught pace. Spinners come out naturally if they are allowed to. Then the clubs have no idea what to do with them! It is a bit like all children being taught to write with their right hand.

Things are changing though. The ECB have put quite a lot of resource into turning things around but we still need many more grassroots coaches who understand spin before things improve noteably.

 

[lewissaffin]

Re: English Spinners

Phil Tufnell sprang to mind. Giles, Swann, Panesar, Tufnell, Dawson, Croft.

I have to say, England lends itself to pace bowling (swing in early season and generally lively tracks for pace bowling such as Headingley, Edgbaston, etc...).

Swann is a far better bowler than Hauritz. As Jim2109 said, he takes wickets everywhere he goes and does have a tremendous knack of getting a wicket in the first over of every spell he bowls.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: English Spinners

with regards English pitches maybe not being perfect for spin, certainly they lend themselves better to swing bowling as we have unique weather conditions when compared to the other test playing nations.

however, i dont necessarily think that its valid to imply that English pitches dont promote spin, and that spin would be any less beneficial than in other countries. you just have to look at the figures of top wrist spinners when visiting England, and their figures are usually exemplary. Warne, Muralitharan, and Kumble all spring straight to mind. they had major success on English pitches, Warne especially.

so i think its more a case of off spin is pretty average and maybe doesnt lend itself to English conditions all that well. but leg spin is definitely beneficial. however there seems to be a lack of coaching in England for leg spin, especially since we havent had any modern leg spinners that were any good at all.

its ironic that its an Australian hero that has inspired the current generation of English leg spinners!!

 

[macca]

Re: English Spinners

Underwood was a magnificent bowler full stop. I would put him in the ten best i ever saw. Warne, Lillee, Hadlee, he was in that league.

Emburey was the next best. Swann could finish up 2nd to Underwood. But Underwood was a different type of bowler then a traditional english off spinner, he was in his own class like Bill O Rielly, medium pace spinner.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: English Spinners

My understanding of the English spin situation is as described by Liz. My son when he joined his club had a situation where all of the coaches made him turn his ball round to bowl seam up, whereas he was naturally bowling Leg-breaks using a wrist spinners grip. It's as though there's a set series of teaching objectives handed out when the coaches go on their ECB coaching courses and theirs a reluctance to deviate off the lesson plans as such? I've never seen a single coach make any attempt at teaching or suggesting there's another option to bowling seam up and fast and I know from my own observations that very few people have the knowledge or skills to teach all forms of spin-bowling especially wrist spinning. If you've followed the Wrist Spin thread over the last 3 or so years since I've been commenting on it, you'll have seen that I've been absolutely amazed at how little anyone knows about the art or alternatively amazed at their reluctance to pass on any knowledge to anyone trying to learn it. The 'Leg-spinners' that I've come across have been pretty limited on their knowledge and I think many of us observed this at a much higher level when Shane Warne spoke to the 2 young English county bowlers during the last Ashes series. Warne was rattling through his variations and neither of them were aware of some of them, let alone able to bowl them! Additionally, just think in terms of what resources are out there to access with regards 'Real' maybe professional advice to anyone that wants to learn different aspects of the art. The only stuff is Warne, Jenner and The David Freedman clips from John F Cooke (A blogger), Peter Philpotts book, Bob Woolmers book and then some extraordinarily rare books by Grimmett, all written or demonstrated primarily by blokes from Australia.

Finger spin may be slightly different, but I have no knowledge or interest in the art, but having said that if you want to learn Finger Spin you're far more likely to get someone within a club to step forward and offer some help.

In Philpotts book The Art of Wrist Spin bowling, he describes how during the 80's prior to Warnes emergence Wrist Spinning especially and slow bowling generally nearly faded away into the past almost never to be seen again. One of Warne, Jenner and Philpotts legacies is that between them they've revived the art of slow bowling and with the coincidence of digital technology and global media expansion with Warnes career, thousands of kids have been inspired. But being inspired and wanting to throw the ball slow and sideways still doesn't seem to excite many a club cricket player who probably holds sway as to how a club develops having been brought up on a diet of fast bowling through the 70's and 80's? Similarly captains and teams wanting to win leagues and matches if they don't spin the ball themselves seem very reluctant to take spinners seriously and this seems to permeate through English cricket right up to the top. Where is Adil Rashid now? What happened to Samit Patel? Who is it who trains these blokes for England?

