Top Spin and Dip

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someblokecalleddave

someblokecalleddave

Well-Known Member
Top Spin and Dip

I checked out the shane Warne 'Best of IPL 2009' clips and was watching it thinking what is it that he does that none of us are doing? I think amongst us there's a couple that can get the ball to rotate through the air pretty quickly, some of us that are accurate and some of us that go through spells where we combine different aspects of our speciality to good effect, but we're still a gazillion miles from Warne. Currently I'd say that my bowling in comparison to last year has improved, but so far this year I've had a terrible year of it. I would say that I'm far more able to land the ball where I want it and I'm also turning it more. Additionally I've got increased control over the accuracy at both slower and faster deliveries and yet I'm being hit to the 4 corners of the county. I think I know why - I'm missing a couple of Shane Warne factors - speed and dip......

If you look at these clips -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT1HhHntF2o these batsmen just look totally inept. I realise that there's things in Warnes favour - his reputation and the whole psychology aspect of the game and the fact that these bloke can't hang around and they've got to make runs etc, but there's more. Play the clip and make a note of the speeds that he bowls at in KPH's 75, 82, 74, 76, 74, 72, 72, 72, 73, 81, 83, 81, 76, 80, 78, 81.

Most of the wickets are the classic flighted balls around the 73 KPH mark and that in MPH is 45mph. I can bowl at 45mph but only when I bowl Flippers as these are my fastest delivery and to get them to land 4 or 5 yards in front of the batsman they have to go in flat because of the speed. The conclusion has to be that these ridiculously flighted 'Warne' balls that cause the batsmen so much of a problem which are measured at 45mph, must have incomprehendable top-spin causing them to simply fall out of the sky, otherwise at that speed and tossed up like that they should be ending up 8 or 10 yards behind the wicket keeper! So for all our successes with our drift and a bit of turn off the wicket at 38mph and 40 mph I reckon one of the biggest attributes that many of us are probably missing is that ability to make the ball dip so radically off of what for us would probably be faster balls?

So even though I'm accurate and turning the ball, it's coming in so slow and at such a predictable speed that the batsmen this year are just hitting it. I need more speed and some of that magic dip.

What do you reckon?
 
Re: Top Spin and Dip

I read a few articles and saw some online videos last year made by Ian pont.

He is famous for his work with fast bowlers I think, but I took some of his tips and it has helped me bowl much quicker this year.

his basic technique is to bowl as if your arm is a sling shot.

it has actually helped me become faster and more accurate which was a surprise as trying to bowl fast always caused me to lose accuracy before.

Now however I'm more still and steady in the approach and gather and truely explode at the clease now.

It's hard to explain but I'm happy with the results.
 
Re: Top Spin and Dip

I read a few articles and saw some online videos last year made by Ian Pont.

He is famous for his work with fast bowlers I think, but I took some of his tips and it has helped me bowl much quicker this year.

his basic technique is to bowl as if your arm is a sling shot.

it has actually helped me become faster and more accurate which was a surprise as trying to bowl fast always caused me to lose accuracy before.

Now however I'm more still and steady in the approach and gather and truly explode at the crease now.

It's hard to explain but I'm happy with the results.
 
Re: Top Spin and Dip

dip is definitely crucial. if you bowl faster but still want to flight the ball, then something has to give as you say. but the faster you bowl, the more the flight is affected. im not sure on the exact maths off the top of my head, but id reckon its not a linear equation - e.g. if you double the speed, il bet that the magnus effect increases by a square or something. so doubling the speed results in 4 times the effect, or something like that.

so the faster you bowl (and it doesnt require much more speed), the more the ball will dip and drift. and certainly i have found this myself. in nets i bowl fast, ive measured an average speed from hand to pitch of 35mph, on a ball with 1475rpm on it. im not sure how to calculate/estimate that speed out of the hand, nor am i sure of how exactly they measure delivery speed in matches, but youd have to guess that its up around the 45-50mph mark. i really want to have my bowling speed tested to see for sure.

in matches, until last week, i had been defaulting back to older versions of my action. but in the last couple of matches ive been thinking more about my technique whilst bowling, and making adjustments. so last week i bowled 2 overs at full net speed (with an actual run up, not just a walk up!), and it is the best ive ever bowled (even though the figures perhaps didnt show that fully).

