Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

Discussion in 'Spin Bowling' started by Richard the Third, Feb 19, 2011.

Put it out there
  1. TomBowler97

    TomBowler97 Member

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    I don't think I could emulate Warne, because he is quite a small and stocky bloke, I am more like MacGill, average and quite tall. Am I right in thinking that if you have a low shoulder and a high arm, you will not be able to produce a leg break. If you are upright with a slightly lower arm (like MacGill) you will?

    What Do you think of this? Top Left Steve Smith, Top Right Yasir Shah, Bottom Left Stuart MacGill, Bottom Right Me and Middle Me. What do you think about the shoulder:arm:spin correlation? https://gyazo.com/ebc30e1c38317e4f539928cb200909a3
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2015
  2. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

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    Exactly. There are some bowlers around who have low left shoulders and high arms and you never see them bowl genuine legspinners. The best you can usually manage is a ball that is mostly overspin with a little bit of sidespin. So you can still bowl a ball that turns away but it is small turn. The balls that pitch on leg and turn down off are not possible for almost every legspinner who has a low left shoulder and a high arm.

    Warne, by the way, is about 5"11. Not small but he was always a stocky bloke, always powerfully built with naturally strong shoulders. MacGill is no taller than Warne but nowhere near as powerfully built as Warne. I'm actually a very similar height and build to Warne and always found that his approach suited me. Even so, I found that I wasn't getting enough momentum from my run in. It was gentle and a little lazy. I don't think I could really approach the crease like MacGill or Yasir Shah. I'm not even thinking about trying to emulate any legspinner with my run up. I'm just trying to run in with as much pace as possible whilst maintaining balance and control - whether that leaves me approaching the crease like Warne or MacGill is really neither here or there. It's just what works for me and, obviously, I can generate good energy at the crease from natural strength rather than having to rely on a pacey approach (which is just as well as I'm not built for speed!).
     
  3. TomBowler97

    TomBowler97 Member

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    Ah okay, Warne is actually taller than me then, I guess he just looks small on the screen! What do you recommend I do? (If you have seen the screenshot) Because I have a high arm and an upright shoulder, how do I get more spin? I get little spin and more overspin on the ball. Do you recommend a more of a Macgill position? Upright, but lower arm?

    I was also thinking about whether I need to lean forward abit more, with my head over my foot? This should encourage a later release? And MacGill is very chest on, and he gets the biggest spin out of all of them. Would this affect the imparting of spin?
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2015
  4. James513

    James513 Member

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    I think the best thing for you to do tom is to elimanate options through trial and error until you find the right approach for yourself. Because everyone is different and especially with leg spin bowling, there is no one action that works for everyone. I think all u have to do is just bowl heaps in the nets and try new actions and approaches and see what works for yourself. And if it is off season in England at the moment then there is no better time to try different things until one works. And once you find the one that works, you just groove that action until it becomes natural.
    U can also get cues, which are like little messages in your head which help you with your bowling. For example with me, I think to my self when I am bowling in practice " head over my front foot" because that helps me with getting side on at release as well as letting the ball go at the right moment. But that won't work for everyone, but it works for me. So you can also try to come up with your own cues that work for you.
    James
     
  5. someblokecalleddave

    someblokecalleddave Well-Known Member

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    Here's where I'm at with my bowling action - I'm forgetting the ball for the moment and just working on the action.
     
  6. TomBowler97

    TomBowler97 Member

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    Hi James.

    That's great advice, I will have to give that ago. I need to work on release point and getting my head over my foot, so I will give that a go.

    Tom.
     
  7. James513

    James513 Member

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    Had my third regular game for the season yesterday. Pretty comprehensive win for us in the end. I came into bat when we were struggling at 5 for 95 with 20 overs left in our innings. I wasn't hitting them that well so just tried to give strike to our number 6 batsman who was on about 30 then and hitting them well. Eventually be the end though we got our team to 5 for 196 off our 50 overs. I ended up with 32* and the other batsman 79* with a 101 run 5th wicket partnership. Pretty pleased with that. Then we bowled, with one of our openers getting 4 in his opening spell. I came on to bowl when they were 6 down. I ended up with 2 wickets for 24 runs off 8 overs. My first wicket bowled a bloke with a slider. He went on the back foot trying to cut into a gap in the field I left him at point and it just went straight through him bowling him off stump. 2nd wicket was an lbw with a toppie. I had a big breeze going from the offside to the leg side so threw in a toppie and hit him halfway up the pad right in front of middle. Should have had at least another 2 though. One of them a wrong un to a left hander who went down the wicket and missed it. The keeper didn't pick it though and missed the stumping only for it to go for 2 byes. The other was a leggie which was edged to slip who dropped a moderately easy catch, but I cant be too disappointed as slip catches are difficult. Overall a pretty good day. Todays performance gets my stats to
    3 matches
    20 overs
    8 wickets
    average of about 7.5 runs per wicket
    economy about 2.9 runs an over
    strike rate of about 15 (I think I have worked it out correctly)
    So pretty happy with the start to my season bowling wise. Hopefully I can keep it up for the whole season or even get better. I will try and post a video of myself bowling so you guys can let me know what you recon I can do better. Is there any other way to post videos of my bowling other than putting it on Youtube and then uploading it here?
    James
     
  8. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

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    That's looking good. The only thing I would say that you could add is getting over the front foot a bit more. Ideally, you would want your head position to be over your front foot and maybe even a little ahead of it. Your head is a bit behind the front foot. It probably leaves you more likely to bowl with too high a trajectory.
     