I'm vaguely aware that something is happening - there is something going on at the ECB. If you search really hard you'll find stuff within the ECB websites that I've stumbled upon before that indicates that Ashley Giles is involved in some kind of English Spin initiative. But it's for county and National players and it's unlikely that it'll ever filter down to club level where it might help some kid in the future. http://www.ecb.co.uk/ecb/national-c...fast-bowling-and-spin-programmes,1724,BP.html

Ironically, I've never met an English county player or National player in my life of any type let alone a wrist spinner, but, if it wasn't for the fact that the bloke hadn't had a heart attack I'd have spent most of last Thursday with Terry Jenner at one of his spin clinics. I think that in itself is a good indication of the state of spin here in England.

Another things is - if there is information and it's supposedly informed and of quality you have to pay for it.

I think in the longer term it's going to get better, all the younger blokes that are in cricket now who are integral to their clubs future, blokes that as they get more settled and less wayward and youthful will be those that have come through the Warne years, they may be more open to the idea that spin has a place in a team. My own club has already gone through that transition and the five or 6 key players that are in their late 20's and early 30's who virtually pull all the strings at the club are all on-board with spin being an integral part of the team. Indeed the highest wicket taker and with one of the lowest averages is a Spinner is one of these blokes and they encourage and teach kids as much as they can, but again going back to the kind of detail and knowledge aspects it strikes me as being still fairly limited but at least the enthusiasm and exceptancy of spin is there and it's integral to the club.

Look at this - http://crictips.com/2010/04/16/captaincy-poject-team-background/ some people do care and look to encouarge it, but it does seem to me to be a rare thing at club level.

Found some ECB stuff http://static.ecb.co.uk/files/ecb-coaches-association-technical-bulletin-issue-5-10313.pdf
http://static.ecb.co.uk/files/hitting-the-seam-issue-8-page-7-227.pdf

 

[Jim2109]

Re: English Spinners

you mention whatever happened to Samit Patel - he fell victim to the ridiculous English coaching mentality that every player must be marathon fit, rather than being cricket fit. the captain at the time when he was last ruled out called him "unfit, fat, and lazy", in those exact words. coming from a man (Kevin Pietersen) who can run all day long, but spends half his life on crutches.

personally i think the England national coaching is a shambles, you just have to look at the injury problems and the complete lack of direction during matches. they spend too much time in the gym, or analysing videos. and when it comes to matches they arent "cricket fit", and the players have turned into drones. they just follow orders from the dressing room without exercising any individual strategy. if it wasnt for Andrew Flintoff over the past 5 years, and more recently Graeme Swann and occasionally James Anderson, England would have done absolutely nothing, and we would probably be about 8th in the rankings. you watch the top sides like Australia and India, and they almost always have some fresh ideas when an innings gets stagnant.

compare that to someone like Shane Warne - he was fairly chunky, smoked and drank plenty, id imagine not the fittest player in the world, yet he had genious on the field. by the English national selection standards, Shane Warne (even at his career best) WOULD NOT get into the England team right now!! and that is utterly ridiculous.

its no wonder that we underperform so horrendously against the other top test nations, despite having 4 of the 5 current "Wisden cricketers of the year", and 3 in the Wisden test XI.

its a shame Ian Botham is more interested in picking up his cheque from Sky for commentary instead of putting something useful back into cricket by taking a role in the England management setup. he talks all day along about what needs to happen, but talk is all he does.

not entirely related to spin specifically, but the entire England setup is wrong IMO and spin will struggle to play a part for England when the men in charge are so objected to change, and so clearly lacking in direction.

 

[Boris]

Re: English Spinners

I didn't want to start any Hauritz vs Swann or Australia vs England stuff, sorry if you got the feel of that. I was just trying to point out that Australia's worst just about equals England's best, and England won two out of the last three Ashes. This is really the only couple of years that Australia hasn't had a surplus of good spinners in the last 20 years.

I think what Liz, Dave and Jim have said must be the only reason.

