The Mind And Wrist Spin

Discussion in 'Spin Bowling' started by Billywhizz, Apr 20, 2016.

Put it out there
  1. SLA

    SLA Well-Known Member

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    Many finger spinners bowl a wrong'un out of the front of the hand that is extremely difficult to pick. The ball is squeezed out between 2nd and 3rd finger.
     
  2. leftie600

    leftie600 Active Member

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    That's not a wrong'un, sounds like something more in common with a carrom ball. I know the delivery, a few offies I know use it every now and then.
     
  3. leftie600

    leftie600 Active Member

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    Too true about non-cricketers, my mates think that because I bowl leggies that I mostly come on as a wicket taker. Couldn't be further from the truth, I get the 'crap' overs when attrition is needed against well set batsmen on flat wickets.

    Not entirely convinced on the difference in psych between offies and leggies. Another case of Warne's persona warping people's views, after all you wouldn't call Swann, Tufnell and Harbhanjah shy would you?
     
  4. SLA

    SLA Well-Known Member

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    Well technically, if it spins the wrong way, then its a wrong'un. Doesn't really matter how its done, whether its a doosra or a carrom ball or a leg-cutter.

    As an SLA, I get a lot of wickets just bowling a couple of stock balls outside off stump and then spinning one back in and the (right handed) batsman just stands there and lets it hit middle stump.
     
  5. SLA

    SLA Well-Known Member

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    I didn't mean it was a general difference in psyche - I just meant there happened to have been a lot of loud mouthed leggies in the past 20 years who liked to talk themselves up.

    Go back to the days of level-headed no-nonsense bowlers like Benaud or O'Reilly and they would have been perplexed with this idea of leg-spin being some kind of mystical skill for mavericks and outsiders.


    We had a leggie in our club for 4 seasons who bowled a slowish stock ball on a tight line and he wasn't a big wicket taker, but he rarely went for more than 2-3 an over which was extremely valuable.

    To be perfectly frank, I think this idea that all leg-spinners are bound to be expensive and captains should just accept it is an excuse that poor bowlers tell themselves after yet another half-tracker disappears into the trees. 10 overs, 4 tail end wickets for 70 isn't much good for anyone in a limited overs game.
     
  6. leftie600

    leftie600 Active Member

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    Well you said: "For whatever reason, leg-spinners have had a habit of being a bit more big-headed about their skills and shouting louder about all their variations."
    And that's what I replied on.

    "To be perfectly frank, I think this idea that all leg-spinners are bound to be expensive and captains should just accept it is an excuse that poor bowlers tell themselves after yet another half-tracker disappears into the trees."

    Damn straight, unfortunately it's another one of those myths that persist in the game just like how off-spinners should only be containing bowlers. I could bore this thread to tears with stories of how I was about to be dropped because I was viewed to bowl "loosely" and then I shoved the scorebook under the selectors noses to remind them of what I did.

    "Well technically, if it spins the wrong way, then its a wrong'un. Doesn't really matter how its done, whether its a doosra or a carrom ball or a leg-cutter."

    'Wrong'un' taken literally and then sure but the name has been claimed for some time as another name for a leg-spinners googly.
     
  7. boogiespinner

    boogiespinner Active Member

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    Both definitions are surely valid.

    If a bowler's stock ball was the googly and threw in the occasional legbreak, it would be confusing the legbreak a 'wrong'un' because it would conflict with the latter definition.
     
  8. leftie600

    leftie600 Active Member

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    Not bothered how you wish to define it.

    All I know is that with all the cricketers from various countries that I have played with and against if you said 'woung'un' they will assume you mean a googly. Standard as well in all the cricket books I have read.
     
  9. boogiespinner

    boogiespinner Active Member

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    When I was growing up there was no such thing as an offspinner's wrong'un really. At least, I don't remember seeing any such thing on the television. There was an 'arm ball' which swung a bit.
     
  10. leftie600

    leftie600 Active Member

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    The offies that I know and have known who bowl it refer to it as the "other one", never as the "wrong'un".

    It's pretty much as SLA has explained it, use the fingers to give the ball spin the opposite of offspin with the wrist starting in a position as you would for a standard offbreak. Tends to get batsmen that have got lazy and aren't actually watching what the bowler is doing.

    An arm ball is a pretty simple delivery that legspinners can bowl as well (depending on the base grip you use etc.).
     
  11. SLA

    SLA Well-Known Member

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    I think we're all agreeing here. For what its worth, "wrong'un" is pretty common usage in the UK for any ball that breaks in the opposite direction to that which the batsman was expecting. So it could be a googly, it could be a doosra, it could be something simpler as long as there is some attempt made to disguise it.

    If you don't believe me, it says it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin_bowling. (I know this because I wrote the entire spin bowling section on Wikipedia, lol)
     
  12. someblokecalleddave

    someblokecalleddave Well-Known Member

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    England's Top Spinners.

    Swanne - Finger Spinner
    Tufnell SLA
    Phil Edmunds - SLA
    Wilfred Rhodes - SLA
    Ashley Giles - SLA
    Headley Verity - SLA
    John Emburey - FS
    Fred Titmus - FS
    Tony Lock - SLA
    Jim Laker - FS
    Derek Underwood - SLA

    Anyone see a pattern emerging? The funny thing is most of them are doing what Leg-Spinner does - turns the ball away from the edge of the bat, yet there's not a single Leggie in there?

