Leg Spin Bowling Follow Up .... Feed Back Please

Top Contributors
highesteem1

highesteem1

Member
Dear xperts
(@ active participant/coach/players/biomechanic expert)

After a long gap i am back again... here is latest vid clips of my son.

feedback will be appreciated

best

 
I'm with Macca, that's one sweet action, not too much to change from there...but just to be a spoilsport there's always something worth changing :D

It appears because his bodyweight isn't going through at his target that he's not making the most of the leading arm 'bracing' with his left leg. This tends to negate the maximum amount of sidespin that you can get and also can lend your arm to being too vertical.

All in all though I wished I had that action when I was younger, would mean I don't have the dodgy action I have now!
 
By the way...my son has represented Bengal U 14 (Development Squad) Team (state from where Sourav Ganguly played his cricket) this year and did very well in tournaments. facing real hardship as Kolkata is 1500 Km away from Delhi. based on his excellent performance at U 14 level he was called for U 15 Bengal team to tour Bangladesh for 2 test matches (3 day test) & 3 onedays. He has performed very well against Bangladesh national side. it was a nice experience for a young boy where he took 7 wickets in 1 test & 3 onedays & became most economical bowler (great achievements for a Leggy). Bengal team won all 3 oneday & won both tests based on 1st inns lead.

His perf at Bangladesh are here::
1st test match:---
1st inns: 15-3-22-2 Econ:1.47
2nd inns: 22-9-24-2 Econ: 1.09
1st Oneday: 10-1-39-2 Econ: 3.9
2nd Oneday: 8-0-40-1 Econ: 5.00
3rd Oneday: 6-0-18-0 con: 3.00
I wish all senior coaches/ xperts / AND ofcourse spin lovers will encourage him continuously by giving technical/ analytical input.

all the best
 
highesteem1 said:
By the way...my son has represented Bengal U 14 (Development Squad) Team (state from where Sourav Ganguly played his cricket) this year and did very well in tournaments. facing real hardship as Kolkata is 1500 Km away from Delhi. based on his excellent performance at U 14 level he was called for U 15 Bengal team to tour Bangladesh for 2 test matches (3 day test) & 3 onedays. He has performed very well against Bangladesh national side. it was a nice experience for a young boy where he took 7 wickets in 1 test & 3 onedays & became most economical bowler (great achievements for a Leggy). Bengal team won all 3 oneday & won both tests based on 1st inns lead.

His perf at Bangladesh are here::
1st test match:---
1st inns: 15-3-22-2 Econ:1.47
2nd inns: 22-9-24-2 Econ: 1.09
1st Oneday: 10-1-39-2 Econ: 3.9
2nd Oneday: 8-0-40-1 Econ: 5.00
3rd Oneday: 6-0-18-0 con: 3.00
I wish all senior coaches/ xperts / AND ofcourse spin lovers will encourage him continuously by giving technical/ analytical input.

all the best
Click to expand...

Absolutely outstanding effort from the youngster. His action is superb as far as i am concerned and i wouldn't change a thing. For the most part he is gone beyond tinkering with how he bowls and should be checked to make sure he doesn't alter what he does too much. Even from the clips you can see the great overall shape of his deliveries.

Look, I have no hesitation in saying he is one of the best young legspinners, if not the best, I have seen on youtube and am not surprised he represents the great state of Bengal.
 
Very Anil Kumble. I like it a lot. He's got the shape right. In these clips anyway.

Next step is using his entire body..... not just the arm. In higher performing leagues he needs to learn work ethic.
What I mean by work ethic is in two methods: in his action, and in his psychology.

Action-wise: If he wants to go to the higher levels, every delivery (one day) he needs to use what feels like every fibre of his body (minus the arm and shoulder) to bowl. I look at his action and it is very arm oriented.

****I was going to write something slightly alarmist... but I've edited it out****

Find methods of using leg muscles. More of his front shoulder. He definitely stretches that back shoulder.... find something similar in his lower body. He'll find more dip and curve.

The delivery where he gets the batsman to sweep, beats the batsman for dip and curve .... gets the batsman playing the wrong line: there are some very interesting mechanics in there that differ from the other deliveries. Something to really look at.


Psychologically: bowling with every fibre of your body is HARD. Think of fast bowlers who run 30 km in a test day. And all that extension and abduction of muscles to bowl a mere 80mph. Now double that sum extension and abduction for the leg spinner, because in India -- seam bowlers are NOT going last as long as Peter Siddle in Melbourne. 40-60 overs per inning of spin -- no sweat (pardon the ironic pun). Hence the subcontinent there are a lot of spinners as you well know. He's got a lot of time till he reaches 15-18 before the eyes of important scouts and selectors start thinking of him for higher duties. If he gets the psychology of a work horse -- he'll be valuable to any state/provincial team in the subcontinent.
 
doctortran said:
Very Anil Kumble. I like it a lot. He's got the shape right. In these clips anyway.

Next step is using his entire body..... not just the arm. In higher performing leagues he needs to learn work ethic.
What I mean by work ethic is in two methods: in his action, and in his psychology.

