The Mind And Wrist Spin

Discussion in 'Spin Bowling' started by Billywhizz, Apr 20, 2016.

Put it out there
  1. leftie600

    leftie600 Active Member

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    Is that tone really necessary?

    Also, if we take your argument to extremes, an offspinner literally means a ball with off spin so therefore a googly is an offspinner.
     
  2. SLA

    SLA Active Member

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    He was being a dick, I was just being sarcastic.

    A googly IS an off-spinner.
     
  3. GoldenArm

    GoldenArm Member

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    Rather than get involved in a petty slanging match I'll simply ask you this. Provide us with an example of the term 'wrong un' being used to describe an off spinners other delivery, in either print or spoken conversation from a reputable source. Not including your own work or someone saying the doosra is the off spinners wrong un. As that is just a comparison for illustrative purposes. Your people skills really need some work you know. Sheesh. A googly is an off spinner of course. But the separate naming is because the mechanics of how it arrived at that point is different. It's one thing disguised as another hence why a different name for it has arisen.
     
  4. SLA

    SLA Active Member

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    Having said you didn't want to get involved in a petty slanging match, you then continue to throw insults around. That's a rather curious approach to backing down.

    In 30 seconds on google I found this. Its clearly a very common and well-known term within the spin-bowling community. I've been using it on here for years and no-one has ever queried it before or misunderstood what I meant.

    http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2004/apr/06/cricket.davidhopps
    http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/03/13/1078594620580.html

    "Murali went round the wicket to the Indians and in one virtuoso spell had them groping, reduced to reading him off the pitch because they couldn't tell the doosra from the hand, beating the outside edge over and over again, his wrong 'un spitting and turning like a legbreak."
    http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/255809.html

    "It is really obvious that during the course of a game Murali's doosra or "wrong un" (moving from leg to off with no change of action) really deteriorates"
    https://betting.betfair.com/cricket/cricket/murali-recordbreaker-or-rule-b-221007.html

    A discussion of it here: http://www.pitchvision.com/avoid-spin-bowling-variations-that-make-you-look-like-an-ass#/

    There is a video of it here:
     
  5. GoldenArm

    GoldenArm Member

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    Sorry but none of that is enough to convince me and the sources are not reliable. The one source you rely on most heavily is a colourfully written piece of journalism doing it's best to compare warne and murali. The very reason he even uses the term wrong un is because he's comparing it to warnes variations. That's just good writing, it's not a definitive example of the words usage or roots. Now look I'm not saying you can't use it the way David hopps does, it's a useful way of describing it as everyone instantly knows what you mean. An off spinners wrong un, aka a doosra. Ah of course. But it doesn't have any context without you first recognising that the wrong un is the leggies googly and this is the root of the term. That's what I'm driving at. You can use it colloquially this way, but absolute dictionary definition, I don't think you can for clarity's sake.
     
  6. SLA

    SLA Active Member

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    You don't think David Hopps, the UK editor of cricinfo, is a reliable source?

    A wrong'un is a ball that turns the opposite direction to the one expected. It can be used to describe a disguised off-break bowled by a leg-break bowler, or a disguised leg-break bowled by an off-break bowler. Examples of these are the googly, the doosra, the carom ball, but those terms describe the actual mechanism of the delivery as well as the result. "Wrong un" is just a general term for what happens down the other end.

    That is how I understand the term, that is how everyone I know understands the term, that is how professional spin bowling coaches like Peter Such and John Childs use the term when I go to work shops with them. That is how everyone on here understood the term every time I have used it in the past.

    If you haven't heard the term before, that's surprising, but these things happen.
     
  7. leftie600

    leftie600 Active Member

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    I have never heard it in NZ used in the general way you've described, no one I know down this way uses it as you do. I've played up and down the length of the country and would have heard it used that way if it ever was.

    This suggests that the way the term is an English thing and this is reinforced by the names you have referenced. For accuracies sake you should update Wikipedia to reflect this if you are indeed the person responsible for its spin bowling article.
     
  8. boogiespinner

    boogiespinner Active Member

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    To be fair to SLA I think he is not incorrect on this one. Here is a NZ article from 2001

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=218696
     
    SLA likes this.
  9. leftie600

    leftie600 Active Member

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    Oh, Boocky, that gloriously eccentric man. I don't think he knew what he was talking about at that time.

    You will note that he referred to "a controversial wrong'un", meaning a doosra. He also states further down that "...many experts believe they cannot be delivered without an illegal snap of the elbow", ie he's again only referring to the doosra.

    in that article by wrong'un he means changing the direction of the spin by rotating the wrist, like a googly. He doesn't mean changing the spin by changing the side of the ball the fingers come down.

    The delivery SLA is referring to is not a doosra, SLA's delivery has more in common with a leg cutter or a carrom ball.
     
  10. SLA

    SLA Active Member

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    You're clutching at straws. Yes he means the doosra here, because the doosra is the one that goes the other way or the wrong way in this scenario. Which is what "the wrong one" literally means. First you said it meant ONLY the googly, now you've changed you mind and claim it means ONLY the googly OR the doosra.



    Leg cutters, carrom balls, doosras, googlies, whatever, they are all types of balls that go the wrong way, or "wrong uns". We've found multiple articles from across the globe that use the term in that way.

    Wrong un is most commonly used to describe the googly because that is by far the most common and well-known type of wrong un. But to mistakenly think that makes the two terms synonymous is to misunderstand both the etymology and common technical usage of the term.



