Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

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I'm still having issues with my position at the point of release. I've looked into all kinds of things about my action, but I am now fairly certain that I am simply not getting front on at the point of release still. It was something that was spotted weeks ago (my hips not fully rotated to front on at the point of release - obviously, meaning my chest wasn't quite front on and my arm wasn't able to get into a position to drag my fingers over the ball) and I still haven't fixed it.

I'm now thinking that I'm not bowling topspinners/googlys when it goes wrong. All that is happening is the ball is simply slipping out of the side of my hand and I'm not getting very much purchase on the ball at all. In short, I'm still a little bit side on when I am releasing the ball and so I need to work on that rotation.

It may well be a case of just using that front arm more. Any ideas on how to get more chest on at the point of release?
 
Cleanprophet said:
I'm still having issues with my position at the point of release. I've looked into all kinds of things about my action, but I am now fairly certain that I am simply not getting front on at the point of release still. It was something that was spotted weeks ago (my hips not fully rotated to front on at the point of release - obviously, meaning my chest wasn't quite front on and my arm wasn't able to get into a position to drag my fingers over the ball) and I still haven't fixed it.

I'm now thinking that I'm not bowling topspinners/googlys when it goes wrong. All that is happening is the ball is simply slipping out of the side of my hand and I'm not getting very much purchase on the ball at all. In short, I'm still a little bit side on when I am releasing the ball and so I need to work on that rotation.

It may well be a case of just using that front arm more. Any ideas on how to get more chest on at the point of release?
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I wish I could help you, but these things are so subtle and fine tuned I've not got a clue. The only thing I saw in your video's above is that you seem to stall, but that may be the result of a short run-up as you get up onto the toes for the pivot. The other thing which may be more pertinent is the right leg swings out and around, look at the Macgill video here and see how his leg doesn't swing around at all, he pushes it through and forwards, to me this might be helpful in getting front on? But that might be total tosh?
 
someblokecalleddave said:
I wish I could help you, but these things are so subtle
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I've found MacGill footage to be probably the best and most useful. But you're right, there are many subtle things and the problem is that sometimes one thing that looks wrong is often like that because of some underlying problem. That's the problem I've had. I've spotted things that are not right and thought they were the issues when actually they were caused by something else.

The front arm is something that can be fixed, the front foot across to the line of stumps was something I needed to start doing and am now doing and I do need to get a bit more front on. But, after doing some work today and watching it back it is clear that the problem I am having is the problem that was identified weeks ago - the dropping of the left shoulder. I posted videos of my bowling weeks ago with a much more upright action. For some reason, I have slipped back to old ways and dropping that left shoulder. When I do stand start drills and one step starts I stay more upright and have no problem. As soon as I start to run in, the inclination to drop that left shoulder takes over. I have to focus hard on staying upright. The whole feel is so much better when I am more upright - including getting up on my toes for that pivot.

That's what I have to do, get back to working on staying more upright and work on that alone until it is sorted. This was a video I posted on the 1st Sep:



Compare that to the two videos I posted on Tuesday and the difference is plain to see. Even though I get the ball coming out quite well, the drop of the left shoulder and lean to the left is quite pronounced. In this video I am pretty much the same sort of position that MacGill, Warne and almost any other quality legspinner is in at the point of release. It was talked about on here weeks ago (leftie mentioned it too) that a fall to the left like that will make it quite likely that the ball will slip out of the hand because it's tough to drag the fingers over the ball and impart sidespin. That video of me bowling with the snow around (back in March) showed my old action and it was pretty much as upright as the above video. Working on the googly got me into a habit of dropping the left shoulder for all deliveries and I've now got to undo that. I don't know why I didn't carry on doing the work I was doing 3 weeks ago on getting more upright.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
I wish I could help you, but these things are so subtle and fine tuned I've not got a clue. The only thing I saw in your video's above is that you seem to stall, but that may be the result of a short run-up as you get up onto the toes for the pivot. The other thing which may be more pertinent is the right leg swings out and around, look at the Macgill video here and see how his leg doesn't swing around at all, he pushes it through and forwards, to me this might be helpful in getting front on? But that might be total tosh?
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Maybe not relevant to the issue, but I think MacGill just has a bit of a different style. Thanks to the other thread I've noticed that he alone seems to plant his front foot pretty straight, only steps it inwards six inches or so, and brings the back foot through straight. This is much like a seam up bowler. My feeling is that he relies far less on a rotational drive - the others are all stepping in more, planting at an angle and arcing the back foot around.

edited to add - I think bringing the back foot around in an arc is, if not quite 'cosmetic', not really relevant to the release position - it's 'follow through' territory.
 