Action-wise: If he wants to go to the higher levels, every delivery (one day) he needs to use what feels like every fibre of his body (minus the arm and shoulder) to bowl. I look at his action and it is very arm oriented.

****I was going to write something slightly alarmist... but I've edited it out****

Find methods of using leg muscles. More of his front shoulder. He definitely stretches that back shoulder.... find something similar in his lower body. He'll find more dip and curve.

The delivery where he gets the batsman to sweep, beats the batsman for dip and curve .... gets the batsman playing the wrong line: there are some very interesting mechanics in there that differ from the other deliveries. Something to really look at.


Psychologically: bowling with every fibre of your body is HARD. Think of fast bowlers who run 30 km in a test day. And all that extension and abduction of muscles to bowl a mere 80mph. Now double that sum extension and abduction for the leg spinner, because in India -- seam bowlers are NOT going last as long as Peter Siddle in Melbourne. 40-60 overs per inning of spin -- no sweat (pardon the ironic pun). Hence the subcontinent there are a lot of spinners as you well know. He's got a lot of time till he reaches 15-18 before the eyes of important scouts and selectors start thinking of him for higher duties. If he gets the psychology of a work horse -- he'll be valuable to any state/provincial team in the subcontinent.
Click to expand...

Dear Doctortran....

Hmmm Excellent observation, rather we are eagerly waiting for this sort of feedback.

by the way we expect ur critical feedback which u have edited out please (i really mean it). this will help him to grow further. we need unedited comments please...! :)
if u can see the clips again... please help me to correct few specific observations which we are working on it...
  1. distance between back leg (on bowling crease) & pivot leg (near popping crease) is definitely more than the distance between pivot leg & follow up landing of back leg (2ft ahead of popping)..!! i hope it is clear??
    • Reason we feel may be back leg knee is coming too close to the pivot leg's knee thereby fanning out of back leg is less hence forward thrust of body is less!!
    • Can it be due to underdeveloped thigh muscle, thereby holding on pivot leg is not optimum !!
  2. Like most of the sub continant leggies, he has more over the head action than round arm... do we need to be little bit round arm to get more rip/ spin??
thanx again for these important feedback for further development..

Edit:
  1. Uncocking of wrist is not sufficient enough while releasing the ball... do we need to work on it??
please comment...
 
What are you working on ? decreasing the first stride or increasing the 2nd? You have to tie it in with the his non bowling arm as well if you muck around at that critical point.

Can he in an exercise stop before he delivers with his weight on his right foot and retain his balance?

If he came down to Australia to live I would want him more roundarm and even a little more side on but it depends a lot on the wickets he bowls on. It is a long term aim for him to be able to go a bit more one way or the other depending on conditions.

Yeah like most everyone he could work on his wrist flick, in some of the other clips of your son you can see he does cock the wrist well and in a good position.

We do that work on wrist uncocking exercises mostly as a seperate thing so as its not something he has to think about when actually bowling. I am sure you are doing stuff like that anyway.[/quote]
 
macca said:
What are you working on ? decreasing the first stride or increasing the 2nd? You have to tie it in with the his non bowling arm as well if you muck around at that critical point.

Can he in an exercise stop before he delivers with his weight on his right foot and retain his balance?

If he came down to Australia to live I would want him more roundarm and even a little more side on but it depends a lot on the wickets he bowls on. It is a long term aim for him to be able to go a bit more one way or the other depending on conditions.

Yeah like most everyone he could work on his wrist flick, in some of the other clips of your son you can see he does cock the wrist well and in a good position.

We do that work on wrist uncocking exercises mostly as a seperate thing so as its not something he has to think about when actually bowling. I am sure you are doing stuff like that anyway.
Click to expand...
[/quote]

Yes macca...

we are trying few things to improve upon the situation
  1. holding the front foot little bit more while pivoting or delaying the delivery for fraction of sec that will help him to extend the follow through leg.
  2. firming up the non bowling arm more (currently he is droping it early in a flow).
  3. lifting the back leg more and trying to convince him not to bring it closer to the knee of front leg.
WE THINK ALL THESE ARE BECOZ OF WEAK MUSCLE MASS !!! HOPE ALL THIS WILL BE CORRECTED AS HE BECOME OLDER...

he can not hold longer while he is in pivot though he can balance himself while in pivot.

Today we notice one important thing which i must share

while bowling in 4-5 step run up (during warm up) he can spin the ball much more than while bowling in proper long run up.
what we feel, currently in academy he is bowling to older kids (16-18 yrs boys) thereby he is trying to be quicker thru the air. in that process his hip rotation become weak rather slow, to be more specific it looks like he is bowling with enough upper body movement BUT lower half become slow to react.

any comments!!!
 
Not a criticism, but a further question to all - I notice highesteem has a small pause at the top of his delivery stride. Isn't that cutting down the momentum generated by his runup? I ask this because I find myself bowling better when I give myself short pause (when my back leg lands)too. But, I've always felt that I need to work to get rid of that pause over a long term.
 
