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sadspinner said:
Another interesting video. Peter Such saying that the spinner getting most revs in the UK is Adil Rashid with over 2200 rpm. So he actually does spin the ball more than I expected after seeing him bowl
http://www.ecbtv.co.uk/video/20101021/spinners-are-on-track_2276250_2191350
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that machine really bugs me. ive read dozens of articles on it, and now seen that video, which is the first time ive actually seen the machine itself in operation. and all of them concur about RPM. saying that an average finger spinner will get 1400-2000rpm, and an average wrist spinner anything from probably 1600+.

id agree, the best off spinners in the world may be pushing past 1400rpm. and the best leg spinners, maybe pushing past 2000rpm. Shane Warne certainly put prolific spin on the ball, but my estimates from slow motion video are that he put around 1600-2000rpm on an average delivery.

the articles and videos however are suggesting that even young county fringe offies are getting 2000rpm on some deliveries, and i just find that completely unbelievable. Adil Rashid being the most prolific spinner measured at over 2200rpm AVERAGE is also quite unbelievable when youve seen him bowl, but he does have quite a good action, so theres every chance he does spin it harder on actual deliveries than he does between his hands. at the same time though, when have you ever seen Shane Warne fail to turn any cricket ball huge with his revs, and Rashid never got any turn in ODI's for England. he fares better on county wickets.

maybe im just bitter because ive only measured my own bowling at a maximum of about 1500rpm, but using slow motion video which is 100% accurate and consistent. i want a go on their machine though, because logic dictates to me that it has to be over-reading by some margin, and i reckon id be well up there on RPM. maybe i just rate myself as better than i actually am though :D

im also not entirely convinced that radar can accurately measure spin on a small ball with no reference points, although if someone with knowledge of how it works cares to explain how it can then im all ears. i have a radar speed measuring box that isnt dissimilar looking to the radar box they are using for this system. its about the same size, has a small window on it, and sits on a tripod. and it measures speed with an accuracy of about +/- 5mph (on 38mph bowling) depending on how you aim it relative to the flight on the ball!!! so clearly there is plenty of margin for error in such a system. the ECB undoubtedly spent a lot more money than i did though lol.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
Here's a link to an atrocious forum - but it has this nice interview with Abdul Qadir. At one point in it he sounds like he may be talking about using the Off-spinning flipper.

http://www.slcricket.com/general-cricket-chat/6349-im-proud-i-revived-art-abdul-qadir-must-read.html
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Great read. His famous second wrongun may have been an off spinning flipper.

Vic Richardson wrote about grimmetts off break flipper in a book published in '46 and he was looking back to 1938 when grimmett was practising it. I have a newspaper clipping where grimmett says his latest mystery ball is a off break delivered like a legbreak, he makes no secret. He said he tried it out first in a shield match in brisbane. The back spinner he trialled in 1940 at sydney but the overspinner he may have tried as early as first test in england 1930! Not many know that but i have found heaps of stuff to show he did.

Cec Pepper bowled one, that bradman describes. And jack potter could bowl one and benaud describes seeing potter bowl it in the early 60,s. Potter showed warne the flipper so he knew how to fingerclick spin.
 
macca said:
Great read. His famous second wrongun may have been an off spinning flipper.

Vic Richardson wrote about grimmetts off break flipper in a book published in '46 and he was looking back to 1938 when grimmett was practising it. I have a newspaper clipping where grimmett says his latest mystery ball is a off break delivered like a legbreak, he makes no secret. He said he tried it out first in a shield match in brisbane.
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Yes what Qadir seems to be saying is that he bowled the offspinning offbreak as in figure 6 on page 64 of grimmetts Tricking the batsman. The edition I had read was the 1934 edition by Hodder and Stoughton. He experiments with the 4 types of flipper that dave had done a video of. He explains how to start them with a tennis ball under arm then raising the arm gradually till you get overarm.

