Off Spin Bowling

[90degreeTURNS]

Hey fella's,
I'm a 15 year from Australia and an old off spin bowler who bowls for his local club and for representative teams. I bowl in the morning on saturdays for my Under 16's side and in the afternoon for the 2nd XI seniors team.

When i first arrived to this forum and to Youtube i find that there isn't much to learn from for an Off-break bowler. I have started a Youtube account (which at the end of this thread will be linked) to show off my progress with my normal off-break, top-spinner, and my SUDUKO known to most as the Carrom Ball or the Ivesson Gleeson Method.

The reason i will upload these videos is for comments for me to listen and take aboard to get the best action and amount of spin from all my variations as i possibly can.

I look foward to discussing thoughts on other threads and hope we can all help each other out when possible.

Cheers all from 90degreeTURNS

My Youtube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/90degreeTURNs?feature=mhee
Off Spin Bowling Tutorial :

 

[SLA]

Hey fella's,
I'm a 15 year from Australia and an old off spin bowler who bowls for his local club and for representative teams. I bowl in the morning on saturdays for my Under 16's side and in the afternoon for the 2nd XI seniors team.

When i first arrived to this forum and to Youtube i find that there isn't much to learn from for an Off-break bowler. I have started a Youtube account (which at the end of this thread will be linked) to show off my progress with my normal off-break, top-spinner, and my SUDUKO known to most as the Carrom Ball or the Ivesson Gleeson Method.

The reason i will upload these videos is for comments for me to listen and take aboard to get the best action and amount of spin from all my variations as i possibly can.

I look foward to discussing thoughts on other threads and hope we can all help each other out when possible.

Cheers all from 90degreeTURNS

My Youtube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/90degreeTURNs?feature=mhee
Off Spin Bowling Tutorial :

Yeah, the best thing for a fingerspinner is to give the ball a big rip, stick to a good full length, bowl intelligent lines to a good field, and mix up your pace and flight (aka backspin and topspin). If you can bowl some kind of wrong'un every now and then you've got the weapons to dismiss any batsman.

 

[90degreeTURNS]

Yeah, the best thing for a fingerspinner is to give the ball a big rip, stick to a good full length, bowl intelligent lines to a good field, and mix up your pace and flight (aka backspin and topspin). If you can bowl some kind of wrong'un every now and then you've got the weapons to dismiss any batsman.

Yeah i am working on the Carrom Ball like the Indian spinner Ashwin bowls

 

[SLA]

Yeah i am working on the Carrom Ball like the Indian spinner Ashwin bowls

I bowl my wrong'un out of the front of my hand using a technique that may approximately be described as a "reverse flipper". You squeeze the ball out between 2nd finger and thumb but in the opposite direction to usual. I think its both easier to bowl and harder to pick than both the saqlain doosra and the carrom ball.

I've drawn a picture:

...

Ever heard of this before Dave? I can't find anything about it on google.

 

[90degreeTURNS]

I bowl my wrong'un out of the front of my hand using a technique that may approximately be described as a "reverse flipper". You squeeze the ball out between 2nd finger and thumb but in the opposite direction to usual. I think its both easier to bowl and harder to pick than both the saqlain doosra and the carrom ball.

I've drawn a picture:

View attachment 119


Ever heard of this before Dave? I can't find anything about it on google.

I have heard of Clarrie Grimmetts and i have been practicing his version of the Off-spinning flipper for another way to bowl a wrong'un.

I have also heard of Dave and watch his videos. Thats where i found out about the Off-spinning flipper.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

I bowl my wrong'un out of the front of my hand using a technique that may approximately be described as a "reverse flipper". You squeeze the ball out between 2nd finger and thumb but in the opposite direction to usual. I think its both easier to bowl and harder to pick than both the saqlain doosra and the carrom ball.

I've drawn a picture:

View attachment 119


Ever heard of this before Dave? I can't find anything about it on google.