  9. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

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    The later you release the ball, the more sidespin you are able to impart. Release the ball too early and you will not get much turn. If you are releasing a few balls so early that they are full and on the legside, then chances are that the latest you are releasing the ball is probably still a bit short of the ideal position.

    The best way to fix that is using that drill I mentioned. Bowl over a short distance because that forces you to release it late. Get that feeling of the later release and your fingers dragging across the ball. Also, video yourself from behind sometimes as well because this is a great position for watching the hand position (you should see the back of the hand - if you see the side of the hand, then it is more overspin and, of course, any sight of the palm of the hand and you are getting towards the googly). You can pretty much tell which balls are released too early because they will be the balls where you see the side of your hand (I get the feeling that you don't release it so early that you are bowling googlys but just a tiny bit too early and are producing more overspin than sidespin).

    Finally, video yourself from fully side on and slow it down to watch the point of release. This video of Steve Smith is a very good example of the release point:



    Film your action from a similar angle and see how close you are to that release point.
     
  10. TomBowler97

    TomBowler97 Member

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    Sounds like you are going well James! I believe if you click more options when writing a post or "upload a file" you may be able to upload a video from there. However, I am unsure as I normally upload onto her from my YouTube channel.
     
  11. TomBowler97

    TomBowler97 Member

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    I think you have hit the nail on the head. There are many times that the ball is too full and on the leg side. Such as https://gyazo.com/4c65bfae82a79d5de512b898e9238e14.

    Maybe the high arm has never been a problem with the drag downs or full tosses. Maybe it has just been how early I have been releasing the ball, I think the inconsistency in my action is from different release points, the accurate balls have been released perfecly with good spin, the early balls are really full. You can see that in my last video from the batsmans view. However, I am gonna try and lower my arm a little, and also get my head over my foot, as I believe leaning forward will encourage this.
    I think I went wrong straight away by learning all variations instead of focusing on one and perfecting it. My googly is my best delivery, sadly, I genuinely have more confidence that I will pitch that then the leggie, my googly is 95% accurate, it is not picked and it turns a long way. The Top spinner is also very accurate, so now I have just got to perfect my leg Spinner.

    So the plan is, to work on one thing at a time. First the releasing time, second the leaning forward and thirdly the arm height.

    Whats your opinion on what I just said about the high arm might not be the problem with my spin? And could the early releases also be the reason for the scrambled seam through the air? I also think that the reason for my abrupt follow through is because of the early release, as there is no momentum to carry forward.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2015
  12. someblokecalleddave

    someblokecalleddave Well-Known Member

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    Googly Syndrome:eek:
     
  13. someblokecalleddave

    someblokecalleddave Well-Known Member

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    James, tell me how you bowl your 'Slider'.
     
  14. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

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    That is the type of ball you will get with the early release. You will probably also get a feeling that the ball is slipping out of your hand - that is, essentially, because it is doing exactly that. The drag downs come purely from releasing it too late. The spinning finger gets stuck on top of the ball and as you are past the point of ideal release, the spinning finger forces the ball downwards, producing a drag down. If you have a problem with the early release, then producing drag downs in practice is not a bad thing as it is a sign that you are getting close to the ideal release position.

    That's a very common thing. People think that they have the legspinner and move onto the variations. But having the legspinner isn't the same as being able to bowl a legspinner. Having the legspinner means that you have, pretty much, mastered it or close to it. Until you have it at a high standard you are at risk of losing it by working on something like the googly. I was in the same position and I ended up with the googly being my best delivery.

    This is the thing to remember with regards your issue with the early release: the googly often relies on an earlier release. Developing the googly will often mean that you start releasing the ball a bit earlier and then that can lead to that early release becoming muscle memory and all deliveries then have that early release. As mentioned before, the early release ensures that you will not be able to get more than about 10%-15% sidespin on the ball. Probably the best way to develop and bowl the googly is to work on releasing it with the later release (which you can do). The googly isn't as good and you will tend to bowl legspinners at times when trying to bowl the googly. This is what we saw with Warne. His googly was never the best but he accepted that because to develop a better googly would mean having a higher arm and an earlier release. It makes it easier to pick and, more importantly, it risks weakening your legspinner.