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C Cleanprophet I have a suggestion for you - try just throwing legspinners and gradually ramping up the speed to the max. Of course this isn't what you do in a match, I'm just proposing it as an exercise in exploring the subtleties of the spinning action and release.

Another exercise I have really been enjoying is throwing topspinners - I think there is a lot to be learned by doing this.

Grimmett mentioned that offspin was easiest to learn by throwing and then eliminating the throw but didn't mention it with legspin. I wonder if he missed a trick.
 
boogiespinner said:
Maybe not relevant to the issue, but I think MacGill just has a bit of a different style. Thanks to the other thread I've noticed that he alone seems to plant his front foot pretty straight, only steps it inwards six inches or so, and brings the back foot through straight.
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This is something I always did naturally and it didn't effect me at all. Switching to gettting the front foot to 45 degrees was a little tricky but I do it quite naturally now. I suppose it's more about what feels comfortable rather than anything technical. But, I remember in Phipotts book that he mentions MacGill (back when MacGill was very young and just starting out) and he mentions that MacGills finishing position suggests he doesn't rotate right the way around like other legspinners do. The picture showed MacGill finishing and he hadn't finished with his bowling shoulder facing the batter. However, that is something he did remedy because all footage of him for Australia shows that he does get a full rotation in. That said, his approach to the crease does carry a lot of momentum so he could get away with a reduced rotation in his early days.

boogiespinner said:
C Cleanprophet I have a suggestion for you - try just throwing legspinners and gradually ramping up the speed to the max. Of course this isn't what you do in a match, I'm just proposing it as an exercise in exploring the subtleties of the spinning action and release.

Another exercise I have really been enjoying is throwing topspinners - I think there is a lot to be learned by doing this.

Grimmett mentioned that offspin was easiest to learn by throwing and then eliminating the throw but didn't mention it with legspin. I wonder if he missed a trick.
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Any drill like that has a use I think. I've been doing bowling over 12 yards, then 15, 18 and the full length and I've been doing the Tambe drills. For me however, I just need to focus on staying upright when I bowl with energy. I stay upright, as anyone would, when bowling over short distances because the effort required is small. As soon as you have to put more effort in, I tend to drop that left shoulder and pull to the left. I just need to work on gentle run ins whilst staying upright and just build on getting more energy into the approach whilst keeping that upright position. I can do it, as the footage above shows. I was going off a 7 step approach and still managing to stay upright. I wasn't bowling 100%, but I was getting through with decent energy and keeping a fairly decent position. I have to keep working on that for a good few weeks and make that my natural position at the crease. I was doing it back in March and probably still doing it in April. Some time around June/July I started that drop of the left shoulder, so I think I can fix it with a few week's work.

One other thing I would add is that over a year ago, when I first started filming my bowling, I noticed that when I tried to bowl flat out I tended to fall to the left and lose that legspinning release position. So that propensity has always been there. It's just a natural thing to pull that left shoulder down when you try to bowl the ball a bit quicker. It would only happen when trying to really bowl with decent pace. As soon as I went back to bowling within myself, I stayed upright and bowled the legspinners again. The problem is that I've started doing that pull to the left for all deliveries now and it has become instinctice. It's a case of training that instinct out.
 
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someblokecalleddave said:
Tried a couple of non-ball bowling actions trying to get the hand reaching out. Looks okay so far. Hopefully I'll get it going with a ball tomorrow.
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The last one looks the best. Some of them it looks like your front arm might actually be up a little bit too long, but the last one looks spot on. The only thing you would say is that the bowling arm is completely vertical and you would probably want that a little less vertical. Otherwise, it looks good.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
I wish I could help you
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Interestingly, I think I've spotted something else in my action that is playing a part in my problems. Initially, the issue was simply that my left shoulder was dropping and causing me to lose the position I needed. However, I created another problem by changing the position of my stance at the crease. Previously, my front foot was on the same line as my back foot. That meant that my weight/momentum as I jumped into the crease was straight down the wicket. I started getting that front foot towards the line of the stumps, as you really should do. Without realising it (and it's obvious to see now I look at it) my weight/momentum was still moving down the wicket even thought my front foot was moving towards the line of the stumps. Obviously, as you jump into the crease and the front foot moves towards the line of the stumps, your weight should go with that front foot and then you rotate all that weight/momentum towards the target causing the pivot as you rotate around that position of the front foot. Because my weight is moving down the wicket, as it used to with my old position at the crease, and not with the front foot, I'm not over that front foot but slightly to the left of it and leaning back.

