Leg Spin Horror - Some Disasters And How (maybe) To Avoid Them (i)

[Cleanprophet]

Great advice. I have just bought a 2 coloured ball. What should I look for when bowling with this?

Yes, everything SLA has said. Obviously, with leg spin you want the seam upright and pointed in the direction of 1st-2nd slip. What you may well find when you first use the ball is that the seam comes out with mostly side spin and ball is rotating on its side, rather than upright, so that it lands on the side of the ball and not on the seam. This is what happens when you bowl with an open hand and a wrist not cocked enough. You can then work away on getting over the ball and cocking the wrist, watching the ball as you do it and keeping working away until that seam is upright and pointed towards the slips.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

This is interesting in that the perfectly rotating seam issue seems to be getting mentioned here so much. I don't really take that much notice with regards to how the ball sits in the hand as a get hold of it and start making my way to the crease. As a consequence I reckon that I bowl with mostly a differing amount of scrambled seam and I've not been fussed on that as I've always thought of it as being a minor variation aspect. I'm looking at what you've been saying and I'm thinking perhaps this is one of the reason I rarely get the ball to drift?

 

[SLA]

This is interesting in that the perfectly rotating seam issue seems to be getting mentioned here so much. I don't really take that much notice with regards to how the ball sits in the hand as a get hold of it and start making my way to the crease. As a consequence I reckon that I bowl with mostly a differing amount of scrambled seam and I've not been fussed on that as I've always thought of it as being a minor variation aspect. I'm looking at what you've been saying and I'm thinking perhaps this is one of the reason I rarely get the ball to drift?

I only ever bowl with a scrambled seam (deliberately, as its far harder to pick the spin), and I get loads of drift, so I don't think it can be that.

 

[Cleanprophet]

This is interesting in that the perfectly rotating seam issue seems to be getting mentioned here so much. I don't really take that much notice with regards to how the ball sits in the hand as a get hold of it and start making my way to the crease. As a consequence I reckon that I bowl with mostly a differing amount of scrambled seam and I've not been fussed on that as I've always thought of it as being a minor variation aspect. I'm looking at what you've been saying and I'm thinking perhaps this is one of the reason I rarely get the ball to drift?

SLA says he gets plenty of drift with a scrambled seam. My experience is completely opposite to that. The more cleanly presented the seam, the more likely I am to get drift. I bowl a flipper and am able to flick the ball out with a clean seam. When the seam is pointed towards the slips (therefore, the ball has back spin and a bit of left to right spin or off-spin) it will drift away from the batter - but only when the seam is not scrambled.

I've watched lots and lots of leg spin on TV in the last couple of years (there's 3 or 4 Indian leg spinners in the IPL, Cremer for Zimbabwe, Borthwick, Beer and Rashid in England). All of them bowled a scrambled seam almost every time and none of them got any real drift.

I considered that some deliberately bowled with a scrambled seam because it is harder for the batter to spot. I have a couple of issues with that approach - whether they scramble it on purpose or are unable to bowl an upright seam:

1) Shane Warne presented the seam cleanly almost every time and he drifted the ball more than any other leg spinner. He never felt the need to scramble the seam (although, I'm sure he did do it at times in t20 games). If the ball is drifting and dipping, who cares if the batter can pick the leg spinner? You should be bowling the leg spinner 90% of the time anyway. I'd only concern myself about scrambling the seam for top spinners and side spinners.

2) I don't buy that batters see the seam position and react accordingly. I saw an interview with Nasser Hussien and he said he was always baffled when he heard this talk about seeing the seam and reacting to it because quite often you simply cannot see the seam of the ball or when you can you are focusing on the direction and flight of the ball and adjusting to that rather than trying to premeditate on the basis of seam position in the space 0.5 seconds. If there are batters who are able to do this, they will be the very, very best. For me, you don't need to worry about the seam position being scrambled. If you can get drift whilst it is scrambled, by all means go for it.

I remember seeing an interview with Terry Jenner and his opinion was that if you scramble the seam then you eliminate the potential for drift. I wouldn't say you eliminate the drift by scrambling the seam, and SLA says as much, but from what I have seen, heard and experienced myself, the seam position is very important. There's no doubt that the amount of revs you put on the ball is very important also. I noticed Steve Smith got a little bit of drift in the recent Ashes without having a cleanly presented seam. He was getting 2500-2600 revs on the ball, which is a decent amount. If you put that amount of revs on the ball, I'm sure you can drift it. As I say, my opinion is that if Smith had put 2500-2600 revs on the ball and had the seam upright he would have got much more drift.