    I would focus only on the later release. The reason for that is that by simply releasing it later you will naturally get your head over your front foot. Also, the lower arm can only really be worked on once you are releasing it at the right time.

    This is something that I've been struggling with, so I know all about it. My stock ball became a ball that was about 90% overspin and 10% sidespin with the occaisonal topspinner and googly thrown in. I've been down to the nets today and bowling to a batter. After a week or two of work over a shorter distance, I have now found that my stock ball is about 70%-80% overspin and 20%-30% sidespin with the occaisonal topspinner thrown in and the occaisonal legspinner thrown in (ie 50% overspin and 50% sidespin). I was hoping that I would jump back to the 50% overspin/50% sidespin ball, but it's looking like it will be a gradual process of getting more sidespin and less overspin bit by bit. I would imagine that within 2 or 3 weeks I will be back to the 50/50 ball. The good news is that I was turning most balls away from the bat, causing the batter a few problems and getting a bit of confidence back in my bowling. The full legside ball happened only 3 or 4 times in 30mins of bowling. In short, that muscle memory you have for the release point has to be gradually altered. It might be different for you, but for me it looks like I won't be able to go from releasing it at the point I was (which, from side on footage I took, was actually at vertical and even before the vertical for some balls - which is way, way, way too early) to the correct point straight away. I will have to release it a little bit later and then work on releasing it a little bit later again, until I am releasing at the point I need to be releasing it. That means going from a 90/10 ball to a 80/20 ball to a 70/30 ball to a 60/40 ball to the final 50/50 ball.
     
  15. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

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    I'm sure this will be connected to the issues that myself and Tom are having. As far as I am aware, the key to bowling the slider is to release it very late and right out of the font of the hand. Those bowlers who bowl very good topspinners and googlys tend not to be able to bowl the slider. That tends to be a ball that is bowled by those who bowl a good legspinner with plenty of sidespin.

    It's a great ball to have and one I think legspinners should work on before working on the googly.
     
  16. TomBowler97

    TomBowler97 Member

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    I don't think its that Dave, I just think that my googly is a more effective delivery then my leggie at this current stage, similar to Imran Tahir I guess!
     
  17. TomBowler97

    TomBowler97 Member

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    I agree. I struggle to bowl the slider, I normally just try and flick it out the front, normally resulting in a drag down, hence why I don't bowl it. It will be something to work on in the unforseeable future, I need to get release point correct before I develop any new deliveries.
     
  18. TomBowler97

    TomBowler97 Member

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    Good advice. I agree about the googly situation, with me developing that early, it has made my release all my deliveries early. I know this is only early days but I bowled about 20 balls earlier before it got dark on the driveway from a standing start, practicing leaning towards the batsman and with the later release, and I have to say it went very well, every ball landed on the mat I was using, (1 yard with, 3 yards length) early days but looking promising. In response to the % of over spin to side spin ratio, I would say I am 90:10, so I will be trying to get mine to 70:30 gradually.

    With the release point, I am sometimes releasing the ball behind my head, so no wonder the scrambled scream happens with a leg side full toss is bowled! My release point is really key so I will be definitely focusing on that.
     
  19. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

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    I think that's the way to do it. I used to bowl 50/50 and I suspect I didn't just go from 50/50 to 90/10. It was probably gradual and so it will most likely be fixed gradually also.

    Yeah, I filmed my bowling from side on and was shocked to see that some balls I was bowling were also delivered from behind my head (or, at least, the release was starting behind my head). Those balls had a very high trajectory, as you would expect. It's difficult to go from that to releasing it at the correct point in one stage because that instinct to release it early is hard wired. It will have to be worked on, as I say, gradually. Remember, if at any point you feel you are releasing it too early, go back to bowling to a shorter distance or a step/stand start. Don't carry on trying to release it later. I've experienced that. One day you are getting the release right and the next day you are back to an early release. Equally, you will find that once you bowl one that is released too early, it is very likely that the next one will be too early. Be careful with that because you want to stamp out all early releases completely. Each one you bowl is reinforcing something you want to get rid of, so make sure to stay in control of it. It's why I struggled to fix it during the season because I'd work on it through the week and then play at the weekend and go back to old habbits. Any time you feel you are releasing it too early, stop and take a break or bowl off 12 yards.
     
  20. The Edge Of Willow

    The Edge Of Willow Member

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    I don't think Warne's front foot position at the crease helped this either. In the last couple of weeks I've been changing my front foot position from across my body (with a big twist around the front foot) to aligned just to the left of my back foot (with more of a step-over). It seems to have made the googly much easier. I hardly have a good one, since I've never really tried it, but I'm getting the wrist into a much better position to bowl it. It actually coming out with side-spin rather than just being a top-spinner.

    To me a decent googly seems almost impossible to bowl with the front foot landing across the body, at least without compromising other parts of an action need for a good leg-spinner. The need to rotate so far at the moment of release seems to prevent bringing over the arm in position for a half-decent googly.
     
Put it out there