the difference between my slow bowling and my fast bowling is probably only 3-5mph, we arent talking huge differences. yet the differences in drift and dip are huge. turn seems to be mostly unaffected (probably as a function of increased dip retaining traction off the pitch surface). the wicket i took last week was a fairly classic dismissal, and i was absolutely delighted with it, i let the batsman know this with a totally OTT celebration :D it was VERY similar to the first Warne delivery in the 2009 video, except it drifted more, pitched about 6" further outside leg stump, and came back in to hit leg stump 3/4 of the way up. i knew the batsman was going to prance down the wicket at me, so i pitched it up with a bit of extra flight knowing that if he missed it, he was stumped at the very least.

the reason why Warne gets his IPL wickets with the added flight is probably more because he slows the ball down. his stock ball is flatter and faster than it would be in longer formats, the same as Steve Smith, and even Graeme Swann sometimes, which is still relevant even though hes an offie. the flighted ball is then an occasional variation. someone like Warne bowls to plans all day long. he uses the flighted ball at a specific moment once he has coaxed the batsman into a specific frame of mind. it isnt just tossed up there in hope of a mistake, he forces the mistake. Steve Smith probably not so much so, his, like mine, is probably just a function of natural variation. but still effective. Graeme Swann also has the guile and experience to know when to use it and when not to. in T20 the batsmen are under immense pressure to score off of every ball. if they have had a few dots or singles in the over and then they see a flighted ball their thoughts turn to "easy boundary". theyll always look to advance forwards (if they hang back then they create problems for themselves) and then dip and drift come into play, and its easy to lose track of the ball when youre lining it up for a huge slog.

in test cricket i dont think the flighted ball would be quite so effective. the same as in club 40+ over cricket. the faster ball (without being too flat) tends to be the one that batsmen find "unplayable" whereby they have to play a shot but often fail. the slower loopier one is kind of a game of "leg spin roulette". throw it up there 6 times and the batsman will find the wicket ball on one of them (although you might get smashed out of the park on the other 5), but they will either look to defend it, or really attack it. there isnt really an in-between, the batsmen will either be brave/stupid, or be sensible/respectful. so far ive found that most of them are brave/stupid, and given my dislike for batsmen, im going with stupid :D
 
Re: Top Spin and Dip

Paulinho;401079 said:
I read a few articles and saw some online videos last year made by Ian pont.

He is famous for his work with fast bowlers I think, but I took some of his tips and it has helped me bowl much quicker this year.

his basic technique is to bowl as if your arm is a sling shot.

it has actually helped me become faster and more accurate which was a surprise as trying to bowl fast always caused me to lose accuracy before.

Now however I'm more still and steady in the approach and gather and truely explode at the clease now.

It's hard to explain but I'm happy with the results.
Click to expand...

Liz Ward advised me on a similar thing with my own bowling. i think the official terms for it are called "wind up" and "coil", i dont entirely understand how it all relates to the muscles, anatomy, etc. the analogy that i use is a trebuchet, although a slingshot is basically the same action.

its just about building up the potential energy in the muscles and then releasing it explosively at the point of delivery. it also improves spin as well as speed for a spin bowler. Warne apparently is excellent in this regard, although personally ive never been able to figure out what exactly about his action it is that someone would call the wind up and coil. which is probably why im yet to figure out how i can improve it in my own bowling.
 
Re: Top Spin and Dip

The feel of it is definitely best described as a coiled spring as if your body is building up to some sort of oomph in delivery. It has definitely added some revs on the ball also.

I've tried to stay away from any kind of biomechanical analysis and concentrate on the feeling of bowling as I have tied myself in knots with this approach in the past. I think this is the best way to gain some sort of repetition in my action as I’m not now constantly tweaking little things here and there.

With this new action my stock ball is much flatter with the flighted ball being a conscious variation. I think I had probably always put too much flight on the ball previously anyway so it’s just about the right amount now.
 
Re: Top Spin and Dip

i think it happens to all spinners. I think it happens to probably all bowlers.

The thing is with increased accuracy, batsman know the ball is going to come down in a more precise line and length. Strategically they can just wait on a particular line or length and hit from it.

I am reminded of a famous NFL coach who said that his team had to reinvent itself every year -- because every year coaches and players get wiser (even slightly). It's like developing an awesome cut shot, and then finding that bowlers (after a few fours) are trying to bowl to your body; bowlers do adapt as do batsman.

This means you have to adapt too.

Where are batsman smashing you? What delivery are they smashing you off? If the batsman has a pattern of hitting you to a particular area then you can set the field to try save runs or catch the player off that shot. If it is your stock delivery, or a particular delivery they are hitting -- again either avoid or attack by setting fields and making plans. this is what Warney means about having your captain be your best mate.