 

[SLA]

SLA says he gets plenty of drift with a scrambled seam. My experience is completely opposite to that. The more cleanly presented the seam, the more likely I am to get drift. I bowl a flipper and am able to flick the ball out with a clean seam. When the seam is pointed towards the slips (therefore, the ball has back spin and a bit of left to right spin or off-spin) it will drift away from the batter - but only when the seam is not scrambled.

I've watched lots and lots of leg spin on TV in the last couple of years (there's 3 or 4 Indian leg spinners in the IPL, Cremer for Zimbabwe, Borthwick, Beer and Rashid in England). All of them bowled a scrambled seam almost every time and none of them got any real drift.

I considered that some deliberately bowled with a scrambled seam because it is harder for the batter to spot. I have a couple of issues with that approach - whether they scramble it on purpose or are unable to bowl an upright seam:

1) Shane Warne presented the seam cleanly almost every time and he drifted the ball more than any other leg spinner. He never felt the need to scramble the seam (although, I'm sure he did do it at times in t20 games). If the ball is drifting and dipping, who cares if the batter can pick the leg spinner? You should be bowling the leg spinner 90% of the time anyway. I'd only concern myself about scrambling the seam for top spinners and side spinners.

2) I don't buy that batters see the seam position and react accordingly. I saw an interview with Nasser Hussien and he said he was always baffled when he heard this talk about seeing the seam and reacting to it because quite often you simply cannot see the seam of the ball or when you can you are focusing on the direction and flight of the ball and adjusting to that rather than trying to premeditate on the basis of seam position in the space 0.5 seconds. If there are batters who are able to do this, they will be the very, very best. For me, you don't need to worry about the seam position being scrambled. If you can get drift whilst it is scrambled, by all means go for it.

I remember seeing an interview with Terry Jenner and his opinion was that if you scramble the seam then you eliminate the potential for drift. I wouldn't say you eliminate the drift by scrambling the seam, and SLA says as much, but from what I have seen, heard and experienced myself, the seam position is very important. There's no doubt that the amount of revs you put on the ball is very important also. I noticed Steve Smith got a little bit of drift in the recent Ashes without having a cleanly presented seam. He was getting 2500-2600 revs on the ball, which is a decent amount. If you put that amount of revs on the ball, I'm sure you can drift it. As I say, my opinion is that if Smith had put 2500-2600 revs on the ball and had the seam upright he would have got much more drift.

Different batsmen have different methods. When I'm batting I can always spot the position of the seam and predict the direction of spin accordingly. I always instantly spot a googly or flipper because the different seam angle is quite obviously different. Even if you scramble then, its still obviously different from your unscrambled legspinner. You have to scramble everything or nothing at all.

Warne didn't have much reason to scramble the seam because he didn't really use a googly. Other bowlers like Murali, Mushtaq, Ajmal, who rely on a genuine wrong'un as their main serious wicket-taking threat tend to bowl with a scrambled seam to make it harder to pick. That's my MO, so I bowl with a scrambled seam as much as possible for that same reason.

I've posted a video in the past of a ball with a scrambled seam drifting significantly. In indoor cricket we have balls without any seam whatsoever and although they don't turn much, the amount of drift you get is just crazy. All of the science I have read about drift and the Magnus force (or Robbin's force as Wilkins calls it) talks about the velocity and spin vector and number of revs and Reynald's regime, but it never identifies the presence or angle of the seam as a factor whatsoever.

The amount a baseball pitch curves is enormous - far greater than Warne has ever made a ball drift - but pitchers are taught to throw the ball cross seam because it makes the ball "grip the air" more. So that is the direct opposite advice to a cricket bowler presenting the seam. I don't know for sure, but I imagine with all the money in baseball that some hard science has been done to test this theory.

 

[Cleanprophet]

In football/soccer, the ball swerves through the air when the player kicks across the side of the ball and puts side-spin on the ball. Of course, there is no seam on a football/soccerball. My opinion has always been that putting big revs on the ball is the most significant factor in getting movement on the ball through the air. Bowling with the seam upright means you will land the ball on the seam and get maximum traction and, subsquently, turn. On a pitch with very little wear, the ability to land it on the seam is important to get some movement off the pitch.

