OFFspinBOWLER
New Member
I was just working around with a few type of actions to bowl a doosra and i want to know what action you know of or use. I'm working on the way saeed ajmals version with a few tweeks to his action
The Doosra
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someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Come on Offies - give the bloke some advice!!!
Well, as far as I understand, there are three ways of bowling a doosra.
The way used by murali and saqlain, where the wrist is turned so that the back of the hand is facing the batsman - and then slightly further. This is easy to throw, but ridiculously hard to bowl with a straight arm. I think I did one once, but it took me about 100 attempts.
The carrom ball aka the Iverson-Gleeson method, in which either the 2nd or 3rd finger flicks the ball out of the front of the hand with legspin at the moment of release. I can bowl this and get it to turn, but its hard to get the line right so I don't use it outside the nets. Herath and Mendis both bowl their doosras like this.
A legcutter off the 2nd finger bowled with an offspinner's action with the wrist extended throughout. This is the one I use in matches and get lots of wickets with- its not hard to bowl, and if you disguise it carefully then most batsmen can't pick it unless they are specifically looking for it.
The way used by murali and saqlain, where the wrist is turned so that the back of the hand is facing the batsman - and then slightly further. This is easy to throw, but ridiculously hard to bowl with a straight arm. I think I did one once, but it took me about 100 attempts.
The carrom ball aka the Iverson-Gleeson method, in which either the 2nd or 3rd finger flicks the ball out of the front of the hand with legspin at the moment of release. I can bowl this and get it to turn, but its hard to get the line right so I don't use it outside the nets. Herath and Mendis both bowl their doosras like this.
A legcutter off the 2nd finger bowled with an offspinner's action with the wrist extended throughout. This is the one I use in matches and get lots of wickets with- its not hard to bowl, and if you disguise it carefully then most batsmen can't pick it unless they are specifically looking for it.
OFFspinBOWLER
New Member
macca
Active Member
What about the legspinning flipper of grimmett as a doosra ? That's what jack potter was up to in the 60,s and he ended up teaching warnie the backspinning flipper of grimmett years later.
OFFspinBOWLER
New Member
Do you know where i can find a video of the grimmet leg spin flipper?
macca
Active Member
Not really, unless someblokecalledave has had a go at it on vids.
I dont think there is footage of jack potter bowling it.
Basically all your doing is bowling a flipper like warnes backspinning flipper but released to give legspin. Extremely hard to bowl over 22 yards.
Grimmett wrote that he mastered this ball and even used it in matches once or twice but he considered it an offspinners ball because that is what it looks like to the batsman.
Cec Pepper bowled it and so did jack potter. Sgt Pepper ( he really was in ww2 sgt pepper Beatle fans) and potter were excellent at grimmetts finger click spin. Grimmett showed Pepper. Potter showed Warne.
The legspinning flipper is like Saqlain's doosra but with an extra thumb flick. It's the delivery that every english school boy learns to flick out with a tennis ball, but I remain skeptical that it is possible to bowl with a straight arm. The doosra is difficult enough without getting the thumb involved, this would only be harder.
In general, I am doubtful of the usefulness of teaching and learning deliveries that no-one in the entire world seems to be able to bowl, and that there is no reliable evidence that anyone ever did, especially when there are easily mastered alternatives that are harder to pick and do exactly the same thing once they have left the hand.
In general, I am doubtful of the usefulness of teaching and learning deliveries that no-one in the entire world seems to be able to bowl, and that there is no reliable evidence that anyone ever did, especially when there are easily mastered alternatives that are harder to pick and do exactly the same thing once they have left the hand.
macca
Active Member
Good advice, do not attempt the impossible, it hurts
Its hard for fingerspinners to do anything without bending their arm isn't it ?
We legspinners only bend our arms after the game, at the bar.
I think any list of doosras has to include jack potters doosra, which many people have mistakenly labelled as the first doosra, even if just for historical purposes. Potter bowled it in oz and uk and was never no-balled for it.