    Try this, for example:

    "VVS who was lucky to survive a lbw decision off a Rangana Herath Wrong un, where replays clearly showed the right hander plumb in front"

    http://www.srilankacricket.lk/news/day-2-bulletin-2nd-test

    Herath bowls neither a googly nor a doosra, his wrong'un is a carrom ball.

    Case proved, I think.
     
  11. leftie600

    leftie600 Active Member

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  12. SLA

    SLA Active Member

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    Its pretty unlikely that the writers of the oxford dictionary are sufficiently well-versed in the technical terminology of cricket to know what they're talking about.

    They don't, for example, know that a slider or a flipper is a cricketing term:

    http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/slider
    http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/flipper

    and they've never heard of "arm ball" at all
    http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/spellcheck/english/?q=arm+ball

    If the Oxford dictionary represented the summation of your knowledge of cricket, you wouldn't really know much at all.

    So, as I said, case proved beyond a shadow of a doubt.
     
  13. boogiespinner

    boogiespinner Active Member

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    ok, well the test question is this.

    Which way does Paul Adams' wrong'un break?

    ;)
     
  14. SLA

    SLA Active Member

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    The opposite direction to his stock ball, of course.

    He's a bit of a unique case, in that he already bowls leg-breaks that look like they're going to be off-breaks. Not many bowlers do that. So when he bowls an off-break that looks-like a leg-break that looks like an off-break, its like a double bluff. If you're aware that he bowls leg-breaks that look like off-breaks as his stock ball, then his off-break that looks like a leg-break that looks like an off-break is probably the wrong'un from your perspective, but if you're not, it just breaks the way it looks like its going to break and you're just blissfully unaware of all the confusion.
     
  15. SLA

    SLA Active Member

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    A similar question would be, if you have a seam bowler who bowls exclusively slower balls... are they still slower balls? Slower than what, exactly?
     
  16. boogiespinner

    boogiespinner Active Member

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    Well indeed I wouldn't say you were wrong. That makes perfect sense. But people also might say, well he bowls [the left-hander wristspinner's] wronguns as his stock ball. That makes perfect sense to me too.

    I could invent a term, "right'un" as the surprise delivery for such a bowler, which I hope would add to the general confusion.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2016
  17. Thivagar

    Thivagar New Member

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    Do you not listen to commentary ? Search up Pitch Vision and Cricinfo articles on leg spin. Just listen to commentators during this year's IPL season. Think for a second, if deliveries that go away from batsmen tend to produce more wickets, since most of the bowlers are right handed, wouldn't we see more Leggies than Offies ? Afridi doesn't spin much, therefore he can be more accurate than someone who puts lot of effort. Smith gets acceptable amount of spin, but he isn't accurate, that is why he isn't bowling. Murali's wrist allowed him to spin more, he used his very flexible wrist. it is actually you are the one who has issues. You say some laughable things and then you look to defend yourself. You are very immature.
     
  18. SLA

    SLA Active Member

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    I don't tend to listen to commentary no, because 90% of commentators talk laughable ****************, especially when it comes to spin bowling. We've even had a thread discussing this is the past. Most journalists and most ex-players know piss all about the technicalities of the game.

    If that is your sole source of information, I suggest you start again from scratch.
     
  19. Chino#21

    Chino#21 Active Member

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    For a moment I'll take the time to add something to this discussion:

    Let's all be practical, the whole point of naming things is to avoid confusion and/or give something a unique identity. We are Homo Sapiens. Not "a creature that is unlike an ape but slightly resembles it", because that is confusing and unspecific.

    In cricket, would it not make sense to name each delivery with its own specific name to avoid confusion?
    That is why a leg spinner has a delivery bowled from the back of the hand that turns the other way, the Bosie, which has been renamed the Wrong 'un or Googly. An off spinner has the Doosra which is delivered from the back of the hand turned the opposite way as the Wrong 'un, or a carrom ball which is flicked from the middle finger. Now we know the properties of each of these deliveries. This way, we can look at the slow motion replays of variations and name each of them separately, avoiding any confusion.

    If Wrong 'un were used for anything that seemed to do something different to the stock ball, the whole world would be in constant confusion. I have bowled many leg breaks that went the other way for some reason, but they were not Wrong 'uns. Left arm off spinners in T20 cricket turn the ball in to right handed batsmen with off spinners, but they are not bowling Wrong 'uns.

    So let us be merciful and help the flawed human mind to identify deliveries easily. Behold! The solution:

    Name each delivery according to its unique properties.

    A chinaman is not an off spinner, he is a Left Arm Leg Spinner.
    Shane Warne was a Right Arm Leg Spinner.
    Murali's variation was the Right Arm Doosra.
    Paul Adams bowled a Left Arm Googly / Wrong 'un that spun away.
    Ashwin sometimes bowls the Right Arm Carrom Ball.
    Daniel Vettori bowled Left Arm Off Spin, and occasionally bowled the Left Arm Arm Ball.
    "*unknown bowler* bowled a superb Left Arm Doosra to dismiss *unknown batsman*"
    In each scenario we know exactly what the hand did and what the ball did.
    Bliss.
     
  20. SLA

    SLA Active Member

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    The problem with cricket is that its full of old confusing terminology that doesn't really make much sense and is used in inconsistent ways by different people. Even professional coaches occasionally disagree about what various words mean - what is the difference between timing a shot and middling a shot, for example? Does a left arm finger spinner bowl off spin or leg spin? Why do we call a shot that deflects the ball down to fine leg a "leg glance", but we don't call a shot that deflects the ball down to third man an "off glance". Why do we talk about a long hop but not a short hop, and a half-volley but not a volley? It makes no sense.
     
Put it out there