I was thinking about this when I was down at the nets today. My feeling was that getting drift was largely down to big spin, but that seam position played a part. That might be wrong, but my experience is that the ball drifts more when the seam is upright and that was certainly the opinion of Terry Jenner. I know Dave says he knows a 12yo kid who gets the ball to drift. It may simply be that this kid has a really good flick of the wrist and puts impressive revs on the ball for a 12yo.

The baseball one is interesting. I'd like to know much spin pitchers get on the ball. The other thing I would mention is that I definitely find that getting the ball through with decent pace is important too. I can put big side spin on the ball and bowl about 45mph and it won't drift much at all. Once I bowl with a bit more over spin and at 55mph, the dirft is much more obvious. Pitches throw the ball through the air at much quicker speeds. It follows, of course, that the quicker the ball moves through the air, the more resistance the ball encounters. Therefore (as you say), the combination of the velocity and the revs is crucial to the ball gripping the air.

I'd love to see much more testing done on this. A ball with 3000 revs bowled at 45mph versus a bowl with 2500 revs bowled at 55mph. It would be interesting to see which one created more sideways movement through the air. If you could put 2000 revs on the ball and bowl at 60mph+ it could be move huge amounts. However, I'm sure that the technique required to put 2000 revs on the ball is just too difficult to produce with the arm speed required for 60mph+.

Bowling with a scrambled seam makes sense for a bowler who bowls a lot of top spinners and wrong 'uns. It is something you see more of in limited overs games where batters attack a lot more and bowlers use variations much more often.

 

[SLA]

In football/soccer, the ball swerves through the air when the player kicks across the side of the ball and puts side-spin on the ball. Of course, there is no seam on a football/soccerball. My opinion has always been that putting big revs on the ball is the most significant factor in getting movement on the ball through the air. Bowling with the seam upright means you will land the ball on the seam and get maximum traction and, subsquently, turn. On a pitch with very little wear, the ability to land it on the seam is important to get some movement off the pitch.

I was thinking about this when I was down at the nets today. My feeling was that getting drift was largely down to big spin, but that seam position played a part. That might be wrong, but my experience is that the ball drifts more when the seam is upright and that was certainly the opinion of Terry Jenner. I know Dave says he knows a 12yo kid who gets the ball to drift. It may simply be that this kid has a really good flick of the wrist and puts impressive revs on the ball for a 12yo.

The baseball one is interesting. I'd like to know much spin pitchers get on the ball. The other thing I would mention is that I definitely find that getting the ball through with decent pace is important too. I can put big side spin on the ball and bowl about 45mph and it won't drift much at all. Once I bowl with a bit more over spin and at 55mph, the dirft is much more obvious. Pitches throw the ball through the air at much quicker speeds. It follows, of course, that the quicker the ball moves through the air, the more resistance the ball encounters. Therefore (as you say), the combination of the velocity and the revs is crucial to the ball gripping the air.

I'd love to see much more testing done on this. A ball with 3000 revs bowled at 45mph versus a bowl with 2500 revs bowled at 55mph. It would be interesting to see which one created more sideways movement through the air. If you could put 2000 revs on the ball and bowl at 60mph+ it could be move huge amounts. However, I'm sure that the technique required to put 2000 revs on the ball is just too difficult to produce with the arm speed required for 60mph+.

Bowling with a scrambled seam makes sense for a bowler who bowls a lot of top spinners and wrong 'uns. It is something you see more of in limited overs games where batters attack a lot more and bowlers use variations much more often.

Are you sure that the reason that the "well presented" deliveries seem to drift more is not because that the same optimum release mechanism that makes the ball come out of your hand perfectly also imparts the optimum number of revs?

 

[Cleanprophet]

Are you sure that the reason that the "well presented" deliveries seem to drift more is not because that the same optimum release mechanism that makes the ball come out of your hand perfectly also imparts the optimum number of revs?

That is possible. What I need to do is bowl with a scrambled seam and see if I can still get drift. It may well be that my action came together at the same time that I started bowling with a cleanly presented seam. I reckon I could possibly put more revs on the ball if I bowled a scrambled seam. My spinning finger can sometimes fail to get maximum traction on the ball as I deliver the ball (basically, it slips a little). I have very dry hands, so on cold days I have to keep moistening my fingers. Holding the ball for a scrambled seam would allow that spinning finger to push against the seam rather than having flick up along the seam. Hence, preventing the spinning finger slipping any amount at all.