Yeah its not on youtube so it doesn't exist for some people but if we believe the English Test offspinners of 1961 and Benaud, Potter could bowl a legbreak with an offspinners action they couldn't pick. He did it with grimmetts finger click flipper action.
I take grimmett at his written word he could bowl it and he tried it in at least club games. Grimmett was never no balled in his first class career. And only once in club cricket. So he must have bowled all his flippers to the umps satisfaction.
Its hard for fingerspinners to do anything without bending their arm isn't it ?
We legspinners only bend our arms after the game, at the bar.I think any list of doosras has to include jack potters doosra, which many people have mistakenly labelled as the first doosra, even if just for historical purposes. Potter bowled it in oz and uk and was never no-balled for it.
Yeah its not on youtube so it doesn't exist for some people but if we believe the English Test offspinners of 1961 and Benaud, Potter could bowl a legbreak with an offspinners action they couldn't pick. He did it with grimmetts finger click flipper action.
I take grimmett at his written word he could bowl it and he tried it in at least club games. Grimmett was never no balled in his first class career. And only once in club cricket. So he must have bowled all his flippers to the umps satisfaction.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
The Wrong Wrong Un do you mean? Or are you talking about what would be the Off-spinning Flipper for the RH bowler and therefore a Leg Break Flipper for the LH bowler?
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Yeah I think I have I used to have a clip of it with me spinning it across an empty room (Short distance) but for some reason on Youtube it used to get shed loads of really bad comments so I took it down. It's the one that a RH bowler would require that you bowl rotating the wrist and elbow clockwise like Murali in order to get the hand in position - the opposite to what we'd do to get the back of the hand in position for the wrong un?
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
I could knock up vids of the Tops-Spinner, Wrong Wrong Un, Out of the front of the hand Off-spinner flipper, the Flying saucer and the conventional one with a little pratice, but and here's the big but, I haven't got a camera that would capture what happens, I'm still working on it - trying to get my hands on one and to be honest when it came to it, I'm not sure how well they'd come out in actual execution especially the off-spinner and the Wrong wrong un as they're a bt erratic. Anyone got a hi-speed camera to loan me?
One of the younger members on here who is looking for a vocation in life needs to take up a course in photography to then move on to becoming a TV camera-man or better still editor for SKY or similar' so we can get some decent footage of these releases when the bowlers do their thing. Or we start an on-line campaign for the current editors to instruct the camera-men to stop filming hi-speed shots of balls coming off bats etc and focus on slow bowling and its complexities!!!!
macca
Active Member
In a match dave was the question so you will have to wait till next year.
There probably is some old footage of potter and pepper ( pepper bowled the reverse of potter a offbreak that looked a lot like a legbreak, well exactly like one according to don bradman who was fooled by the trick in 1946) and their flippers.
Wouldn't be very conclusive or instructive though. I've seen a blatant flipper bowled by hogg overanylysed into the reverse in the minds of some, everyone sees what they want to see,
There probably is some old footage of potter and pepper ( pepper bowled the reverse of potter a offbreak that looked a lot like a legbreak, well exactly like one according to don bradman who was fooled by the trick in 1946) and their flippers.
Wouldn't be very conclusive or instructive though. I've seen a blatant flipper bowled by hogg overanylysed into the reverse in the minds of some, everyone sees what they want to see,
I hate to contradict you SLA, but what you have said is not technically true:
The first delivery you describe is a doosra, on account of it being bowled in such a manner that the fingers cut down the left hand side of the ball, with the wrist and the palm of the hand either behind or on the right hand side of the ball. However, the second is generally known as a carrom ball (as popularised by Mendis and Iverson). The third is best described as a leg cutter delivered off the second finger.
How is this relevant? First off, there are several ways to bowl the doosra as defined, without recourse to iverson type grips etc. Secondly, having tried all three methods listed, I would undoubtedly recommend bowling a doosra as your delivery that goes the other way - you can get far more revolutions on the ball, I find i can bowl it fairly accurately, and its much harder to pick.