See the potential of the Flipper is boundless! The top one is the Off-Spinning Flipper, which as you've said can be use in place of the Wrong un - Jim 2109 was an exponent of this and I use it ocassionally, but the interesting thing is you've shot the image with the seam the wrong way so that it would come out scrambled and therefore might be some weird sub-variation like a Off-Spinning Flipper/Slider! With the potential for the ball not to break if it lands on the smooth stuff and bounce break erratically if it landed on the seam.

The other one - well that just sounds impossible to me, but I'd imagine the Finger spinners may be able to produce it? Again cos of the seam presentation it has the same attributes as the ball above?

 

[offbreakdoosra]

I bowl my wrong'un out of the front of my hand using a technique that may approximately be described as a "reverse flipper". You squeeze the ball out between 2nd finger and thumb but in the opposite direction to usual. I think its both easier to bowl and harder to pick than both the saqlain doosra and the carrom ball.

I've drawn a picture:

View attachment 119


Ever heard of this before Dave? I can't find anything about it on google.

See the potential of the Flipper is boundless! The top one is the Off-Spinning Flipper, which as you've said can be use in place of the Wrong un - Jim 2109 was an exponent of this and I use it ocassionally, but the interesting thing is you've shot the image with the seam the wrong way so that it would come out scrambled and therefore might be some weird sub-variation like a Off-Spinning Flipper/Slider! With the potential for the ball not to break if it lands on the smooth stuff and bounce break erratically if it landed on the seam.

The other one - well that just sounds impossible to me, but I'd imagine the Finger spinners may be able to produce it? Again cos of the seam presentation it has the same attributes as the ball above?

Hello SLA,

The "Reverse Flipper" delivery you describe sounds very much like a delivery I can bowl. It does indeed behave like an overspinning wrong'un (as the thumb automatically/unintentionally put some off spin on the ball)

From your pictures, my grip differs slightly - My thumb is higher up the ball but the index and middle finger is further back too. But it is still effectively a "Reverse Flipper" in the sense that the fingers and thumb do the exact opposite of the orthodox flipper (i.e the thumb 'drags' the ball backwards, where as the index and predominately the middle finger 'pushes' it forward)

There is tension in the grip - the 'drag back' vs 'push forward' release means the ball is squeezed out of the hand with a healthy amount of spin. (i'm not sure your delivery is the same experience)

Interestingly too, it seems you hold the othodox flipper almost exactly how i would. I find having thumb, index & middle finger on the seam is too much grip. Having the thumb directly on the seam with two fingers either side of the seam allows the fingers to pull the ball back a little more freely.

This all brings me to a little theory of mine though...

I reckon the Flipper, and Iverson/Gleeson deliveries are part of the same family. They all ultimately rely on the tension between the thumb and middle finger to generate spin. In all these deliveries the ball is squeezed out of the fingers and thumb...

Any thoughts, anyone?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Hello SLA,

The "Reverse Flipper" delivery you describe sounds very much like a delivery I can bowl. It does indeed behave like an overspinning wrong'un (as the thumb automatically/unintentionally put some off spin on the ball)

From your pictures, my grip differs slightly - My thumb is higher up the ball but the index and middle finger is further back too. But it is still effectively a "Reverse Flipper" in the sense that the fingers and thumb do the exact opposite of the orthodox flipper (i.e the thumb 'drags' the ball backwards, where as the index and predominately the middle finger 'pushes' it forward)

There is tension in the grip - the 'drag back' vs 'push forward' release means the ball is squeezed out of the hand with a healthy amount of spin. (i'm not sure your delivery is the same experience)

Interestingly too, it seems you hold the othodox flipper almost exactly how i would. I find having thumb, index & middle finger on the seam is too much grip. Having the thumb directly on the seam with two fingers either side of the seam allows the fingers to pull the ball back a little more freely.

This all brings me to a little theory of mine though...

I reckon the Flipper, and Iverson/Gleeson deliveries are part of the same family. They all ultimately rely on the tension between the thumb and middle finger to generate spin. In all these deliveries the ball is squeezed out of the fingers and thumb...

Any thoughts, anyone?