I'll give that a go tomorrow and see if I can get decent revs on it and whether it still drifts.

I wouldn't mind a batter watching the seam because I bowl a version of the flipper that has the seam in exactly the same position as the leg spinner. The difference is, of course, that the flipper is spinning backwards and with a little bit of left-to-right spin rather than spinning towards the slips, as the leg spinner will do.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Jesus this really messing with my head now! But on the CP point about the flipper is that not swing rather than drift? I bowl a number of flippers and they shift in the air a lot but I've always thought that was swing because the seams far more upright in my case?

 

[SLA]

Jesus this really messing with my head now! But on the CP point about the flipper is that not swing rather than drift? I bowl a number of flippers and they shift in the air a lot but I've always thought that was swing because the seams far more upright in my case?

Any time the seam is upright is probably swing. I know a medium pacer who bowls a back of the hand slower ball (basically a topspinner) that has seam upright and swings as much as his stock ball.

 

[Darth Spin]

Jesus this really messing with my head now! But on the CP point about the flipper is that not swing rather than drift? I bowl a number of flippers and they shift in the air a lot but I've always thought that was swing because the seams far more upright in my case?

Haha. Messing with my head, too. I think I prefer to leave the intricacies of drift as a mystery. I like it that way. Some of my deliveries drift, but not hugely. D'ya get my drift?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Haha. Messing with my head, too. I think I prefer to leave the intricacies of drift as a mystery. I like it that way. Some of my deliveries drift, but not hugely. D'ya get my drift?

Well that's the kind of thing that both Macgill and Gazendum both said, but it still doesn't help me with the fact that I get it so rarely and so infrequently!

 

[Cleanprophet]

on the CP point about the flipper is that not swing rather than drift? I bowl a number of flippers and they shift in the air a lot but I've always thought that was swing because the seams far more upright in my case?

Yeah, I suppose you could call it swing. But, most cricketers will simply refer to all sideways movement as swing (whether it is seam position or spin that caused the movement). To be exact, I really don't know whether it is seam position or spin that cause the ball to move away from the batter. The seam is positioned for an away-swinger, but there is also a decent amount of off-spin on the ball. Both of these things would cause the ball to drift/swing away from the batter. Could well be a combination of seam position and spin.

I tried bowling with a scrambled seam yesterday. I got a little bit of drift, but just found it a little uncomfortable to bowl. For me, I'll stick with bowling with the seam.

 

[Darth Spin]

Well that's the kind of thing that both Macgill and Gazendum both said, but it still doesn't help me with the fact that I get it so rarely and so infrequently!

I concur with the view that it depends on the amount of revs. When a footballer doesn't get enough curl on a shot to bring it inside the post and it goes wide, he hasn't put enough side spin on. When he takes a free kick from the edge of the box and it doesn't get up over the wall and down under the crossbar in time he hasn't put enough top spin on. I think of a wrist spinner in the same way.

 

[SLA]

Well that's the kind of thing that both Macgill and Gazendum both said, but it still doesn't help me with the fact that I get it so rarely and so infrequently!

From looking at your youtube clips dave, you bowl with a very high arm action, and the majority of your balls seem to have 80-90% topspin on them. Those that do turn also drift a little bit if you look closely.

High arm actions are great for dip but not so much for drift. You get a nice controlled amount of spin on the ball, but I wouldn't say you were really ripping it like Warne. You don't look like you're shouting huuurrghh! every time you explode through the crease and fizz the ball down there. its just a nice, controlled, consistent action.

What I'm saying is that you look like a decent bowler, your high arm action means you get plenty of dip, your googly looks good and is difficult to pick, but its not altogether surprising that you don't get enormous drift because you don't seem to be putting huge amounts of sidespin on the ball. Every bowler is different. Biomechanically, you're more of a Mushtaq than a Warne.

 

[Darth Spin]

This has nothing to do with leg spin but definitely has some horror. First ball square in the box. Next ball... I won't spoil it. For best results don't read the words underneath until after viewing.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11140958

 

[someblokecalleddave]

From looking at your youtube clips dave, you bowl with a very high arm action, and the majority of your balls seem to have 80-90% topspin on them. Those that do turn also drift a little bit if you look closely.

