Gopro Video

Discussion in 'Spin Bowling' started by TomBowler97, Jun 14, 2016.

Put it out there
  1. boogiespinner

    boogiespinner Active Member

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    This is the conundrum, do you go for maximum spin and then work on controlling it, or find an action you can control and then take it from there?

    I firmly believe in the former approach. I say, rip it as hard as you can. But of course there is a price to pay for it, and that is it might take years to learn how to control the blasted thing. So be it.
     
  2. SLA

    SLA Active Member

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    Ultimately, that depends whether you want to be an effective bowler who can be trusted to bowl in actual cricket matches and get wickets, or whether you want to learn a neat party trick to show to your mates in the back garden.
     
  3. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

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    It is a tricky one because the high arm can make it more difficult to get your wrist in the ideal position and your fingers over the top of the ball. Often, in that instance, you will get that legstump full toss now and then. The drag down tends to happen when your fingers get stuck on top of the ball (usually releasing it a fraction too late).

    Having a bit more angle in your arm should help with the legstump full toss. It's not too difficult to implement a slight lower arm position. The drag downs just come from needing a bit more work in the nets. The difference between the perfect release position and the position that drags the ball is very small. That's why legspin so difficult. It takes lots of time and work in the nets. You should work on ripping it hard more often in the nets and work on reducing the amount of drag downs whilst spinning the ball hard. Put a marker down on the line and length you want, spin it as hard as you can and try hit the marker as many times as possible.
     
  4. Chino#21

    Chino#21 Active Member

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    There should be a healthy balance. First learn how to spin the ball yes, but also how to control it. Then gradually build both up. Less control actually means less spin in my experience. Your action has to be perfectly rhythmical and controlled in order for you to spin the ball the maximum amount. So I'd say you can isolate the two initially - Strengthen the muscle memory for spinning the ball (ex. hand to hand spinning with a cricket ball, underarm throwing etc.) and on the other hand strengthen the bowling action. Then gradually combine both until you have a controlled action that allows you to spin the ball maximally. It's no use not being able to spin the ball insufficiently with perfect control or having incredible spin but no control. The balance is necessary.
     
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  5. boogiespinner

    boogiespinner Active Member

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    But, this is what fascinates me about this art.

    How fast can a ball be spun hand-to-hand?

    I can't quite remember my figures, but I think I recorded something like 12-15 revs/s.

    I can't really imagine a ball being spun an order of magnitude harder than that, hand-to-hand.

    But, the best pro spinners have achieved spin rates of 40 revs/s +.

    So, how on earth are they doing that? There must surely be a synergy of the whole bowling action to achieve this. It can't simply be an addition of hand-to-hand spinning technique onto a base of an action to propel the ball forwards.
     
  6. Max Andrews

    Max Andrews Member

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    The wrist is just the end point of the body’s kinetic chain responsible for placing revolutions on the ball. If you read any of my articles you will learn that we build energy from the ground up, which means using our legs to generate energy through the ground, which is transfer up the kinetic chain effectively, if we have an efficient bowling action. There have been numerous studies which found higher ground reaction forces generated from the back leg and complemented by bracing up on the front leg prior to release resulted in more energy being transfer to the ball. So, pretty much, if you have an efficient bowling action you will be able to generate more revolutions on the ball and because you will be aligned towards the target, your control will also improve.
     
  7. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

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    Well, that is precisely what it is. It's like comparing a jumping start to a run and a jump. A triple jump is an even better example. Technique, pace and power all coming together to provide balance/rhythm and positive outcome.
     
  8. boogiespinner

    boogiespinner Active Member

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    You will not practice a long jump or triple jump effectively by only practising running, and jumping from a standing start separately. That would miss everything.
     
  9. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

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    That's not the point I'm making.

    The point I am making is that you can jump much further with a run up. That's all you are doing with any type of bowling - adding velocity to the release.
     
  10. SLA

    SLA Active Member

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    Well, precisely. which is why you don't practice bowling by practicing your run-up, your action from a standing start, and your wrist action separately.
     
  11. Chino#21

    Chino#21 Active Member

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    I also wouldn't recommend that, but my argument is that you can't learn all three at once. You must know how to run up, how to have a bowling action and how to release the ball before you can do anything. That's just for the very first stages of bowling where you have no clue what to do. After you understand each movement they can be combined easily.
     