The thing I've never quite understood as you've kind of alluded to here is why don't finger spinners embrace Flippers? I reckon all the Flippers have far more in common with Finger Spinning than they do with Wrist Spinning and yet the association seems to be with wrist spinning. I can kind of see that because of the fact that it was Grimmett that developed the Flipper from the lob bowlers and he's the Granddaddy of Wrist Spin that the association was made and carried on through history. But, now with the incredibly easy dissemination of information e.g. the internet you'd kind of expect that there may be a new generation of kids that bowl with finger spin that might experiment with the Flippers and perhaps make them theirs?

 

[offbreakdoosra]

The thing I've never quite understood as you've kind of alluded to here is why don't finger spinners embrace Flippers? I reckon all the Flippers have far more in common with Finger Spinning than they do with Wrist Spinning and yet the association seems to be with wrist spinning. I can kind of see that because of the fact that it was Grimmett that developed the Flipper from the lob bowlers and he's the Granddaddy of Wrist Spin that the association was made and carried on through history. But, now with the incredibly easy dissemination of information e.g. the internet you'd kind of expect that there may be a new generation of kids that bowl with finger spin that might experiment with the Flippers and perhaps make them theirs?

It's an valid point.

I can only suggest that finger spinners don't embrace the othodox flipper is due the fact that to release the flipper, you have to bowl with a leg break approach/action. Such as drastic change in action would easily be picked up by batsmen.

That's why i'm rather impressed with the Carrom ball R Ashwin is currently bowling. Predominately an off spin bowler, with the thumb and middle finger concept i mention, he mangages to disguise his leg spinning Carrom ball to fool bowlers that the delivery is an off break.

Traditional off-spin does not untilise the thumb in this manner. Plus i believe it to be a much more legitimate delivery than the "controversial" doosra. (despite my avatar)

 

[someblokecalleddave]

It's an valid point.

I can only suggest that finger spinners don't embrace the othodox flipper is due the fact that to release the flipper, you have to bowl with a leg break approach/action. Such as drastic change in action would easily be picked up by batsmen.

That's why i'm rather impressed with the Carrom ball R Ashwin is currently bowling. Predominately an off spin bowler, with the thumb and middle finger concept i mention, he mangages to disguise his leg spinning Carrom ball to fool bowlers that the delivery is an off break.

Traditional off-spin does not untilise the thumb in this manner. Plus i believe it to be a much more legitimate delivery than the "controversial" doosra. (despite my avatar)

Thing is I reckon without exception most of us on here are club players and maybe if you play at a reasonably high standard against first XI and perhaps 2nd XI teams its likely that most of the batsmen you bowl against are not going to have a clue what you're bowling if anything other than a Leg Break of Right Arm off-break finger spin ball, so I reckon there's scope for finger spinners to have a look at the Flipper especially if they use some of the more obscure versions?

 

[offbreakdoosra]

Thing is I reckon without exception most of us on here are club players and maybe if you play at a reasonably high standard against first XI and perhaps 2nd XI teams its likely that most of the batsmen you bowl against are not going to have a clue what you're bowling if anything other than a Leg Break of Right Arm off-break finger spin ball, so I reckon there's scope for finger spinners to have a look at the Flipper especially if they use some of the more obscure versions?

True again. The flipper is useful to have in any spinners armoury and particularly effective bowled to those not able to read it.

I think ultimately many wrist spinners find the othordox flipper difficult enough to bowl, plus convention suggest it's part of the wrist spinners armoury hence finger spinners don't think of it as an option.

 

[SLA]

Thing is I reckon without exception most of us on here are club players and maybe if you play at a reasonably high standard against first XI and perhaps 2nd XI teams its likely that most of the batsmen you bowl against are not going to have a clue what you're bowling if anything other than a Leg Break of Right Arm off-break finger spin ball, so I reckon there's scope for finger spinners to have a look at the Flipper especially if they use some of the more obscure versions?

I think there are several reasons. For one thing, the thumb flipping action produces the same spin as the usual finger action of the fingerspinner, so you're simply learning a different technique to achieve something you can already do. The benefit of "flipping" the ball with the thumb involved is that it doesn't require the arm to twist to generate the revolutions, which means it can be disguised quite easily, hence why its a useful potential variation for a wrist spinner; however it is initially harder to master and subsequently control than the finger + arm twist that the orthodox finger spin uses.

