Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)
- Thread starter Richard the Third
- Start date
Well... to be honest I've was just lumping you in with Australia, which most British visitors find to be shockingly old-fashioned and racist, like going 20 years back in time.
Cleanprophet
Active Member
ha ha, typical SLA response there.
It is fair enough to say I have missed the point, but you would then need to explain why I missed the point. You didn't do that at all.
My point was that the system of selection in English cricket (from grass roots up) is riddled with bigotry. You, at no point, attempted to disprove that. You simply stated that there is no bigotry, at least outside the upper echelons. In my experience, this is beyond naive and bordering on ignorant.
The reality is, it is you who missed the point entirely. You seem to assume that Lyon was a very talented bowler from an early age and the crappy useless system they have in Australia (and NZ, as you seem to think both countries do not warrant any distinction) is incapable of spotting all talent - unlike in England were no talent slips through the net. Yes, that's right, the nation of well over 50 million people that regularly gets outplayed by Australia - a nation of less than half that amount. Spot the anomaly there? Either Australia are genetically predisposed to a higher attainment of sporting capacity or maybe, just maybe, they are better at identifying talent? Think about it.
As for Lyon, is it not possible that this bowler did not attain a high level of skill until much later in life? This is a bloke who spent most of his days on a cricket field and using the facilities in his spare time. From what I've read about him, he wasn't a particulary good player as youngster but turned himself into a fine bowler in early adult life. The Australian system and Lyon were largely mutually exclusive. You analysis of his situation is a case study in missing the point.
Cleanprophet
Active Member
I was impressed by him. He's very front on as a bowler, which is a little unusual. When he bowls the googly he rotates a lot more, making it easy to spot.
I have to say, I didn't notice how he spun the ball from hand to hand. Most spinners do that. Personally, I find spinning the ball hard from hand to hand just before I start my run up really helps.
Yeah, I'm involved in the selection system.
Are you?
One of us knows what we're talking about, one of us doesn't.
AngryRanga
Member
Yes. The sun exists in Australia, allowing us to play cricket on average 100% more than the English who sit inside watching it rain.
Cleanprophet
Active Member
No, I'm talking about a county.
You're calling me a bigot. You're calling my friends bigots. You're calling my colleagues bigots. Yet you have not a single shred of evidence for this extremely serious and personally offensive assertion.
So frankly, you can go ******** yourself. Apologise now, or at your leisure. Either way, you've stepped way, way, over the line for what is usually a friendly and respectful forum.
To be fair, a point blank disagreement without explanation does tend to raise eye brows, old chap, which you have done twice above. I have been a forum lurker for some time but only recently registered, reading your posts above (Amongst others), you come across very sharply at times, then when challenged respond with veiled profanity followed by the demands of an apology whilst stating the general nature of the forums. A touch rich.
"Giles Clarke says that Alastair Cook "and his family are very much the sort of people we want the England captain and his family to be".
How would you interpret that, in any other way in which has been suggested? After all, Mr. Clarke is effectively English cricket incarnate.
For which county do you say you are a selector for?
"Giles Clarke says that Alastair Cook "and his family are very much the sort of people we want the England captain and his family to be".
How would you interpret that, in any other way in which has been suggested? After all, Mr. Clarke is effectively English cricket incarnate.
For which county do you say you are a selector for?
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The system he is part of and dedicated a great part of his life to has been called bigoted by Cleanprophet with zero evidence other than England doesn't seem to produce as many outstanding cricketers as Australia. He naturally reacted angrily to this and had a counter-shot at Aus (and NZ for some reason).
Why exactly does he have to prove that the English system is not bigoted? Or are we going to lazily just accuse each other of all kinds of s*** without any evidence?
SLA's reaction hasn't been great but he deserves an apology from Cleanprophet that is unless Cleanprophet can start giving some specific examples rather than subjective observations of international cricketers.
Well, no one has to prove anything, but once again, to effectively make the statement "I disagree." without anything further then you are going to be questioning it. If he didn't want the conversation he shouldn't have replied at the top of this page.
I work for the defence industry which I have done since leaving school, state school that is, as do many of my friends, I have a vested interest and care for what I do. If someone said something regarding that, I wouldn't bat an eye lid, because it does not matter a jot to me but I am not a sports system in the public eye. It is just an opinion which everyone is entitled to and it seems you cant have an opinion on here if it is considered wrong without someone blowing a gasket.
