Leg Spin Bowling Follow Up .... Feed Back Please

Make Changes when you are young:
You could get better.
It is universally known in education that ability to learn declines with age.
3000 reps you need to ingrain new dynamics as an adult is reduced in youth.
Changes made in youth results in thousands of more deliveries of experience than if you make changes at 20.
Except scouts watch you from ages 15-21.
Except ability to be creative declines with age.

Use these suggestions as ideas to spark more ideas:
Such as when I suggested to Chippyben to direct the front shoulder. He then began to move his shoulder forward toward the batsman -- creating more spin and turn. I did not give him the idea -- but through discussion you can create better ideas.

The future of coaching is not to read a book and follow word for word -- but to be creative and take in lots of information and work out for yourself.

The patterns that people have in youth do not improve with age.... they carry on.
The idea of the perfect action does not exist. Because it hasn't been designed yet. And any knowledge any of us has
is built purely on craft and experience -- hardly definitive.

Yes if it ain't broke don''t fix it. But I write not to repair, but to contribute to not before talked about ideas in these forums. If your contribution is -- this kid's action is perfect.....

So DISCLAIMER: Do not take any advice here definitively. Use to your own discretion. All decisions you make are your own.

But this is exactly how it should be. BigCricket should be hotbed of new and innovative ideas on bowling.

Of course everything I've suggested is not exactly innovative... lol. Or new....
 
Make Changes when you are young:
You could get better.
It is universally known in education that ability to learn declines with age.
3000 reps you need to ingrain new dynamics as an adult is reduced in youth.
Changes made in youth results in thousands of more deliveries of experience than if you make changes at 20.
Except scouts watch you from ages 15-21.
Except ability to be creative declines with age.

Use these suggestions as ideas to spark more ideas:
Such as when I suggested to Chippyben to direct the front shoulder. He then began to move his shoulder forward toward the batsman -- creating more spin and turn. I did not give him the idea -- but through discussion you can create better ideas.

The future of coaching is not to read a book and follow word for word -- but to be creative and take in lots of information and work out for yourself.

The patterns that people have in youth do not improve with age.... they carry on.
The idea of the perfect action does not exist. Because it hasn't been designed yet. And any knowledge any of us has
is built purely on craft and experience -- hardly definitive.

Yes if it ain't broke don''t fix it. But I write not to repair, but to contribute to not before talked about ideas in these forums. If your contribution is -- this kid's action is perfect.....

So DISCLAIMER: Do not take any advice here definitively. Use to your own discretion. All decisions you make are your own.

But this is exactly how it should be. BigCricket should be hotbed of new and innovative ideas on bowling.

Of course everything I've suggested is not exactly innovative... lol. Or new....

Nice reply Doc, very much in the spirit of these spin threads.
 
I reiterate what I said; at 0:05 he has aiming at about off-middle yet his body weight is angling toward gully, same again at 0:10 & 0:14, at 0:15 he's landed on leg or outside and his body weight is heading toward 1st to 2nd slip.

When your body weight direction is that extreme angle to where the ball is going you reduce the amount the hips can rotate through, this effectively nullifies the hips and the leading arm in helping in the spinning of the ball. (I may not have explained it that well but if you walk it through or visualise it you'll get what I mean).

Yes lefti.. by saying (...body weight is angling toward gully) did u mean that he is falling backward, i mean his centre of gravity is shifting backwards!!! (it is a Serious concern then). I am convinced that if pivot foot is not far away towards the left , hip rotation will be weak... ( In young KIDS, HIP rotation is much more depends on the muscle mass particularly Gluts/ quadri apart from the landing of pivot leg).
 