So all in all there is not much call for a variation that is both initially difficult to master and simply does the same thing as your stock delivery - which is what the flipper (either orthodox backspinner or offspinning) is for a finger spinner.

Hence I don't actually bowl the flipper as a variation for the reasons above. The reverse flipper (which is released from the front of the hand and spins like a legbreak) is something I use regularly - the powerful finger action means that you can twist your arm just like a offspinner but simultaneously flip the ball out with legspin. it's difficult to control the length, but it spins a good 6 inches and I'm told its very difficult to pick from the hand.

If you want a feel for how to bowl it, try clicking your fingers starting with your 2nd finger pressed against your thumb, but instead of letting the finger slide down the inside so the thumb ends up next to the 1st finger, force the 2nd finger down the outside of your thumb so the thumb ends up touching the 3rd finger. That's the reverse flipper, and whatever wrist angle you use, it will produce the opposite spin to the orthodox flipper. It's probably completely useless for a legspinner, but for an offspinner it could be used as either a wrong'un, a topspinner or a backspinner depending on the wrist position - it doesn't hurt your fingers like the carrom ball, and you don't have to bend your elbow like the doosra.

I think this is a reasonable shout at a genuinely "new" delivery - I've never heard of a professional using it and its certainly far more original that "Rajan's mystery ball".

 

[SLA]

I reckon the Flipper, and Iverson/Gleeson deliveries are part of the same family. They all ultimately rely on the tension between the thumb and middle finger to generate spin. In all these deliveries the ball is squeezed out of the fingers and thumb...

Any thoughts, anyone?

Yes, I'd agree with that - I think there are four main techniques of generating spin on the ball, which can be used in combination:

cutters: simply change the grip on the ball as to allow the fingers to roll down the side as you release it. You can get a surprising amount of sidespin simply by doing this, but it will always have an element of backspin and never topspin, meaning its flight is predictable and hence its more suited to medium pacers.

twisters: physically twisting the arm at release: this is the most common technique, and is used by both fingerspinners and legspinners (the twist is in opposite directions of course). Can get spin in almost any direction simply by doing this.

wrist extension: this is more of a spin "multiplier": If you extend your wrist whilst using one of the two above techniques, you can get the same effect but with lots more revs on the ball. De rigeur amongst leggies, but only the double jointed Murali was able to master its use when bowling offspin.

flicking/flipping: generating spin on the ball by squeezing it between the fingers or between the fingers and thumb. Some fingerspinners do this between their first two fingers; whereas the flipper, the Iverson/Gleeson and the carrom ball all use the finger(s) and the thumb.

 

[offbreakdoosra]

I think there are several reasons. For one thing, the thumb flipping action produces the same spin as the usual finger action of the fingerspinner, so you're simply learning a different technique to achieve something you can already do. The benefit of "flipping" the ball with the thumb involved is that it doesn't require the arm to twist to generate the revolutions, which means it can be disguised quite easily, hence why its a useful potential variation for a wrist spinner; however it is initially harder to master and subsequently control than the finger + arm twist that the orthodox finger spin uses.

So all in all there is not much call for a variation that is both initially difficult to master and simply does the same thing as your stock delivery - which is what the flipper (either orthodox backspinner or offspinning) is for a finger spinner.

Hence I don't actually bowl the flipper as a variation for the reasons above. The reverse flipper (which is released from the front of the hand and spins like a legbreak) is something I use regularly - the powerful finger action means that you can twist your arm just like a offspinner but simultaneously flip the ball out with legspin. it's difficult to control the length, but it spins a good 6 inches and I'm told its very difficult to pick from the hand.

