Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

Discussion in 'Spin Bowling' started by Richard the Third, Feb 19, 2011.

Put it out there
  1. Chino#21

    Chino#21 Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2014
    Messages:
    160
    Are you sure that is having such a big impact on your bowling? It may well be that your run-up doesn't generate enough energy to force your leg to go through with energy? I'm talking from limited experience, but I have seen several of your youtube bowling videos and what I noticed was that you were perhaps paying too much attention to small technical aspects and your bowling was suffering as a result. I have also fallen into this trap; trying to change simple things like the position of my front foot and then bowling badly when it was entirely uneccesary to make this change. Philpott makes the point that you should always avoid change just for the sake of change.
    The ideal leg spin action is as fluent as possible. Just run up and bowl. After that you fine tune it so that everything runs smoothly, like a well oiled machine. I highly doubt if your back leg dragging through is so important, although it might be, I wouldn't really know because I haven't seen those videos. My basic advice would be to forget about it, just run un with the intent to deliver the ball with as much energy as possible, (evenly split between putting revs on the ball and bowling it with pace, or with slightly more energy into either) up to the point where you are feeling "contorted" and like a whip that has ben cracked violently and with force, always keeping your eyes on your target. I prefer to keep my eyes at the perfect length if I'm bowling from over, and the batsman's head from around. I think looking at the level of the head is ideal because that allows you to bowl the ball directly at the eye level and dip it down.
    My back foot doesn't follow through at all sometimes, but I still get just as much energy on the ball without it. After you've let go of the ball, nothing matters except following through naturally and being ready for the return catch. Try not to worry about what happens after the release, but rather what you can do before and during the release to increase its effectiveness.
    Again, I did not see the videos, I have no idea what you should / shouldn't do to your bowling action, but my own experience is that the release and action that happens before it is the only important aspect of the bowling action.
     
  2. someblokecalleddave

    someblokecalleddave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2007
    Messages:
    6,306
    Location:
    Basildon, Essex, UK
    Plenty of cricket it that area, the other side of London to me though so we'll never meet in a match!
     
    shahidpak likes this.
  3. someblokecalleddave

    someblokecalleddave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2007
    Messages:
    6,306
    Location:
    Basildon, Essex, UK
    Yeah you may well be right, but it's the kind of thing I'd explore and look at - wouldn't get too hung up on it though and if it didn't bring results relatively quickly I'd probably revert back to what I'm currently doing. I might copy the clip and up-load it.
     
  4. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2013
    Messages:
    720
    We have a bowler at our club who is in the 130-135 kph range. He's quite wirey, has a very nice action and carries plenty of pace into the crease in his run up.

    I bowl a bit of seam in the nets from time to time. It's mostly to give the batters something else to bat against. But I do work a little to try and bowl with as much pace as I can. My run up to the crease is not quick at all. I may try to get a bit more pace into the run up. For now, I'm just focusing on body position at the crease and release.

    A few things I wasn't doing and am now doing or trying to do:

    1) Pull the left arm into my body to help speed through the crease

    2) Ensure the fingers come down the back of the ball and really drag down the back of the ball (I used to slide down the side like a cutter - without realising it)

    3) Try to get my bowling arm over the top of my standing leg


    All pretty basic things but important things for bowling seam and the sort of things people tend to get wrong. I probably bowl about 115k to 120k at the quickest. I'm sure I could get it to 125k-130k with just better technique.
     
  5. Chino#21

    Chino#21 Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2014
    Messages:
    160
    Good idea. Technical errors like this are best resolved by doing drills on your own to remove them and make the proper technique become habitual. It's one of the reasons why bowling in a net to a batsman with 5 other bowlers isn't valuable exercise. You don't know what you are doing wrong unless someone tells you and can't get in a rhythm to mend the problem anyway. In the course of about 5 practices and 2 games I was bowling worse than I had ever bowled (just before the 1-89 in 7 game) and in 5 minutes bowling on my own in the backyard I could identify exactly what was wrong with my action (release point too low and leading arm too far sideways)
    I think it's important for you to experiment with the bowling action, as long as it's neither excessive nor unneccesary and leads to gradual improvement.
    Stuart Macgill says in his coaching video that you should let the back leg come through as if you are "stepping over a box". Isn't that very uncomfortable and unstable? When I try it, it feels like I am trying to make myself fall over and hit my knee with my bowling arm. I have a more Yasir Shah-like follow through with the back leg pivoting through 0-45 degrees. Adam Zampa uses the same method. Why would this be counter-productive? Macgill doesn't give a solid reason why you shouldn't do it.
     