    Australia is different though. Their top spinners are all Leggies??? Must have something to do with having wall to wall sunshine and a climate that allows you to put in the hours learning how to learn wrist spin?;)
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2016
  13. SLA

    SLA Well-Known Member

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    As I'm sure we've discussed several times before, damper climates and softer pitches favour finger spinners, hotter climates and harder pitches favour wrist spinners.
     
  14. leftie600

    leftie600 Active Member

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    I'm still not conceding on the "wrong'un" thing, but I am in a different country so it's highly likely that similar terms will be used in different ways (which means Wikipedia needs updating, get to work SLA!).

    Back to the actual subject which is the mind of the wrist of spinner.

    A wrist spinner's psych should not be different to any spinner or even any bowler:
    - Be self-aware: Know your game inside and out, strengths and weaknesses as well as how you are whenever you get thrown the ball
    - Be aware: Other people may have a different view of what you can and can't do, be prepared to identify any confusion and talk it out with the captain/selectors
    - Be confident: Whether you're a talker or quiet, confidence is a weapon
    - Be pragmatic: e.g. A well timed quicker one is sometimes a lot more effective than spending 30 balls setting up for a 'perfect' googly
    - Be patient: You can't force everything
    - Be prepared to work hard!: Be clear on what you are working on with every practice and do the work tat is necessary to get you ready for each game/season
     
  15. SLA

    SLA Well-Known Member

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    From a mental point of view, its really just a case of trying to stay calm and think clearly and not let emotions cloud your judgement. I think poker players refer to it as "full tilt" when you get a bad break and it hits you hard emotionally and things start to unravel.

    I have found in the past that I've occasionally let this happen and I've had to learn to take a step back and take a breath.

    For example, you bowl a couple of tight overs, and you're feeling good, but then you bowl a bad ball early in your third over and it gets smacked for six. All sorts of thoughts now run through your brain about how your figures are ruined and how you HAVE to get a wicket this over otherwise it will be a "bad over". So inevitably, you now try too hard to bowl a killer ball, lose your length completely and your over goes for 20 and you get taken off, fuming at yourself.

    Much better to say "no, stop. lets stay calm, do what I was doing before, find a length, and bowl 5 dot balls, earn myself another over, and then think about how I'm going to get this bloke out after that".

    There is definitely a large element of risk/reward in terms of how much you experiment when bowling. It takes a shrewd bowler to figure out the right time to try a load of big ripping spinners and different variations, and the right time to just try to bowl the same ball over and over again and build up the pressure slowly.

    If you try something and it goes right, you might get a wicket or you might spook the batsman a bit and make him go back into his shell. On the other hand, if it doesn't go quite right, a batsman that was previously struggling might smack a four and suddenly he's the one that's full of confidence.
     
  16. leftie600

    leftie600 Active Member

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    Completely agree, rolls nicely into the "being aware" bit. You've bowled a bad ball and been hit for four. What did you just see? Did the batsman just avoid your midwicket sweeper? Did he just hit a ball through a fine gap when there was a safer option?
    If you now settle back on your line and length, what will change?
     
  17. Thivagar

    Thivagar Member

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    Every expert agrees that Wrist Spin bowling is much more difficult to bowl than Finger spin bowling. It is the most difficult art to master when it comes to bowling. This is why you see every spinning all rounder bowl Offspin and Slow-Left Arm spin. You can easily bowl finger spin by taking couple of steps, you can't do that for Wrist spin bowling. That being said, once you master it, leg spin bowling will give you more variety than finger spin bowling. Mastering Legspin and Chinaman will take you heights instantly. Look how Leggies pop out of nowhere. Yasir Shah, Warne, look at Murugan Ashwin for example. He didn't play FC cricket for 5 years and all of a sudden he is doing well in the IPL. He is looking untouchable when he is landing in the right areas and only gets tonked when he is bowling all over the place. Murali was a wrist spin bowler and that is why he spun long way.
     
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  18. SLA

    SLA Well-Known Member

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    What "experts" are these?

    All those spinning all-rounders like Shahid Afridi and Steve Smith you mean?

    With all due respect, you don't really sound like you know what you're talking about.

    FYI Murali bowled offspin.
     
  19. GoldenArm

    GoldenArm Member

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    I get what he's driving at here, not that Murali was a leg spin bowler but that he was an offie who used an unusual amount of wrist in his delivery to the point where it was actually more dominant than his fingers, as it is for the leggie. A view I've read and heard in a few places before. All spinners use both fingers and wrist its just a question of in which order and to what degree. And a wrong un is a googly or bosie in established cricket parlance. A doosra is a doosra it has no other nickname as far as I know. They are not interchangeable. I'm from the UK and I've never heard wrong un used that way...ever. Just because you wrote the wikipedia entry does not make it correct!! In fact its pretty bad you're spreading poor information in that way, someone should go in and correct it. SLA you know I agree with you on a heap of stuff, you do seem to know what you're on about to a degree, and all spin bowling is very very difficult to do well ( I rarely see a proper spinner (offie or leggie) at club level, its usually just 'slow' bowling) but you really do sound like a total prat sometimes. Stop bullying everyone with your views! Its amazing how often sentences like 'with all due respect' and 'no offence but..' seem to always precede something totally disrespectful or offensive. No one's going to be interested in what you have to say going around talking to people like that.
     
  20. SLA

    SLA Well-Known Member

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    With no respect whatsoever, "wrong'un" literally means "the one that turns the wrong way". It doesn't specify any particular mechanism. You've obviously not played in a very wide cricketing environment if you've never heard people using that term. It predates doosra (a relatively modern innovation) by a quite considerable degree.
     
Put it out there