If you want a feel for how to bowl it, try clicking your fingers starting with your 2nd finger pressed against your thumb, but instead of letting the finger slide down the inside so the thumb ends up next to the 1st finger, force the 2nd finger down the outside of your thumb so the thumb ends up touching the 3rd finger. That's the reverse flipper, and whatever wrist angle you use, it will produce the opposite spin to the orthodox flipper. It's probably completely useless for a legspinner, but for an offspinner it could be used as either a wrong'un, a topspinner or a backspinner depending on the wrist position - it doesn't hurt your fingers like the carrom ball, and you don't have to bend your elbow like the doosra.

I think this is a reasonable shout at a genuinely "new" delivery - I've never heard of a professional using it and its certainly far more original that "Rajan's mystery ball".

 

[offbreakdoosra]

Ah,
Apologies if I've confused things here, from your newest post, I am now understanding that your stock delivery is an off spinner and the "reverse flipper" you call your wrong'un is a legbreak. (is that right?) I sort of picked up on this earlier, but the mention of the wrong'un automatically made me think you referring to a off spinning googly. The ambiguous lexicon of spin bowling strikes again.

Nonetheless, the description of my own delivery rings true, and I now reckon yours is indeed a unique delivery. But I also reckon the flicking/flipping off the thumb action allows many for many variations. The difficulty of the action is positioning the arm so as to release and deliver the ball with spin.

For example, I also bowl a leg break gripped much like the Iverson/Gleeson. However, the wrist is cocked slightly backwards, so the palm of the hand is facing the sky on release. The arm turned inwards slightly, so the thumb is pointing towards the body/extra cover. This is unlike any description of the flicking/flipping delivery I've read about, but it works for myself. I require this slight turn of the arm so as to effect t release of the the ball with generous spin.

Meanwhile, Ashwin,Gleeson and Mendis are able to bowl the leg break, with a bent middle finger, as a disguised off breaks, with seemingly no turn/cock of the wrist. This allow the leg break to look exactly like a off spinner. I am unable to do this. I can understand how the spin is generated but can not fathom how they releases then ball with his palm directly facing the batsmen and still generate suffice spin.

Still, with a thumb/middle finger grip I, myself, can effectively "go round the loop", bowling the leg break, a big wrong'un, the flipper and the aforementioned an over spinning wrong'un - all bowled win a wrist spinners approach to the crease.

I would suggest anyone attempting a flicking/flipping grip, to experiment with the position arm and wrist at the release point. This may lead to finding a unique finger flipping grip that works for you

 

[SLA]

Ah,
Apologies if I've confused things here, from your newest post, I am now understanding that your stock delivery is an off spinner and the "reverse flipper" you call your wrong'un is a legbreak. (is that right?) I sort of picked up on this earlier, but the mention of the wrong'un automatically made me think you referring to a off spinning googly. The ambiguous lexicon of spin bowling strikes again.

Nonetheless, the description of my own delivery rings true, and I now reckon yours is indeed a unique delivery. But I also reckon the flicking/flipping off the thumb action allows many for many variations. The difficulty of the action is positioning the arm so as to release and deliver the ball with spin.

For example, I also bowl a leg break gripped much like the Iverson/Gleeson. However, the wrist is cocked slightly backwards, so the palm of the hand is facing the sky on release. The arm turned inwards slightly, so the thumb is pointing towards the body/extra cover. This is unlike any description of the flicking/flipping delivery I've read about, but it works for myself. I require this slight turn of the arm so as to effect t release of the the ball with generous spin.

Meanwhile, Ashwin,Gleeson and Mendis are able to bowl the leg break, with a bent middle finger, as a disguised off breaks, with seemingly no turn/cock of the wrist. This allow the leg break to look exactly like a off spinner. I am unable to do this. I can understand how the spin is generated but can not fathom how they releases then ball with his palm directly facing the batsmen and still generate suffice spin.

Still, with a thumb/middle finger grip I, myself, can effectively "go round the loop", bowling the leg break, a big wrong'un, the flipper and the aforementioned an over spinning wrong'un - all bowled win a wrist spinners approach to the crease.