  6. shahidpak

    shahidpak Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2013
    Messages:
    433
    120 k is very fast how can you be sûre that you bowl that speed, and the bloke who bowls 130, how did he achieve that? I somtimes sée skinny fast bowlers bowling 140 k on TV like junaid khan..
     
  7. shahidpak

    shahidpak Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2013
    Messages:
    433
    The problem now is that idont think im going to get a place at school quickly which will be very annoying + my housse there is being renovated....
     
  8. leftie600

    leftie600 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2012
    Messages:
    585
    Location:
    Wellington, New Zealand
    At the end of the day the really fast bowlers (those that bowl consistently above 140) were born with the fast twitch fibers that give them the potential to bowl fast and/or throw a ball a long way. The rest is hard work and, as Chino#21 has highlighted, good fundamentals in the bowling action.

    Also as Chino#21 has stated, anyone who is fit, able and in the prime of their life can train to bowl in the 130s.

    At a club level 130+ is noticeably fast whereas your average top grade club 'fast' bowler is probably only bowling 120-125, at lower grades even less.

    One thing you notice as you progress up the grades is how slow the grades are that you left behind.
     
    shahidpak likes this.
  9. Chino#21

    Chino#21 Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2014
    Messages:
    160
    Bowling fast can only get you so far, there are bowlers who play club cricket here that have been measured with speedometers and can bowl speeds ranging from 130kph to 150kph, but they aren't near the international level yet.
    To be effective against the best teams you need accuracy, coupled with swing and pace. Having pace means nothing if you can't bowl in the right areas so it's a fruitless endeavor to try and bowl as fast as you possibly can, but without taking wickets and conceding 4 wides when you bounce the ball over the keeper.
    I recall reading about an English wicket keeper (can't remember who, but he's very well known) who could bowl 130kph+ at 15, but bowled full tosses at the rib cage all the time so he was useless as a bowler. Vernon Philander is a great example of using accuracy to take wickets as a seam bowler.
    Shahidpak asked how they do it, one thing that I know adds quite a lot of pace is having a braced front leg. There are many articles and videos that discuss this, and it's something that spinners can use as well.
    Mitchell Johnson gets most of his pace from his slingy action, by that I mean an action where the bowling arm comes through much later than in a normal action, allowing the muscles to wind up and release the energy in a more whiplike manner. Not neccesarily a low arm action but it usually is.
     
  10. shahidpak

    shahidpak Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2013
    Messages:
    433
    I dont totally agree with you, i believe that the most important element in fast bowling is pace... Line length and swing can be taught by a good coach, just like spin is the most important aspect of spin bowling pace is the most important of fast bowling.
     
  11. leftie600

    leftie600 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2012
    Messages:
    585
    Location:
    Wellington, New Zealand
    Hadlee is probably the ultimate example of sacrificing pace for accuracy, although he originally did it so he could get through the then heavy county cricket workload.

    In NZ there are guys who also naturally have pace but as per where you're from they are never as successful as the slower guys who work harder and are more accurate. The super quicks that put in the hard work and have the accuracy are the ones to be afraid of. My highest batting achievement was avoiding facing Shane Bond in a club match, f**k me he was quick, accurate and the ball was swinging in a mile! Not too sure how many singles I turned down but I sure ran those 2's hard!

    Yep, the one thing that adds pace for most people is the braced straight front leg. Surprisingly tough to make natural if you don't do it already.
     