Not a criticism, but a further question to all - I notice highesteem has a small pause at the top of his delivery stride. Isn't that cutting down the momentum generated by his runup? I ask this because I find myself bowling better when I give myself short pause (when my back leg lands)too. But, I've always felt that I need to work to get rid of that pause over a long term.

dear shrek
Can u specify the frame where u have noticed the pause... (PAUSE for a leggie is not welcome)

i have meant pause in my prev posting NOT as pause by S Ajmal (Holding the ball for fraction of sec!!). what I mean is controlled action so that a bowler can react instantly to the action of the batsman like ( dancing down the pitch, inside out shots). a spinner should have few fraction of secs during the approach of the delivery so that he can change his length/ line/ speed/ type of ball after seeing the preemptive movement of the batsman...afterall their approach is much slower than a pace bowler. he should not bowl in such a flow that he can not change instantly even though a batsman changes his approach. to be more specific, shoulder/ forearm muscle should be controlled by the bowler's thinking process.

u r right one may loss his momentum if he give pause in between..... BUT to compensate he should have strong forearm & shoulder so that he can bowl without much changes in the quality of bowling....
 
Yes lefti.. by saying (...body weight is angling toward gully) did u mean that he is falling backward, i mean his centre of gravity is shifting backwards!!! (it is a Serious concern then). I am convinced that if pivot foot is not far away towards the left , hip rotation will be weak... ( In young KIDS, HIP rotation is much more depends on the muscle mass particularly Gluts/ quadri apart from the landing of pivot leg).
No, he is definitely not falling backwards, if he was I'd imagine everyone here would pick it up in a flash! I agree with your view on kids and hip rotation, they lack the power that will come through the teenage years. Again it should be added that the kids action is fantastic, it feels wrong to mention anything but I guess you have asked the question?

Before I go on any further I agree with doctortran's view that this forum is a place to share, discuss and test ideas. If something's not broken don't try to fix...but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try and understand it.

My view of legspin is that it's a balance between the levers that aid side spin (the hips coming round, the arm angle, the wrist and the fingers) and those that help to propel the ball down the pitch (the momentum forward, the hips coming forward so that they can come round, the shoulder and the fingers). What you find is that if one bit isn't playing it's part then the others have to step up to make up the difference, what I think I'm seeing is that because the momentum is not at the target or parallel to the line of the target then the shoulder is making up the difference and pushing 'away' from the body.

How I see this affecting the bowling; with the shoulder effectively pushing 'away' from the body a leg spun delivery is slightly 'squared up' meaning that it tends toward being more a topspinner rather than a legbreak. This is fine as long as you are aware that this is what you are doing, tough for a kid to be aware of though.
How I see this potentially being a problem (big emphasis on 'potentially'!); when you are reliant on your momentum being at a particular angle to your target how do you fix it when you start to get the angle wrong?
 
By all means, try to understand the action but LEAVE THE BOY ALONE!

The adjustments he needed to make have been done so and anybody can see that this action is already in transition according to his age. It is organic and although I can see a few anomalies, I can also see the reason for them... none are technical! Any attempt to tweak his action will only result in throwing him totally off course.

He is obviously getting good coaching but if you really want to improve, take your son to a Performance Analyst. At his level, you can not improve him remotely; you need somebody to get inside his head and help him activate some unused muscles. Alternatively, leave him alone until he grows, strengthens and becomes more in tune to his proprioception.
 
Not a criticism, but a further question to all - I notice highesteem has a small pause at the top of his delivery stride. Isn't that cutting down the momentum generated by his runup? I ask this because I find myself bowling better when I give myself short pause (when my back leg lands)too. But, I've always felt that I need to work to get rid of that pause over a long term.

Hi Shrek,

I would need to see your action but if it IS the same, you are using the principles of plyometrics. In layman's terms, you are 'winding up' internal energy by contracting eccentrially... a bit like a trebuchet! If performed correctly, it will add power and therefore range and pace. Is this what you find?
 
Shrek I noticed a little pause too and I find that when I "pause" on my back leg landing I get better rhythm. Ive thought
about this a lot and I see it this way. The pause isnt actually a pause, just a slight delaying of the action so everything
works in coordination. I think of the bowling action and the way to get most power as a domino effect from the right foot
all the way up the body to the spinning finger. I think what Philpott terms, 'using all the levers'.
So firstly the back foot lands, it has to go down a little before it starts to go back up so this is where the pause comes
in. As the back foot lands though even as the knee is bending down it is important that momonetum is still going forward. I
think about it as "riding on the back foot" I have to force myself to do this small delay as it is not natural for me yet.
 