I can't see how it is an accusation and without trawling through examples until tonight, if I can even be bothered, all I can say is that it is a well held view by a lot of people. Whether it is true or not is subjective but I feel people in the system, who choose to respond, should be saying "Why do they hold that view?" Or "Well, how do we change that view?", rather than saying "How dare you!?".
I get the impression that you are a Kiwi, in which case with following what you have said, if I was part of English cricket and you chirped up with an opinion would it be fair od me to say "You don't know what you are talking about, Kiwi, you have never been here!". Not really, as you should still be able to offer an opinion as you done above. It is going to annoy people coming out with "I know, you don't, be quiet."
I work for the defence industry which I have done since leaving school, state school that is, as do many of my friends, I have a vested interest and care for what I do. If someone said something regarding that, I wouldn't bat an eye lid, because it does not matter a jot to me but I am not a sports system in the public eye. It is just an opinion which everyone is entitled to and it seems you cant have an opinion on here if it is considered wrong without someone blowing a gasket.
I can't see how it is an accusation and without trawling through examples until tonight, if I can even be bothered, all I can say is that it is a well held view by a lot of people. Whether it is true or not is subjective but I feel people in the system, who choose to respond, should be saying "Why do they hold that view?" Or "Well, how do we change that view?", rather than saying "How dare you!?".
I get the impression that you are a Kiwi, in which case with following what you have said, if I was part of English cricket and you chirped up with an opinion would it be fair od me to say "You don't know what you are talking about, Kiwi, you have never been here!". Not really, as you should still be able to offer an opinion as you done above. It is going to annoy people coming out with "I know, you don't, be quiet."
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Cleanprophet
Active Member
How's your whistling?
You, as I've said before, are a champion at missing the point. Just because I say that English cricket is a "bastion of bigotry", that does not mean that I believe that everyone involved in English cricket is a bigot.
People who know far more about English cricket, from grass roots up, have complained about the system (Ian Botham, chief amongst them). The game is riddled with class consciousness. I've read fairly extensively on the subject. The MCC is a major part of English cricket and if you fail to see the bigotry in the MCC, then you are blind as a bat or wilfully blind, which is incomparably worse.
Ultimately, my point about the bigotry applied mainly to the upper echelons of English cricket. It was, after all, a direct response to the possible inclusion of someone in the England team. Bizarrely, you actually accepted that bigotry is a part of English cricket ("The upper echelons of ECB may be public school boy bigot extraordinaires") and yet focused on my comment being a representation of grass roots cricket predominantly. For what it's worth, I have first hand experience of grass roots bigotry. Unfortunately, cricket seems to attract the aspirational social climber who looks down upon the working classes or people from certain areas more disparagingly than the "upper echelons". That's not to say that everyone is a bigot. My belief is that America is a racist country. That is, it is a country where non-white people face lots of prejudice. That does not mean that I think that everyone in America is a racist. If you choose to take that view then that reflects more on you than on my comment.
It is my opinion that English cricket is riddled with bigotry. If you do not like that opinion, then I suggest you follow your own suggestion of what I should do and "go ******** yourself".
At no point have you ever tried to explain why, in your experience, I am wrong and at no point have you actually addressed the point I made specifically about Nathan Lyon and why I believe he found his way into international cricket and why that would not happen in England. Instead, you prefer to miss the point entirely, not explain your position at all and throw insults around.
In what way is what I have said any more lazy than what SLA has said? I have given, at least, some explanation of my position. SLA has contended that with no explanation at all. He has simply said that he knows more and I am wrong. Sounds a bit like a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions.
Without reference to anything above but as a general remark, yes for the most part. Face-to-face I would possibly engage it but on the internet unless it is a calm and interesting topic I probably wouldn't engage. If I did, it would be a conversation which I would depart sharply if it got a bit silly.
It's very easy to take things badly on the internet as you are just interpreting words, dependant on what mood you are in then you can take it many different ways!
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macca
Active Member
I agree Chino but I think Cleanprophets use of the word bigot is completely wrong in any way describing the English cricket set-up. I suspect he didn't mean the connotations of that word. In fact the so called "England" team is more likely to be peopled by everyone and anyone but Englishmen so you surely cant tag them bigots.
As to why the English cricket set up is such a dismal failure in say producing an English legspinner who can land the ball on the actual cut section of the pitch. or a batsman that can play such deliveries is a mystery.
As to why the English cricket set up is such a dismal failure in say producing an English legspinner who can land the ball on the actual cut section of the pitch. or a batsman that can play such deliveries is a mystery.