Every time I bowl from stand start, a step start and even a walk start I have no problem. As soon as I jump into the crease I start having problems. I'm sure the dropping of the left shoulder is also effected by me not getting over the front foot. I now know I have to work on getting my weight more over that front foot as well as ensuring I am more upright. Essentially, it's all about balance. At the moment, the balance is not right and it is causing me to fall to the left and lose the position I need to be in.

It's funny really. I did some work in the nets today. The release was absolutely as it should be. As soon as I went from the walk in to the run/jump in, the release had problems. I think I am very clear now on what I need to do. If I struggle to get the weight over the front foot, I have the option of going back to my old position at the crease with the front down the pitch and not towards the line of the stumps.
 
Cleanprophet said:
Interestingly, I think I've spotted something else in my action that is playing a part in my problems. Initially, the issue was simply that my left shoulder was dropping and causing me to lose the position I needed. However, I created another problem by changing the position of my stance at the crease. Previously, my front foot was on the same line as my back foot. That meant that my weight/momentum as I jumped into the crease was straight down the wicket. I started getting that front foot towards the line of the stumps, as you really should do. Without realising it (and it's obvious to see now I look at it) my weight/momentum was still moving down the wicket even thought my front foot was moving towards the line of the stumps. Obviously, as you jump into the crease and the front foot moves towards the line of the stumps, your weight should go with that front foot and then you rotate all that weight/momentum towards the target causing the pivot as you rotate around that position of the front foot. Because my weight is moving down the wicket, as it used to with my old position at the crease, and not with the front foot, I'm not over that front foot but slightly to the left of it and leaning back.

Every time I bowl from stand start, a step start and even a walk start I have no problem. As soon as I jump into the crease I start having problems. I'm sure the dropping of the left shoulder is also effected by me not getting over the front foot. I now know I have to work on getting my weight more over that front foot as well as ensuring I am more upright. Essentially, it's all about balance. At the moment, the balance is not right and it is causing me to fall to the left and lose the position I need to be in.

It's funny really. I did some work in the nets today. The release was absolutely as it should be. As soon as I went from the walk in to the run/jump in, the release had problems. I think I am very clear now on what I need to do. If I struggle to get the weight over the front foot, I have the option of going back to my old position at the crease with the front down the pitch and not towards the line of the stumps.
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Let's hope it comes together as you expect. Are you looking at the outcome as well as scrutinising the action so closely? Or are you just focussed on getting the action through the crease right before you start to talk in terms of whether the ball is spinning or not?
 
someblokecalleddave said:
Let's hope it comes together as you expect. Are you looking at the outcome as well as scrutinising the action so closely? Or are you just focussed on getting the action through the crease right before you start to talk in terms of whether the ball is spinning or not?
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How did my cue of trying to reach out with your hand and place it on the batsmans head go for you?
James
 
someblokecalleddave said:
Let's hope it comes together as you expect. Are you looking at the outcome as well as scrutinising the action so closely? Or are you just focussed on getting the action through the crease right before you start to talk in terms of whether the ball is spinning or not?
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I pretty much always look at the outcome first and then work backwards. The main thing I'm looking for is that drift. I used to get a little bit of drift but that was when I was getting a proper legspinner delivered and that was me bowling at about 80%. As soon as I tried to push it to 100% flat out, I seemed to lose that hand position (because that left shoulder dropped) and obviously lost most of the sidespin and almost all the drift. The aim is to get maximum energy through the crease whilst maintaining the legspinning delivery (that's what we all aim for I suppose). Even with the fall to the left, I could deliver a topspinner with lots of energy and a fair amount of dip. I'm just looking to keep that energy but convert that dip into drift by getting that body position correct at the point of release.

I'm quite confident now that I didn't have a psychological barrier to bowling the legspinner. It was simply a case of the ball slipping out of my hand when trying to bowl the legspinner. It looked like a topspinner but it was actually more a case of the hand being forced into that position by balance issues and not psychological issues.