From here the power starts. The toes start pushing up, the ankle, then the knee straightens then the hips start to open up,
the torso and upper body open up in response to the hips, the shoulder rotates then the arm goes with it, until finally the
cocked wrist straightens and this whole train of power culminates in the ball spinning off the spinning finger.
 
Ive obviously neglected the front arm and braced front leg for this. I see the front arm as an extra lever to help the
power go up the right side of the body and the braced front leg as the anchor to pull against and over.
It took me a long time to work out that I was really only bowling with my shoulder and arm as this was rushing ahead of a
good coordinated action. A result of my fast bowling past no doubt.
 
Thanks to Doctortrans tips this is what I have put together, even though at times I didnt understand some things the more I
practised and thought about them things started to fall into place.
 
No, he is definitely not falling backwards, if he was I'd imagine everyone here would pick it up in a flash! I agree with your view on kids and hip rotation, they lack the power that will come through the teenage years. Again it should be added that the kids action is fantastic, it feels wrong to mention anything but I guess you have asked the question?

Before I go on any further I agree with doctortran's view that this forum is a place to share, discuss and test ideas. If something's not broken don't try to fix...but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try and understand it.

My view of legspin is that it's a balance between the levers that aid side spin (the hips coming round, the arm angle, the wrist and the fingers) and those that help to propel the ball down the pitch (the momentum forward, the hips coming forward so that they can come round, the shoulder and the fingers). What you find is that if one bit isn't playing it's part then the others have to step up to make up the difference, what I think I'm seeing is that because the momentum is not at the target or parallel to the line of the target then the shoulder is making up the difference and pushing 'away' from the body.

How I see this affecting the bowling; with the shoulder effectively pushing 'away' from the body a leg spun delivery is slightly 'squared up' meaning that it tends toward being more a topspinner rather than a legbreak. This is fine as long as you are aware that this is what you are doing, tough for a kid to be aware of though.
How I see this potentially being a problem (big emphasis on 'potentially'!); when you are reliant on your momentum being at a particular angle to your target how do you fix it when you start to get the angle wrong?

Dear leftie...

Clarifying ur views does not mean that I am feeling wrong !!...absolutely NOT. Rather these views will enlighten our thought process to think differently AND update the kids accordingly in a simplier way....:)
By the way I am also convinced about ur ideas of coordination of levers, squaring up, potential risks etc..

DONT take it otherwise...please carry on. I will be oblidged....:)
 
By all means, try to understand the action but LEAVE THE BOY ALONE!

The adjustments he needed to make have been done so and anybody can see that this action is already in transition according to his age. It is organic and although I can see a few anomalies, I can also see the reason for them... none are technical! Any attempt to tweak his action will only result in throwing him totally off course.

He is obviously getting good coaching but if you really want to improve, take your son to a Performance Analyst. At his level, you can not improve him remotely; you need somebody to get inside his head and help him activate some unused muscles. Alternatively, leave him alone until he grows, strengthens and becomes more in tune to his proprioception.

Hey Liz..

Nice to see u here (I hope u remember my son).. waiting for ur comments sincerely. U r right he is enjoying his bowling session himself..(NO interference from any body !!). BUT dont u think anomolies & their reason u have noticed need to be shared?? I am eagerly waiting to discuss & understand this issues as ur views are more biomechanical basis than technical issues of bowling.
it wl be great if u compare & analyse his initial vids with this one thru silicon coach. and share ur views.

expecting ur analytical post......:)
 