I reiterate what I said; at 0:05 he has aiming at about off-middle yet his body weight is angling toward gully, same again at 0:10 & 0:14, at 0:15 he's landed on leg or outside and his body weight is heading toward 1st to 2nd slip.

When your body weight direction is that extreme angle to where the ball is going you reduce the amount the hips can rotate through, this effectively nullifies the hips and the leading arm in helping in the spinning of the ball. (I may not have explained it that well but if you walk it through or visualise it you'll get what I mean).
 
leftie600 said:
I reiterate what I said; at 0:05 he has aiming at about off-middle yet his body weight is angling toward gully, same again at 0:10 & 0:14, at 0:15 he's landed on leg or outside and his body weight is heading toward 1st to 2nd slip.

When your body weight direction is that extreme angle to where the ball is going you reduce the amount the hips can rotate through, this effectively nullifies the hips and the leading arm in helping in the spinning of the ball. (I may not have explained it that well but if you walk it through or visualise it you'll get what I mean).
Click to expand...
I think his body weight direction is ok because in his run up he is going towards his target. It is only after his pivot that he moves towards gully, right? After you pivot as much as possible you can't really continue down the pitch because you will be facing towards gully.
 
highesteem1 said:
Dear Doctortran....

  1. distance between back leg (on bowling crease) & pivot leg (near popping crease) is definitely more than the distance between pivot leg & follow up landing of back leg (2ft ahead of popping)..!! i hope it is clear??
    • Reason we feel may be back leg knee is coming too close to the pivot leg's knee thereby fanning out of back leg is less hence forward thrust of body is less!!
    • Can it be due to underdeveloped thigh muscle, thereby holding on pivot leg is not optimum !!
please comment...
Click to expand...

Yes. Well figured out. His leg follow-through is definitely too close to the front knee, or in your words -- he doesn't fan out the back leg as much as you want. Indicates inefficiencies.

I agree with what you have said about delaying the action. It is a necessary thing to learn. But the biggest problem with delaying the action is flow. The only way to do it -- without having a Saeed Ajmal LONG delay mid-action.... which I think will stop Ajmal from having a great test career(relying too heavily on a doosra).... is a later right arm movement. In the baseball business it's called a later hand break.

Kumble's action is instructive.



Begin the action. Touch the ball with both hands. Wait till later in the action till you break the hands. This will do two things. Improve co-ordination, and after he's mastered it -- it will create a division in the mind of leg movement and arm movement. Each component of which has to be worked on.

Next step is improving the leg drive. The leg spinner should have a pre-stretch for the arm in the action. As in the shoulder should almost be cocked back. Or feel like it is cocked back. SO SHOULD THE LEG!!!!!!!

And this is where the argument that you shouldn't bowl across yourself falls dead flat on its face. I'm sorry -- but you cannot pre-stretch your arm, or pre-stretch your leg without looking like you are bowling across yourself. Especially because the easiest pre-stretch feeling comes from lateral rather than forward and back stretching.

In other words -- watch Kumble's alignment in the video. Watch the direction of the front arm. It moves way out to the left -- improving pre-stretch of the torso (potential energy). His back leg is stretched WAY back and WAY behind the front leg (potential energy). His right shoulder through delivery is also stretched slightly back (potential energy).

In the end the fanning out of the back leg may not be corrected -- but if you pre-stretch you get something better... his natural ending is congruent with a powerful beginning. And that is VERY IMPORTANT -- your action's beginnings must be congruent with its endings. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Every reaction that the body doesn't intend leads to compensation from the body to protect itself. The body is great at finding areas of compensation -- terrible to executing it.
 
big kev said:
I think his body weight direction is ok because in his run up he is going towards his target. It is only after his pivot that he moves towards gully, right? After you pivot as much as possible you can't really continue down the pitch because you will be facing towards gully.
Click to expand...
I agree with what you're saying about pivoting but that's not what I'm seeing, to me the pivot isn't down the line of the pitch nor is it at the target. Compare where the kids pivot and where he ends up when compared to Kumble in doctortran's video above and the attached for Warne (ridiculously high standard but you'll see what I mean?) Hopefully I'm wrong but I have seen kids who look for all the world like everything's fine but they are essentially shouldering the ball on to the target while the body goes off in a different direction.

 
There is nothing that needs correcting with the action at the moment. The challenge is to maintain a strong action through the teenage growth spurt.
 
What I remember somewhere is that do not mess with a kid's bowling action unless there is a specific problem which has a specific solution.
 
big kev said:
What I remember somewhere is that do not mess with a kid's bowling action unless there is a specific problem which has a specific solution.
Click to expand...

Absolutely - the golden rule of coaching is to start with a specific problem out on the pitch and then try to identify a flaw in the action that might be causing it. Looking for flaws in the action without knowing what the problem is you're trying to fix is putting the cart before the horse. The best you can hope for is no change in performance. More realistically, you're going to be creating problems. If it ain't broke...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top