I did sort of skirt around that issue of jumping into the line of the stumps and that's when I was bowling decent legspinners off the full run up back on the 1st September. I didn't realise then that my instinct was to jump at the target and not into the line of the stumps and that's why I tended to lean back and pull to the left. But I was jumping into the line of stumps reasonably well whilst staying quite upright. I'm going to have to do that over and over again until that instinct to jump in down the crease is removed and the instinct to drop the left shoulder is removed. That will probably take a good few weeks, maybe months. But I think I will have a much better bowling action at the end of it than I ever had because I've never been able to rip the legspinner flat out - only whilst bowling within myself.
 
James513 said:
How did my cue of trying to reach out with your hand and place it on the batsmans head go for you?
James
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Yeah to be honest I tried reaching out without thinking of the batsmans head, I'm bowling at my son later, I'll try and remember I've stuck a post it note on my camera ready...
DSCN4292.JPG
 
Cleanprophet said:
I pretty much always look at the outcome first and then work backwards. The main thing I'm looking for is that drift. I used to get a little bit of drift but that was when I was getting a proper legspinner delivered and that was me bowling at about 80%. As soon as I tried to push it to 100% flat out, I seemed to lose that hand position (because that left shoulder dropped) and obviously lost most of the sidespin and almost all the drift. The aim is to get maximum energy through the crease whilst maintaining the legspinning delivery (that's what we all aim for I suppose). Even with the fall to the left, I could deliver a topspinner with lots of energy and a fair amount of dip. I'm just looking to keep that energy but convert that dip into drift by getting that body position correct at the point of release.

I'm quite confident now that I didn't have a psychological barrier to bowling the legspinner. It was simply a case of the ball slipping out of my hand when trying to bowl the legspinner. It looked like a topspinner but it was actually more a case of the hand being forced into that position by balance issues and not psychological issues.

I did sort of skirt around that issue of jumping into the line of the stumps and that's when I was bowling decent legspinners off the full run up back on the 1st September. I didn't realise then that my instinct was to jump at the target and not into the line of the stumps and that's why I tended to lean back and pull to the left. But I was jumping into the line of stumps reasonably well whilst staying quite upright. I'm going to have to do that over and over again until that instinct to jump in down the crease is removed and the instinct to drop the left shoulder is removed. That will probably take a good few weeks, maybe months. But I think I will have a much better bowling action at the end of it than I ever had because I've never been able to rip the legspinner flat out - only whilst bowling within myself.
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Sounds massively complicated and difficult! Do you change your wrist position when you're bowling a lot from one delivery to another? E.g is there a significant change in wrist position from your top-spinner to your leg break, especially if you're trying to get it go down with loads of side spin?
 
Had a bowl this afternoon, didn't go to well after the series of improvements I've had recently. I'm not sure why, kind of felt like a fitness issue combined with not being that relaxed, I was sort of desperate for it to go right and was possibly trying too hard, once it didn't go right, I didn't have a definite plan to return to and kept changing my mind about what I was trying to achieve. In short I don't think I was focused enough?
 
someblokecalleddave said:
Sounds massively complicated and difficult! Do you change your wrist position when you're bowling a lot from one delivery to another? E.g is there a significant change in wrist position from your top-spinner to your leg break, especially if you're trying to get it go down with loads of side spin?
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Not really. It seems I've been mostly changing my body/shoulder position to get the topspinner/googly bowled. I started dropping that left shoulder (which some people suggest you need to do) to bowl the googly, but I was dropping it so much that it seems to have been incorporated into my action for every delivery - which is a major problem for the legspinner. I've found that the nearer I get the line of my head to the line of my left foot, the better. It also tends to get my bowling arm a little less vertical. Most top quality legspinners have their head just outside the line of their left foot (Abdul Qadir got his head right over the line of his left foot). It just means you are nice and upright, which is what you want.

Eventually, I will have to work on bowling the topspinner and googly without dropping that left shoulder very much, if at all.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
Had a bowl this afternoon, didn't go to well after the series of improvements I've had recently. I'm not sure why, kind of felt like a fitness issue combined with not being that relaxed, I was sort of desperate for it to go right and was possibly trying too hard, once it didn't go right, I didn't have a definite plan to return to and kept changing my mind about what I was trying to achieve. In short I don't think I was focused enough?
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That's something you will have to be careful of. You don't want to get into a position where you are not relaxed. You need to keep your expectations in check I think. Just go out there with an open mind and don't expect to nail it straight away. Have the attitude that you are probably not going to get it right but you're going to give it a good go.
 
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