  12. SLA

    SLA Active Member

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    Sure, but I don't think anyone here is a complete beginner. Generally with 10 year olds you first work on their action, then after a few weeks add the run up, then a little while later you show them how to spin the ball. By the time they're 12/13 they should be doing all three at once. No-one on this forum is a 10 year old who is just learning to bowl.

    If you practice like a 10 year old you will bowl like a 10 year old. Practice like you want to bowl in the match or you're not really practicing at all - on a proper pitch to a batsman, with a full run up and at a good pace.

    Bad practice actively makes you worse.
     
  13. boogiespinner

    boogiespinner Active Member

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    I'm not sure if we disagree, but my contention is that as part of a masterful legspin bowling action, the pace generating movements do not simply add pace, they combine with the whole action to produce spin rates far in excess than can be achieved by wrist and finger action alone.
     
  14. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

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    True. The way I've always thought about it is that the approach to the crease and the pace that is generated is converted to revs on the ball through that legspin action. The pace of that approach should be able to propel a ball at a decent pace (most pro legspinners would bowl a ball 75mph-80mph if they used a seam bowler's action rather than ripping their fingers over the ball). But obviously, a lot of that pace is converted into revs on the ball when the legspin action is employed.

    The energy and pace of the run up has to be good to enable big revs on the ball. As you say, the synergy of the action is crucial to ensure a lot of that energy is converted into revs on the ball.
     
  15. Max Andrews

    Max Andrews Member

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    Hi Tom

    Here is the link to your video analysis. http://max-andrews.thinkific.com/co...xtremities-enable-more-precision-when-bowling I have included a free introductory video, to help you understand and get a feel for the rest of the analysis. I have paired you up with Adil Rashid and I go over all the major aspects of your action. You will learn how to effectively utilise your lower extremities or legs to produce force. By generating energy via ground reaction forces, you will take the stress off your upper body and hence the smaller muscles can focus on the precision aspect of the action. I teach you how to drive and extend your back leg and how this is initiated by gaining a linear force vector prior to the drive phase. When you begin driving your back leg it should move in a linear direction towards the target, full extension of the back leg must occur prior to front foot landing. Once your front foot lands it must then stabilise and extend fully back into your hips before release, this will increase forward trunk tilt. The forward trunk tilt is an indication of how efficiently you have maximised your ground reaction force transfer to the ball, from your bowling action.

    To help you out, even more, I also give you the drills to help you make the recommendations. I definitely recommend you purchase the entire analysis because the introductory presentation only touches the surface. The full video goes into an in-depth analysis. I am willing to help you out and I want to see you improve. I am giving you a lot of stuff for FREE!! So check it out, give it a go and then send me another video of your bowling, with a good side view, like Rashid’s and I will give you an even better analysis. Feel free to check out some of the other bowlers that I have analysed. If you have any question please don’t hesitate to ask, as I am here to help you improve your bowling!

    Also, have a read of my articles on PitchVision, which you can access all the links through my website here. I hope all this helps and all the best Tom.

    Regards

    Max.

    [​IMG]
     
  16. someblokecalleddave

    someblokecalleddave Well-Known Member

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    Good to see you're still interested in the game Tom now you're 18, noted that you had a look in last night. Once my older son, who's your age started his GCSE's, he used that as an excuse not to play anymore. I suspect the same will happen the same with younger son this year, which will be a real shame, so for you to come through and still be playing at 18 is good news for everyone involved in your team and you yourself. Are you doing a level 3 qualification - how will that affect your cricket next year?
     
  17. TomBowler97

    TomBowler97 Member

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    Hi Dave,

    Currently doing an Apprenticeship as a PE teaching assistant, so will still have my weekends to carry on playing!
     
  18. someblokecalleddave

    someblokecalleddave Well-Known Member

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    Sounds interesting Tom, hope it goes well and leads to something rewarding, if you end up a teacher, hope you'll be encouraging cricket at the place you work!
     
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  19. TomBowler97

    TomBowler97 Member

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    Will do Dave, I have already been given the go ahead to run the cricket club/team in the summer!
     
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Put it out there