England has very good spinning conditions in general, does it not? Once again my knowledge on English cricketing grounds isn't very good, but taking a good spinner to England has always been a necessity for the Ashes, and they always come out with good figures. This would surely flow over to the pitches supplied at grass roots levels?

Far from what I have witnessed on this site. Really all the Englishmen on this forum are spinners

 

[A.B De Villiers]

Re: English Spinners

you mention whatever happened to Samit Patel - he fell victim to the ridiculous English coaching mentality that every player must be marathon fit, rather than being cricket fit. the captain at the time when he was last ruled out called him "unfit, fat, and lazy", in those exact words. coming from a man (Kevin Pietersen) who can run all day long, but spends half his life on crutches.

personally i think the England national coaching is a shambles, you just have to look at the injury problems and the complete lack of direction during matches. they spend too much time in the gym, or analysing videos. and when it comes to matches they arent "cricket fit", and the players have turned into drones. they just follow orders from the dressing room without exercising any individual strategy. if it wasnt for Andrew Flintoff over the past 5 years, and more recently Graeme Swann and occasionally James Anderson, England would have done absolutely nothing, and we would probably be about 8th in the rankings. you watch the top sides like Australia and India, and they almost always have some fresh ideas when an innings gets stagnant.

compare that to someone like Shane Warne - he was fairly chunky, smoked and drank plenty, id imagine not the fittest player in the world, yet he had genious on the field. by the English national selection standards, Shane Warne (even at his career best) WOULD NOT get into the England team right now!! and that is utterly ridiculous.

its no wonder that we underperform so horrendously against the other top test nations, despite having 4 of the 5 current "Wisden cricketers of the year", and 3 in the Wisden test XI.

its a shame Ian Botham is more interested in picking up his cheque from Sky for commentary instead of putting something useful back into cricket by taking a role in the England management setup. he talks all day along about what needs to happen, but talk is all he does.

not entirely related to spin specifically, but the entire England setup is wrong IMO and spin will struggle to play a part for England when the men in charge are so objected to change, and so clearly lacking in direction.

I've played with Samit, while he was out here in Australia in the english winter. He was never the fittest bloke but boy he had some talent, and many of the english commentators I have read would agree with me. Now the english unit believe they need to be superhuman athletes to play cricket, which may be slightly true but without the attention to detail to specific cricket technique and skills, games will still be lost.

I believe Samit has a future, probably as an ODI and T20 player at best. Both with bat and ball in hand.

 

[legspinner_don]

Re: English Spinners

Samit Patel didn't have to become "a superhuman athlete," the coaching staff just wanted him to trim down a bit to help his cricket. He was pretty beefy in 2008 and it was his attitude towards the suggestion that he should be fitter that was the reason he was discarded for a year or two. He was told he had to get fitter to improve his game, and he came back fatter and more unfit than he was before. I think it's fair enough. If you don't show the same determination and desire that other players have then I think it's right you should be told to sort yourself out. It's not like Patel came in and set the world alight. Warne was obviously a world class bowler regardless of his fitness. Patel has the talent but, you must admit, it's been unfulfilled. Gaining better fitness would help him realise this potential.

Flintoff and Swann are similar cases. They both had chances early in their careers and were a failure. Both have since admitted that they weren't fit enough or dedicated enough to their cricket. They spent some time away from the England setup to get themselves fit and gain a better perspective. And they've come back to be leading world cricketers. Hopefully the same will hapen with Patel.

 

[rorymathews]

Re: English Spinners

its probably because English coaches have a tendancy to over-analyse the life out of players. and change things that dont need changing.

I think that this is one of the main reasons combined with those later mentioned by Liz and Dave. As a 10 year old i decided to start bowling spin. Nobody at the club really had an idea of how to coach it to me. I later that year got into the county youth set up when I started to get coaching, but straight into the highest quality where they like to have all of their bowlers bowling technically well. It phased me a little bit when i was younger i feel as i found it harder to get rhythm.