He states ' it must be clearly understood that this is purely a demonstration for lecture purposes, but its principles may be applied to all spin bowling. It is possible in actual bowling to use this method of spinning the ball., by means of it a leg break can be bowled with an action similar to a googly. With a legbreak it is also possible to bowl a googly which is hard to detect as instead of coming out of the back of the hand, it leaves the front like in the case of a legbreak, it has the additional advantage of greater pace on leaving the wicket. The legbreak spun in this manner, is very slow off the pitch on account of the backspin on it"

He then cryptically adds ' This method of spinning the ball is difficult in bowling the full distance, but for say 15 to 16 yards is comparitively easy. The reason it is hard to synchronise the spinning of the ball with the moment of release in propelling the extra distance."

Some interesting points so.

1 Did Qadir really bowl the offspinning flipper after all these years? Did he find this through experimentation, tutoring from other leggies or more remotely from grimmetts book?

2 Was grimmet bluffing when saying like Jenner when questioned by Macca, that it is nigh to impossible to master it over 22 yards. We know the offspinning flipper is possible as we all tried our hand at it even though line and length are inconsistent

3 He states again as Macca had said that of all the flipper deliveries, the offspinning one had most potential as it made pace off the wicket. I suppose though in areas where the wicket has high bounce the backspinning ones have their value. I see this in tennis. They play with continuos topspin strokes, but when someone plays a bit of backspin/slice the top tennis players in majority of cases look befuddled and tend to make unforced errors.


It is strange that after all these years ,it had to be a pakistani it seems to have given life again to the offspinning flipper. No wonder many could not read it from the hand. Kudos to Abdul Qadir, the man who really revived leg spin bowling in more ways than we had suspected. It is amazing how warne and macgill never talked about these deliveries, even though macgill apparently had been given some books written by grimmet by his grandfather.

Something else, why has macgill never given a demonstration on leg spin. He seems to be an intellectual type and surely had some advice. To me he spun it more than warne, and his action seemed to be more graceful and flowing than warnes. Warnes is pure power/explosion of all the levers though as philpott preaches. It would have been nice to see philpott bowl in slow motion. The only clip I had found was of the film of the bodyline series where he played the part of grimmett.
 
i've just noticed that Lawrence Booth has totally nicked the name of my blog for his Mail column! the thieving swine! if thats a coincidence i'll eat my hat. Anyone got an email address for Stuey? we should drop him a line...
 
chippyben said:
Check out Arthur Mailey bowling at 1:50
http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=74531
Also Clarrie Grimmett. Is the last ball he bowls a googly, look at the way his arm finishes. http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=80855
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Looks like it eh?

speaking of Mailey, you have to read or reread his 10 for 66 and all that. Here is a bit http://www.allenandunwin.com/bookpreview/default.aspx?isbn=9781741755329 . Him and grimmett didn't get on that well but funny how they were both graphic artists as well.

Mailey is my favourite writer of that era and then the brilliance of his cartoons makes for genius when put together. He did some great cartoon stories of grimmett.
 
macca said:
Looks like it eh?

speaking of Mailey, you have to read or reread his 10 for 66 and all that. Here is a bit http://www.allenandunwin.com/bookpreview/default.aspx?isbn=9781741755329 . Him and grimmett didn't get on that well but funny how they were both graphic artists as well.

Mailey is my favourite writer of that era and then the brilliance of his cartoons makes for genius when put together. He did some great cartoon stories of grimmett.
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It's one I'll have to try and get hold of.
 
chrisbell said:
Interesting to see that both these guys kept the front arm low and didn't take the bowling arm above the waist during the lead-up to the bowling action.
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It seems that all the spin is imparted by the shoulder, not so much through driving with the hips/legs. Was Mailey considered a big turner of the ball?
 
I think we had seen this. How fantastic for a 7 year old. Great action,good turn and accuracy and a leg stump line! He could teach chippy ben and Jim a trick or two
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9WxpE94TLQ&NR=1
 
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