Trouble is, if you were taught to bowl offspin in the traditional manner (such as how Graeme Swann, Nathan Hauritz etc etc bowl it) then you will find it extraordinarily difficult to bowl the doosra. This is because the angle arm when viewed from above often is 10 or 20 degrees to the right of the motion of the ball through the release of the ball. As such it is very difficult to twist the wrist inwards enough so that the seam position at the point of release is directed towards the slips. To bowl unorthodox spin you have to do exactly that - abandon the methods taught to fingerspinning youngsters in the non-asian test playing nations and adopt an action more similar to that of the subcontinental greats - that of ajmal, or saqlain, or or even murali. Note that they all bowl the doosra in very different ways.
In other words, you'd be best off not listening to your coaches.There's a reason why coaching the doosra was banned (and continues to be banned) in Australia - it's simply incompatible with the fingerspinning technique they teach there . do what i did, and look at some videos of the bowlers who do bowl the doosra on youtube - ajmal's grip (middle finger stretched over the ball with the other fingers tucked behind it - google images it) is certainly not the same grip that you will be taught by an orthodox coach.
Fingerspin as taught by the vast majority of the world has historically been extremely weak, with legspin stealing the show. Break the orthodoxy, don't listen to your coaches (unless you wish to be confined to tossing the ball just outside offstump in the hope that it'll eventually pitch on some rough and turn), and look towards pakistan and sri lanka. There lie the actions you need to copy in order to be able to bowl both doosra and offspinner.
The first delivery you describe is a doosra, on account of it being bowled in such a manner that the fingers cut down the left hand side of the ball, with the wrist and the palm of the hand either behind or on the right hand side of the ball. However, the second is generally known as a carrom ball (as popularised by Mendis and Iverson). The third is best described as a leg cutter delivered off the second finger.
How is this relevant? First off, there are several ways to bowl the doosra as defined, without recourse to iverson type grips etc. Secondly, having tried all three methods listed, I would undoubtedly recommend bowling a doosra as your delivery that goes the other way - you can get far more revolutions on the ball, I find i can bowl it fairly accurately, and its much harder to pick.
Trouble is, if you were taught to bowl offspin in the traditional manner (such as how Graeme Swann, Nathan Hauritz etc etc bowl it) then you will find it extraordinarily difficult to bowl the doosra. This is because the angle arm when viewed from above often is 10 or 20 degrees to the right of the motion of the ball through the release of the ball. As such it is very difficult to twist the wrist inwards enough so that the seam position at the point of release is directed towards the slips. To bowl unorthodox spin you have to do exactly that - abandon the methods taught to fingerspinning youngsters in the non-asian test playing nations and adopt an action more similar to that of the subcontinental greats - that of ajmal, or saqlain, or or even murali. Note that they all bowl the doosra in very different ways.
In other words, you'd be best off not listening to your coaches.There's a reason why coaching the doosra was banned (and continues to be banned) in Australia - it's simply incompatible with the fingerspinning technique they teach there . do what i did, and look at some videos of the bowlers who do bowl the doosra on youtube - ajmal's grip (middle finger stretched over the ball with the other fingers tucked behind it - google images it) is certainly not the same grip that you will be taught by an orthodox coach.
Fingerspin as taught by the vast majority of the world has historically been extremely weak, with legspin stealing the show. Break the orthodoxy, don't listen to your coaches (unless you wish to be confined to tossing the ball just outside offstump in the hope that it'll eventually pitch on some rough and turn), and look towards pakistan and sri lanka. There lie the actions you need to copy in order to be able to bowl both doosra and offspinner.
That said if you want an easy alternative to the de facto doosra, a carrom ball can be an attractive option. Practice flicking the ball off your middle or ring finger and completing the delivery by bringing your hand over the top of the ball. Keep your wrist at the same angle as much as you can while doing so. Batsmen are less likely to pick you that way.