Another point i think is of note is that at the worcestershire academy (the county i play for) there is only one spinner and a few part-time batsmen that bowl off-spin. I think this may be due to some bias by coaches towards pace bowlers. What do you think guys?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: English Spinners

With my limited knowledge of cricket and how the ECB and the club scene integrate with each other, that does seem to be the case looking at the situation from a very limited view. The books I've read and the derisory comments made my commentators on the tele would suggest that there is a feeling that spinning is some secondary 'Mickey Mouse' aspect of the game.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: English Spinners

Warne was obviously a world class bowler regardless of his fitness.

just on this point - Warne ended up as a world class cricketer. but only because he got his chance. he played almost no state cricket in Australia prior to his international call-up, most of the old pros who saw him prior to that didnt think much of him. he was apparently very inconsistent, and in his first few matches he played quite badly.

it was only because of the desperation of Australia to come up with a new leg spinner, and a few well placed people fighting his corner that he ever got his chance. prior to that he supposedly didnt care less about playing cricket, it was only once he got his chance that he realised he had to embrace it.

so in that regard, Warne was a long way from world class, lacking in fitness and lacking in enthusiasm. he obviously showed promise, but it took some brave perserverance from the selectors (or whoever made the call to give him another few games) to really discover how good he was. and then the rest is history.

if Samit Patel got given a chance, who knows how good he might be. when he shows up to play for England, off the back of strong county performances, in the same physical shape he has been in all season long for county, and then gets told to go home because hes too fat, how is that ever going to inspire him to get into shape to play for his country? personally i think if his county performances were good enough to get him considered then he should get to play, regardless of fitness. give him his chance and then ensure that he works hard on the fitness side of things whilst he is in the England setup (where he can be monitored).

Andrew Flintoff was a long way from meeting the current standards of fitness when he first broke into the England setup. and whilst he wasnt that successful first time around, he still got a chance. that gave him the drive to come back stronger. if he had been sent home then he might have just said "f**k it, id rather just play for county than those stuck up idiots running my national side".

 

[Boris]

Re: English Spinners

Do you guys feel that is changing in England?

In 20 years time are we going to see an English spinner that can take on the best evers?

 

[legspinner_don]

Re: English Spinners

just on this point - Warne ended up as a world class cricketer. but only because he got his chance. he played almost no state cricket in Australia prior to his international call-up, most of the old pros who saw him prior to that didnt think much of him. he was apparently very inconsistent, and in his first few matches he played quite badly.

it was only because of the desperation of Australia to come up with a new leg spinner, and a few well placed people fighting his corner that he ever got his chance. prior to that he supposedly didnt care less about playing cricket, it was only once he got his chance that he realised he had to embrace it.

so in that regard, Warne was a long way from world class, lacking in fitness and lacking in enthusiasm. he obviously showed promise, but it took some brave perserverance from the selectors (or whoever made the call to give him another few games) to really discover how good he was. and then the rest is history.

if Samit Patel got given a chance, who knows how good he might be. when he shows up to play for England, off the back of strong county performances, in the same physical shape he has been in all season long for county, and then gets told to go home because hes too fat, how is that ever going to inspire him to get into shape to play for his country? personally i think if his county performances were good enough to get him considered then he should get to play, regardless of fitness. give him his chance and then ensure that he works hard on the fitness side of things whilst he is in the England setup (where he can be monitored).

Andrew Flintoff was a long way from meeting the current standards of fitness when he first broke into the England setup. and whilst he wasnt that successful first time around, he still got a chance. that gave him the drive to come back stronger. if he had been sent home then he might have just said "f**k it, id rather just play for county than those stuck up idiots running my national side".

And that "f**k it" attitude is not befitting of a international cricketer. If that's truly what Patel thinks then I don't think he should be near the England setup. However, Patel admits himself that he was not dedicated enough to be an international cricketer.... Samit Patel hungry to lose weight in comeback bid | England Cricket News | Cricinfo.com

 

[SteveyD]

Re: English Spinners

I'm with you guys here on the lack of knowledge on it.
I try to bowl wristy leg spin, and love doing so, however not one person at my old club knew anything about it or even how to help with it. I was pretty much left to own devices whilst at net sessions the pacers would all be watching each other etc. Its generally got a mentality of no one knows about it, therefore it doesn't get any help and then because those bowlers are less tuned/accomplished it means the pacers get all the bowling time and its a viscous circle. Apart from maybe 1 or the only guys I ever really see bowl spin seem to be batsmen who can't be arsed with long run ups or the older chaps who dont have the fitness to !