You have now been promoted. The job gets harder. You have to think on your feet more -- to read the opposition (hence Warne's poker career). Your improved control means a greater ability to set plans. the next step after this is developing a reputation where batsman can try to smash you but always get caught stumped or bowled. only reputation stops batsman following Sachin and Ravi Shastri in coming down the pitch and smashing Warney for four -- a bowler thrives when he/she lessens the batsman's tactical options, or the perception of such, through strategy. In short make the batsman uncomfortable by believing they cannot smash you around, while fearing getting out.
 
Re: Top Spin and Dip

in a reply i made yesterday to you Dave in the wrist spin thread, i wanted to find a picture of a Shane Warne pitch map to confirm that his average length was around 4.5 yards from the stumps. i was 99% sure it was, but i like to check my facts first. my internet was being really slow, so i found the cricinfo page i was looking for, but because the pictures took so long to come up i just opened all of them and left it for a while.

interestingly, one of the pictures that appeared was this one...
69249.jpg


its a Hawk-Eye image of a Shane Warne delivery that dismissed Kevin Pietersen in the Ashes in Australia. if memory serves correctly it was an absolute cherry as well in real life.

anyway, the thing i noticed when i looked at it was Warnes flight. you can watch him on elevated TV cameras all day long, but ultimately it doesnt tell you a great deal about how he flights it. the angles can deceive quite a bit. id never actually thought to look at this before. i had a net practice yesterday evening, and i observed my flight compared to Warne.

when i bowl my flattest flight that i would deem acceptable, that is the same flight as Warne uses! and i consistently land the ball 5-6 yards from the stumps. bearing in mind im a little slower than Warne but spin the ball very hard, so it would stand to reason that i shouldnt be a million miles away from Warne in terms of getting dip on the ball, and achieving a similar length.

when i bowl my flightier balls, they land 0-3 yards from the stumps. my stock ball is somewhere in between, and my ideal stock length is around 3-4 yards.

so based on the premise that Warne bowls around the 50mph mark, about 20% or so faster than you do, and 10% faster than i do, and that by all reasoning he should never be able to land the ball on a length, i think that we have miscalculated on his flight. if you keep the flight so that the ball only goes slightly above your head then it is very easy to land it on a length, even at 50+mph. having now discovered i think what "wind up and coil" are, my bowling feels like it is much faster than its ever been, with more spin than its ever had, and im starting to find consistency in length. my line is still a little wayward, but im going to try and practice every day that i possibly can until the end of summer. my upper body is more than capable of the strains of that, my lower legs are still suspect but ive adjusted my action again so that im lighter on my feet and it seems to be working.

i also watched Shahid Afridi bowling his 60+ mph "leg spin" in the T20 match yesterday, and he lands it comfortably within a good length too. however he bowls with no flight at all, almost like a medium pacer. the added speed often results in huge drift though, and he somehow still turns it pretty well. if he bowled at 50mph i reckon he would be a far more prolific bowler. but i guess he feels that the extra pace, essentially bowling leg cutters rather than leg breaks, is harder to play in the 20-over format. ive not seen him bowl in a test match in ages, so hopefully the upcoming Aus. vs Pak. tests in England will be televised on Sky so i can catch up. i reckon he will bowl more conventional leg spin in the longer format, i hope so! its looking like Steve Smith is going to play as well, with Hauritz injured and gone home. his first taste of test cricket, it will be interesting to see. according to Benaud, Warne is now coaching Smith, presumably more than just those occasions a few months ago when he gave him some tips in the nets?
 
Re: Top Spin and Dip

its interesting to note on Warnes pitch maps that of all the balls that went for boundaries, most of them were either 5 yards and shorter, or 3 yards and fuller. you can say mostly the same thing about the runs as well!! pretty much anything that was on 4 yards was a dot ball!

which highlights my point about length that ive been making the last couple of days. to good batsmen you have a sweep spot, that spans about 6-12". line is dependant on turn, it is length that is crucial though. if you land it in that zone then youll concede very few runs, and if batsmen go after it youll get wickets. outside of that zone and you make their lives easier. the sweep spot will depend on how fast you bowl, how much flight, etc. for Warne it was 4 yards, for me i reckon its more like 3.5 yards, but that requires me to flight the ball a little more than i have been.
 