High arm actions are great for dip but not so much for drift. You get a nice controlled amount of spin on the ball, but I wouldn't say you were really ripping it like Warne. You don't look like you're shouting huuurrghh! every time you explode through the crease and fizz the ball down there. its just a nice, controlled, consistent action.

What I'm saying is that you look like a decent bowler, your high arm action means you get plenty of dip, your googly looks good and is difficult to pick, but its not altogether surprising that you don't get enormous drift because you don't seem to be putting huge amounts of sidespin on the ball. Every bowler is different. Biomechanically, you're more of a Mushtaq than a Warne.

Nice one SLA, I'd never say I was good bowler, I have games when it comes together, usually towards the back-end of the season, probably when my fitness comes together I'd say. Yeah I'm probably a little long in the tooth and have started far too late in life for it to come together for me in a way that I'd be totally happy with. I was only thinking today, there's a bloke in my team who's younger than me, but carrying a lot of additional weight and he does a very sedentary job at home. The idea of doing exercise would make him convulse, but he's only a few years younger than me and yet he seems to bowl so much faster than me (Left arm orthodox). The point you make about Mushtaq/Warne might apply in a comparison with me and him, he's a portly stocky bloke - think 'Worlds strongest men' comps, they're all fat lads and I've got very little in the way of fat on me?

I've often wondered if it is a case of me just not having fast arm speed which someone has mentioned as being important a few years back on here. I've tried that, but again, possibly because of my age and the fear of rotator cuff injuries I always pull back from doing that a lot because it causes obvious stress on my shoulder sockets/joint. With regards to the effort I put in, sometimes I do, but again it's usually an end of season phenomenon as per above.

Early this season I started to work with this exercise 3.00 in and this seemed to make a big difference this year, but it takes a while for all these things to come together and perhaps a whole season to get some sense of whether it is making a noticeable impact. I've been tweaking what I do for years now and it does seem that I'm ready (Body allowing) for a reasonable season next year because a lot of things came together and worked well. I didn't video much of it last year at all because it felt like a distraction and I decided to simply get on with it.

The arm thing yeah you're right there as well and many people have said about it and yeah you're probably right in your analysis, but that's another season of work trying to get the arm lower I'd say and that'll have to be 2015!!! I just want to be bowling as I was at the end of the season just gone this coming season and not be working on any fixes or tweaks. I suppose if I start off well I might look at lowering the arm? But your observations are useful and make sense and will be something I'll consider, maybe as you say I should look to capitalise on the arm thing and try and get the over-spin working for me more effectively?

 

[SLA]

The arm thing yeah you're right there as well and many people have said about it and yeah you're probably right in your analysis, but that's another season of work trying to get the arm lower I'd say and that'll have to be 2015!!! I just want to be bowling as I was at the end of the season just gone this coming season and not be working on any fixes or tweaks. I suppose if I start off well I might look at lowering the arm? But your observations are useful and make sense and will be something I'll consider, maybe as you say I should look to capitalise on the arm thing and try and get the over-spin working for me more effectively?

I would definitely say to look at capitalising on what you've got and not trying to lower your arm or make any more changes to your action.

I would say, don't worry too much about getting huge drift or massive turn, because thats not the type of spinner you are. Work on pitching that topspinner/legbreak perfectly on a line and length 6 balls out of 6 and watch as batsman after batsman are fooled by the dip and slice the ball to cover. If you can mix in a googly as well, particularly when facing left handers, that would help. If you're not confident with you googly, then just show it to each batsman once and then put it away.

 

[SLA]

A comment on variations like the googly:

If you're not confident about it at all, show it to each batsman once just to make him look out for it from then on, then put it away.

If you're quite confident about it, then hold it back until the right moment, and then throw it in there and hope it catches them off guard.

If you're really confident about, then bowl it all the time, and leave the poor sap completely confused as to what's coming next.

 

[Darth Spin]

If you're really confident about, then bowl it all the time, and leave the poor sap completely confused as to what's coming next.

That's how I feel about my wrong un more or less. I'll need to use it more next season. Not all the time but before the end of the second over and then periodically after that. I've started to alternate between them and leg breaks in the second hour of my practices, with the odd flipper thrown in. The flipper is more at quite confident level but I don't mind when it's off line because people still have a bit of trouble with it.