Of course I remember your son barmankr... I remember all the guys I work with! ;) He has grown so well and it is always a pleasure to see somebody who has taken all the professional advice on board. I am sure Orient would be just as impressed as I am. Do praise your son; he has a smashing action.​
Unfortunately I am a little swamped with the Olympics almost upon us but even if I were not I really could not help your son without consultation. You see, it is easy to talk about text book actions but they only go so far. Interestingly, I was only discussing this with other Level IV and III coaches last week that text books do not take the individual's physical attributes into consideration... a case of no one action fits all and when you get to this level you need to look elsewhere than pure technique.​
At the moment your son is inhibited by his level of strength and conditioning but this will come as he gets older. He also has issues with certain joint mobility but again, that will change as he goes through his growth spurt.​
I will not be on here much but will be back to Siliconcoach as soon as the Olympics are over.​
 
Hi Shrek,

I would need to see your action but if it IS the same, you are using the principles of plyometrics. In layman's terms, you are 'winding up' internal energy by contracting eccentrially... a bit like a trebuchet! If performed correctly, it will add power and therefore range and pace. Is this what you find?

Hey Liz,

Here's a video of my bowling action. I just asked my friend to shoot consecutive deliveries so obviously not all of them are good, and the inconsistency in landing obviously points to an action that hasn't yet been internalized completely. But, here is the link on dropbox:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2nrfjsfsqtylmze/Srikar Bowling.mov

Needless to say, it is open to all for dissection and suggestions. If it doesn't work for anyone here, I will upload it elsewhere.

Most obvious thing that I have to work on (and trying to do so) is the pivot and follow through. That will also solve my problem of getting in the umpire's line of sight

PS: Sorry highesteem for sort of hijacking your thread with my video- the pause I talked about doesn't seem as big in the video as it feels to me when I bowl.
 
I have absolutely no issue with your hang time Shrek; you are utilising your lower traps and serratus anterior which is essential to stabilise your shoulders... I like it very much.

However, your pivot is a tricky one to challenge. To be honest, actionwise, you are doing everything right; your weight is in the right place and pivot is there. It is just that YOU are not in the right place. If I were your coach, I would deconstruct it but I am not sure it is worth it if you are getting the outcome you want... ie your action is not going to hurt you or cause injury!

The problem is your run in. Again, the run in itself is good, it is just that you are at the wrong angle. When you reach the crease, you need to have your front foot facing down the wicket to work the pivot well. If you came in straight, without the angle you would be in the right position. However, this will impact on your bowling shoulder and accuracy.

There is a slight shoulder separation at bfc, again I am not worried about this from an injury point of view because you can take it. However, if you want to experiment try opening out the front leg a little more; at bfc rotate your front leg at the hip so your ff is facing more down the wicket. This will put YOU in the right place and reduce/eliminate the shoulder separation. Give it a go for a week and see what happens!
 
@Liz...I know u r busy with olympic schedule....

BUT Why @Dave is not posting valuable comments....ANGRY!!!!

here is side view action pls see this.....

 
@Liz...I know u r busy with olympic schedule....

BUT Why @Dave is not posting valuable comments....ANGRY!!!!

here is side view action pls see this.....



Main reason is I've got a lot of stuff going on in my life at the minute see here...

http://www.mpafirsteleven.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/joes-progress-5-pictures.html

In addition my own bowling is pretty poor at the minute and we're in the midst of the worst summer in UK weather history, so there's no cricket, no practicing... nothing. Looking at your bowling I would say that I need to be taking advice from you rather than me advising you! There's plenty of people who are far more knowledgable than me to discuss your bowling on here and as far as I can see they are giving you feedback and you're taking it on board.
 
The action for his age is beautiful... and a lot of the things that have been pointed out as far as i can see are just being noticed due to the request to find something... Although i do agree with his body direction at the crease, i think this is coming from an effort to try and get the ball through the air faster without the muscle mass to do so.
My suggestion would be (however far less credentialed than the others on here... so feel free to ignore me here) would be to learn the mental side of the game as far as a spinner is concerned (which I'm sure you already understand the importance of this anyway) rather than try and adjust his action too much until his body matures. From personal experience trying to keep your action together as you begin to grow is hard enough without trying to tinker small problems that may be resolved by increased strength anyway...
 
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