Re: Top Spin and Dip

someblokecalleddave;403065 said:
That's pretty much where I bowl - 5 yards at the shortest and anything up to about 2 yards. But the majority as in this image between the 3.5 - 5 yard length.
Click to expand...

at your pace and flight though Dave id say thats probably a touch short. 4-5 yards makes for fairly easy pickings, your ideal length is probably around 3-3.5 yards (every ball, with the occasional one fuller, but ideally none shorter). next time youre up against a batsman that seems to have control, just try pitching it a yard fuller every ball and see what happens. im only speculating on my theory, its by no means a proven fact. but it all stands to reason. i think its easy to look at someone like Warne and try to emulate him because he was the best, but that would be like a club player trying to bowl like Stuart Broad with lots of short balls. at 70mph youll get hit for 6 every time, it only works for Broad because he bowls at 90+ mph and is very tall. you have to adapt their approach to suit your own action. in our cases, we arent as fast or powerful as Warne (at the moment), so the ball naturally has to pitch fuller.
 
Re: Top Spin and Dip

Jim2109;403080 said:
at your pace and flight though Dave id say thats probably a touch short. 4-5 yards makes for fairly easy pickings, your ideal length is probably around 3-3.5 yards (every ball, with the occasional one fuller, but ideally none shorter). next time youre up against a batsman that seems to have control, just try pitching it a yard fuller every ball and see what happens. im only speculating on my theory, its by no means a proven fact. but it all stands to reason. i think its easy to look at someone like Warne and try to emulate him because he was the best, but that would be like a club player trying to bowl like Stuart Broad with lots of short balls. at 70mph youll get hit for 6 every time, it only works for Broad because he bowls at 90+ mph and is very tall. you have to adapt their approach to suit your own action. in our cases, we arent as fast or powerful as Warne (at the moment), so the ball naturally has to pitch fuller.
Click to expand...

I think you're right as the faster flipper have a tendency to be fuller and they're the balls getting the wickets and causing problems, I think in the first few games of the season, I wasn't using the Flippers and was coming up against far better batsmen. The last game with the use of the flippers I did okay and took a wicket. I've not had many games as I'm in a transition between two teams and I'm trying to give my foot/leg a rest and it seems to be working. No game now for at least weeks to put any of this into practice, but I'm optimistic about the prospects.
 
Paulinho said:
Re: Top Spin and Dip

I read a few articles and saw some online videos last year made by Ian pont.

He is famous for his work with fast bowlers I think, but I took some of his tips and it has helped me bowl much quicker this year.

his basic technique is to bowl as if your arm is a sling shot.

it has actually helped me become faster and more accurate which was a surprise as trying to bowl fast always caused me to lose accuracy before.

Now however I'm more still and steady in the approach and gather and truely explode at the clease now.

It's hard to explain but I'm happy with the results.
Click to expand...

This bloke Paulinho, missed a trick here, he didn't emphasise or promote his sources, but I think I've stumbled upon them. I've always struggled understanding and making sense of the Magnus affect and why it happens, but the website here which might have been what Paulinho was talking about has about the most effective description of why a ball dips and drifts.

http://catcheswinmatches-com.mysmartercms.co.uk/coaching/spin/

The website then goes on to apply the same principles to fast bowling which is interesting and opens up the potential to have a considerably faster top-spinner variation if you could suss out the Ian Pont approach.

http://catcheswinmatches-com.mysmartercms.co.uk/coaching/the-worlds-deadliest-slower-ball/
 
someblokecalleddave said:
This bloke Paulinho, missed a trick here, he didn't emphasise or promote his sources, but I think I've stumbled upon them. I've always struggled understanding and making sense of the Magnus affect and why it happens, but the website here which might have been what Paulinho was talking about has about the most effective description of why a ball dips and drifts.

http://catcheswinmatches-com.mysmartercms.co.uk/coaching/spin/

The website then goes on to apply the same principles to fast bowling which is interesting and opens up the potential to have a considerably faster top-spinner variation if you could suss out the Ian Pont approach.

http://catcheswinmatches-com.mysmartercms.co.uk/coaching/the-worlds-deadliest-slower-ball/
Click to expand...

Here's some more on this ball - known as the 'Butterfly Ball' don't know if anything has been discussed elsewhere, but it sound interesting. Turns out Ian Pont and some other geezer 'Julian Fountain' developed off the back of their experiences in Baseball. It seems as far as I can make out there's not a lot of info on the grip, but it works in the same way as the knuckleball in that it's released with no spin. Apparently with no spin, the ball is then subject to the vagaries of the atmosphere and how they interact with the balls seam. If you click on the knuckleball link you'll end up eventually at the conclusion that with a baseball the nature of the way the thread is sewn into the ball means that the balls swerves all over the place whilst in flight. Apparently this also happens with a cricket ball with a propensity for the ball to dip - see this youtube link here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMyAkM5M-J4 and Pont (I think offers a description of the grip). I might give this a go if it means I get a variation that dips suddenly as in the video with a lot more speed.
 