I would suggest anyone attempting a flicking/flipping grip, to experiment with the position arm and wrist at the release point. This may lead to finding a unique finger flipping grip that works for you

Ah yeah sorry I assumed people knew I was a fingerspinner. (Actually a slow left arm orthodox). My stock ball spins away from the right hander, and I use a reverse flipper out of the front of the hand as a surprise variation that spins back in. Its similar to Herath's carrom ball in its effect but executed with a totally different finger action. With a bit of concentration I can bowl the carrom ball and make it spin but its bloody difficult to pitch it accurately and it hurts my finger after a while.

 

[big kev]

Yes, I'd agree with that - I think there are four main techniques of generating spin on the ball, which can be used in combination:

cutters: simply change the grip on the ball as to allow the fingers to roll down the side as you release it. You can get a surprising amount of sidespin simply by doing this, but it will always have an element of backspin and never topspin, meaning its flight is predictable and hence its more suited to medium pacers.

twisters: physically twisting the arm at release: this is the most common technique, and is used by both fingerspinners and legspinners (the twist is in opposite directions of course). Can get spin in almost any direction simply by doing this.

wrist extension: this is more of a spin "multiplier": If you extend your wrist whilst using one of the two above techniques, you can get the same effect but with lots more revs on the ball. De rigeur amongst leggies, but only the double jointed Murali was able to master its use when bowling offspin.

flicking/flipping: generating spin on the ball by squeezing it between the fingers or between the fingers and thumb. Some fingerspinners do this between their first two fingers; whereas the flipper, the Iverson/Gleeson and the carrom ball all use the finger(s) and the thumb.

I am a legspinner but I started spinning the ball by bowling cutters, my grip was that of a normal fast bowler but I turned the wrist outward so much that my index and middle finger were pointing right out to my right. I have changed my grip into the normal legbreak grip but I still spin the ball with the same method, rolling the ball out of my middle finger, but I also get topspin instead of backspin. I know this because I have aligned the seam with my middle finger and it comes out with perfect seam and topspin, but the top of the seam is sometimes a little tilted towards me, so that I can see the seam at the top but not the bottom.

 

[SLA]

I am a legspinner but I started spinning the ball by bowling cutters, my grip was that of a normal fast bowler but I turned the wrist outward so much that my index and middle finger were pointing right out to my right. I have changed my grip into the normal legbreak grip but I still spin the ball with the same method, rolling the ball out of my middle finger, but I also get topspin instead of backspin. I know this because I have aligned the seam with my middle finger and it comes out with perfect seam and topspin, but the top of the seam is sometimes a little tilted towards me, so that I can see the seam at the top but not the bottom.

You must flex and extend your wrist though as well, surely? Otherwise how do you get your fingers round the front of the ball?

 

[SLA]

I tell you what, if you ever wanted to watch some good finger spin bowling, this is the test for you. 5 finger spinners in one test! Fantastic to watch.

 

[macca]

This all brings me to a little theory of mine though...

I reckon the Flipper, and Iverson/Gleeson deliveries are part of the same family. They all ultimately rely on the tension between the thumb and middle finger to generate spin. In all these deliveries the ball is squeezed out of the fingers and thumb...

Any thoughts, anyone?

I see they are related by the fact that Grimmett worked on an iverson style ball years before he worked out his flipper. So in a family sense they are siblings and Grimmett is their Daddy.

Grimmett had worked out how to bowl the "iverson" stuff way before Jack Iverson. Iverson developed his during the "Hitler War" but Grimmett worked it out before the "Kaiser War". In his teens in New Zealand he worked out a front of the hand wrongun using the iverson flick.

Grimmett used his third finger to straighten and impart the spin but he concluded that someone with big hands and stong fingers could use other digits. He used a tennis ball to start with but found it hard to bowl the delivery full distance with a cricket ball.

Grimmett gave up on the "iverson" method because his hands were not big enough and more importantly he reckons he couldn't get enough overspin with the finger straightening spin. And Grimmett was always big on topspin.

Grimmett used the Iverson flick to serve when he played table tennis but began working on a different way to spin a ball.

When Jack Iverson first played in Adelaide, Grimmett couldn't wait to meet him and tell him how pleased he was that someone had struck on the same idea as he had years before and developed it into a new delivery.