  12. TonyM

    TonyM Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2010
    Messages:
    236
  13. Chino#21

    Chino#21 Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2014
    Messages:
    160
    Not entirely correct. Stiaan van Zyl is bowling gentle medium pace at 110kph against the West Indies, and he is getting through a lot of overs with an economy rate of under 3 per over. He only has accuracy and swing to assist him.
    As a spin bowler you can still get away with spinning the ball huge and bowling a few bad balls, like Stuart Macgill. As a fast bowler you have to be acccurate, you can't just bowl fast. Morne Morkel is the fastest bowler in the Proteas' bowling line-up, and ironically the least succesful. Steyn, Philander and Kallis bowl(ed) with reasonable pace, swing, accuracy and had a plan. If you look at how Morkel bowls, it's basically flat out pace but no consistency. He was bowling faster than Mitchell Johnson at one stage in his career but gifted the batsman two 4-balls an over.
    Both him and Steyn have had to slow down a bit to become more accurate. It's usually the older, more experienced fast bowlers that do this. Glenn Mcgrath is another good example of accuracy above pace.
    I'd say swing to a pacer is more like spin to a spinner, to make an analogy. The more the better in either case. And of course the more at high speeds the better. We spinners also try to get maximum purchase at the best speed possible, Anil Kumble was great at combining pace and spin effectively. Fast bowlers try to make the ball swing (or potentially reverse swing) at the best pace possible.
    And as you said: line length and swing can be taught by a good coach. Which is precisely what makes it the most important. Those things are the basics and solid basics make you consistent.
     
  14. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2013
    Messages:
    720
    I think what he is saying is that it is better to have a bit of pace along with control and movement than to have plenty of pace and very little control.

    The bowler at my club who is 130-135 has decent control but he does nothing with the ball at all. It's straight up and down. Against the better batters, he causes few problems. The previous season the club had a bowler who was in the 120-125 range but bowled with a really nice shape, swinging the ball both ways. He was very effective.

    I can't do it. I've tried it and it felt very uncomfortable. I've noticed plenty of fast bowlers who don't brace their leg (Johnson being one of them), but it most definitely helps. The one thing I think is crucial is a really flexible wrist. Mohammad Zahid played plenty in our club's league (before I joined up) and he was described by Lara as the fastest bowler he ever faced. I saw him playing last season and he was around 120-125, but he was bowling well within himself because he's not a young fella anymore and has had back problems. A couple of our players played with and against him about 6 or 7 years ago and both spoke about how fast he was. Our keeper said he was stood a mile back and was still taking the ball around his ears. The other player, who faced him, is a decent batter and a useful seam bowler. He said the one thing that really stood out about Mohammad Zahid was that flick of the wrist. He recalled a time when a batter he was batting with pulled Zahid for a 6 that only led to Zahid really putting in and peppering this poor batter with some horribly fierce short stuff.
     
  15. AngryRanga

    AngryRanga Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2014
    Messages:
    58
    I should be looking to keep my back and head straight and steady from the start off my run up all the way to the end of my follow through.

    Is this a true statement?
     
  16. shahidpak

    shahidpak Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2013
    Messages:
    433
    Well steyn still bowls 130+, and i dont mean the fastest boxlers will be the best, but you need to be able to bowl at least at 130+ and im sure that van zyl sont be as succesful as faster bowlers
     
  17. shahidpak

    shahidpak Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2013
    Messages:
    433
    I try to brave my front leg. When. I bowl pace. Just for fun but my brother says he cant do it because its very uncomfortable and he feels as if his knee will break if he does it....
     
  18. leftie600

    leftie600 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2012
    Messages:
    585
    Location:
    Wellington, New Zealand
    If you are accurate and don't spin the bowler you are not a spin bowler. If you spin the ball but are not accurate you will not get very far.

    Same for pace as well.
     
  19. shahidpak

    shahidpak Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2013
    Messages:
    433
    Yes, my point is that if you dont have live length it can be easily taught but ripping the ball cant really be taught if toi get used to not spinnin g the ball a lot, same for pace
     
  20. someblokecalleddave

    someblokecalleddave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2007
    Messages:
    6,306
    Location:
    Basildon, Essex, UK
    Spin bowling thread?
     
Put it out there