You're right Dave, most amateur spin bowlers bowl far too slowly, and simply don't realise that that is a big reason why they don't get wickets they should. In my amateur league, I am constantly described as bowling "quick spin", but I actually just bowl at a similar pace to professional spin bowlers.

The reason being is that the slower pace gives the batsman both more time to react off the pitch to a short delivery, and more time to stretch forward and hit a full ball before it bounces, meaning that anything long of 8 foot and short of 11foot will be easy pickings for the batsman.

Basically, the slower you bowl, the less margin of error you have in your length. This is only further compounded by the slow pitches most of us bowl on.

And yes - on the other hand, most great spinners' stock balls have heavy topspin on them. Good dip is almost as important a big turn in taking wickets. A bowler who doesn't get dip has to work much harder on other things.

There's plenty of info on the pitchvision website about this I find.

The "Butterfly ball" is just an alternative grip for bowling a slower ball with a new name attached. It won't be of much use to a spinner I doubt. The dip won't be anywhere near as dramatic as a topspinner, and it won't spin. Knuckleballs are effective in avoiding the middle of a baseball bat by half an inch, but they don't move anywhere near enough to trouble a bloke with a cricket bat in his hands because of the extra width of the bat.
 
SLA said:
You're right Dave, most amateur spin bowlers bowl far too slowly, and simply don't realise that that is a big reason why they don't get wickets they should. In my amateur league, I am constantly described as bowling "quick spin", but I actually just bowl at a similar pace to professional spin bowlers.

The reason being is that the slower pace gives the batsman both more time to react off the pitch to a short delivery, and more time to stretch forward and hit a full ball before it bounces, meaning that anything long of 8 foot and short of 11foot will be easy pickings for the batsman.

Basically, the slower you bowl, the less margin of error you have in your length. This is only further compounded by the slow pitches most of us bowl on.

And yes - on the other hand, most great spinners' stock balls have heavy topspin on them. Good dip is almost as important a big turn in taking wickets. A bowler who doesn't get dip has to work much harder on other things.

There's plenty of info on the pitchvision website about this I find.

The "Butterfly ball" is just an alternative grip for bowling a slower ball with a new name attached. It won't be of much use to a spinner I doubt. The dip won't be anywhere near as dramatic as a topspinner, and it won't spin. Knuckleballs are effective in avoiding the middle of a baseball bat by half an inch, but they don't move anywhere near enough to trouble a bloke with a cricket bat in his hands because of the extra width of the bat.
Click to expand...

I'd like to be able to bowl faster but at 51 years old speeds probably not going to be something I'm going to add to my bowling in the near future, but there amy be hope in the longer term as I checked your profile page and noted that you're 87! Pitchvision - yeah a nightmare to negotiate round and they've got pro or at least semi pro spinners on their staff, but they're not going to be giving much away for free as it's a commercial business. I go over there sometimes and have a mooch about, it seems as though there's a fairly big following, but they're mostly asking questions and David Hinchcliffe who runs it as far as I'm aware is obviously busy doing a million and one other things and doesn't get on there enough to answer questions. I reckon if you're looking for interaction, questions, comments and advice albeit from fellow amateurs, you can't get a lot better than on here, this has got to be the most supportive and active forums on Wrist Spin bowling in the world. I frequently look around and there seems to be other forums with far more members, but none of them ever comment or say anything, perhaps for fear of being be-littled. That doesn't seem to happen on here, there seems to be a genuine approach to helping each other.
 
Read in Warne's biography that he broke both his legs when he was kid and use to move around in a wheelchair for a while. He also used to race with his friends/cousins lying on a skateboard and pushing it with his hands. Apparently these activities strengthened his forearms which helped him give a hard rev to the bowl. Always feel that Warne's forearm was directing the rest of body from release till the follow-through.
 
bigturner said:
Read in Warne's biography that he broke both his legs when he was kid and use to move around in a wheelchair for a while. He also used to race with his friends/cousins lying on a skateboard and pushing it with his hands. Apparently these activities strengthened his forearms which helped him give a hard rev to the bowl. Always feel that Warne's forearm was directing the rest of body from release till the follow-through.
Click to expand...

Do you mean his leading arm that reaches forwards in his bowling action?
 
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