Half-ball Grip

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sadspinner said:
It is the grip he says is orthodox for a leg break, and has a picture. Slightly different from the warne grip
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Two up two down - I just looked - its the standard leg break grip but you have to realise when you start out this is the orthodox method and is just a starting point to get you going. If you read further Phiplott goes on to say that people have different variations of it. But this version in the books is pretty much what most Wrist Spinners bowl.
 
Sort of, but the hand forms a cup and is futher in the hand rather than towards the fingers. There was a picture in the first chapter or 2 of his book if I remember well. I think if you see the picture it becomes obvious what he means by a half cup.
 
sadspinner said:
Sort of, but the hand forms a cup and is futher in the hand rather than towards the fingers. There was a picture in the first chapter or 2 of his book if I remember well. I think if you see the picture it becomes obvious what he means by a half cup.
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I don't really like the half cup grip. To me having the ball more out towards the tips of the fingers relaxes the hand more and provides for more flexibility of the wrist.
 
In PHILPOTT's book Fig 12-13 (Pg 21).. it is half ball grip where the mount of venus (of thumb) and middle phalynx of thumb is touching the ball particularly the seam which means the inner palm/ base of the fingers are partially touching the ball. this sort of grip is important and necessary for adoption for the young age spinners for better grip as the size of the ball may be bigger than the hand. bowler may feel the ball better....this grip suits the wrist spinner predominantly....rather than the leggies who tend to use fingers only....

in fig 28-29-30 (pg 33) where various type of spin described, the palm is much away from the ball hence it is mainly negotiated by the fingers only... this is more suited for the finger spinners where finger force is mainly turning the ball...

It is not the question of right or worng rather the comfortability and how much you are spinning the ball maintaining good line & length, drift, loop etc.
Another important observation is that the young spinners (less than 13-14 yrs group) tends to push the ball at the last stage of delivery (to gain speed/ momentum in a 22yard pitch) by pushing the hand in forward direction (as if trying to do flipper variety). This is more common for the group of young spinner WHO ARE GRIPPING THE BALL WITH TIP OF THE FINGERS. I have managed to counter this situation by asking the kids to hold the ball more closely like in Fig 12-13 so that Mount/ middle phalynx curvature touches seam of the ball. it is also helping them to spin using wrist and finger both...

Another important views to share here.. Is it necessary to touch seam by the tip of the thumb while leg spinning??? I feel it is only helpful while doing the TOP SPIN delivery or FLIPPER one bcoz at that time forward thrust to the ball can be generated more by involving thumb...
 
highesteem1 said:
In PHILPOTT's book Fig 12-13 (Pg 21).. it is half ball grip where the mount of venus (of thumb) and middle phalynx of thumb is touching the ball particularly the seam which means the inner palm/ base of the fingers are partially touching the ball. this sort of grip is important and necessary for adoption for the young age spinners for better grip as the size of the ball may be bigger than the hand. bowler may feel the ball better....this grip suits the wrist spinner predominantly....rather than the leggies who tend to use fingers only....

in fig 28-29-30 (pg 33) where various type of spin described, the palm is much away from the ball hence it is mainly negotiated by the fingers only... this is more suited for the finger spinners where finger force is mainly turning the ball...

It is not the question of right or worng rather the comfortability and how much you are spinning the ball maintaining good line & length, drift, loop etc.
Another important observation is that the young spinners (less than 13-14 yrs group) tends to push the ball at the last stage of delivery (to gain speed/ momentum in a 22yard pitch) by pushing the hand in forward direction (as if trying to do flipper variety). This is more common for the group of young spinner WHO ARE GRIPPING THE BALL WITH TIP OF THE FINGERS. I have managed to counter this situation by asking the kids to hold the ball more closely like in Fig 12-13 so that Mount/ middle phalynx curvature touches seam of the ball. it is also helping them to spin using wrist and finger both...

Another important views to share here.. Is it necessary to touch seam by the tip of the thumb while leg spinning??? I feel it is only helpful while doing the TOP SPIN delivery or FLIPPER one bcoz at that time forward thrust to the ball can be generated more by involving thumb...
Click to expand...

I think as you're saying here, the size of the hand plays a big part in the way that you bowl. I often ask people about how they put spin on the ball and kids especially show you their grip and it is often very 'Fingery'. There's a kid in my sons team who is 13 and he bowls the ball (Chinaman) and gets it to turn almost at right angles to the line of flight, when I asked him how he was releasing the ball he showed me his grip and the ball was very high in the hand and it looked as though he was bowling and imparting the spin using his fingers primarily. When asked to be more specific he couldn't say 'I just bowl it, but I don't know how I do it was his reply'. Thinking about it and looking at this his grip was similar to Benauds.
 
What are peoples feelings about this observation. One of the reasons that Leg Spinners get more spin on the ball is that it is launched from a far more stable base, the ball sits in the hand poised on the 3rd finger as such, but supported by the rest of the hand which holds it in place. The 3rd finger is backed up with support from the little finger. In a way the means by which the ball is launched has similarities with a trebuchet - the hand and the fact that the leg spinner grip cradles the ball with a steady base has similarities with the bucket support used in terbuchets.

Whereas the finger spinner has the ball situated far higher in the hand poised between two fingers. It strikes me, that the base from which the finger spinners ball is launched isn't as solid as the Leg spinner half cup mode of release and therefore could never impart the same level of spin?

One of the observations that I've made recently with regards my own bowling that has come on massively is that previously when I bowled without the use of the cocked wrist the method with which I launched the ball was very 'Fingery' and was characterised by inconsistent line and length and lessening degrees of turn with an increase in arm speed. Since returning to the use of the cocked wrist, one of the main observations I've made is that the cocked wrist approach seems to provide a far more stable base from which to launch the ball. With this stable base attribute, it has meant that my arm speed is far quicker and the ball is now easily ripped off the third finger with incredible ease and consistency. The ball is now spinning from the hand with the neccesary combination of over-spin and side spin that facilitates the phenomenon of drift and dip. All these improvements seem to be consistent with the fact that the correct grip offers such a stable base?
 
Another important principle of spinning is Degree of rotation happening around its own axis same as earth’s rotational movement around its own axis. Leggies have an advantage of rotating the ball of around 250-270 degrees (Big Leg spin) as from cocking position to the point of delivery time. This is much less around 50- 80 degrees for Off spin. This movement occurs due to strong anti clock wise wrist movement for a right handed leggies from 6 o’clock to 10 o’clock position.

Moreover for leg spin support fingers (Index to little) and palm are generating the force on the ball to rotate more whereas in offspin it is mainly managed by index, middle finger and thumb.

Finger’s spinner can generate high rotation better than the half cup mode of release in case of top spin bcoz they are getting better torque by TIP of the Thumb which is generating counter pressure to other fingers as it happens like a hand spinning top.

By cocking of wrist the external force/ torque can be generated more which in turns help better spin. It will also help to maintain better L/L as it is closely negotiated by whole hand rather than by only fingers (which Dave called as close stable base).
 
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