Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

Discussion in 'Spin Bowling' started by Richard the Third, Feb 19, 2011.

Put it out there
  1. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2013
    Messages:
    726
    It is interesting all this business of the lean/fall to the left and the position of the head in relation to the front foot. Seam bowlers look to have a position that sees a line straight from the front foot all the way to the ball in the hand. For most wrist spinners, the best position is to have the head on the same line as the front foot. But of course, there are exceptions and it all depends on what works for you. The most notable exception is Warne. His head does pull to the left a fair bit and his bowling arm is above his front foot, just like a seam bowler. The key thing is balance. Mishra's head pulled to the left, just like Warne's. However, for him it caused a loss of balance that also meant he lost position for the legspinner.

    This is something I've been working on a lot recently. My balance was not right at all as I hit the crease and it lead to my bowling arm falling behind me and then, as it rose into the delivery position, it was moving towards legside. It's something I've mentioned before on here in the past. You really want the bowling arm moving straight as it rises into the delivery position. Some bowlers, like Ish Sodhi, move the arm to the offside as it rises into the delivery position and that's ok. But I think the ideal movement is completely straight so that the line the arm is on as it rises behind you is the same line it is on as the ball is released.

    For some reason, as I hit the crease I was leaning back. My front arm pushed out towards the legside and my bowling arm moved towards the legside and made it impossible to then flick the wrist properly so that my fingers dragged across the ball and put a good amount of sidespin on the ball. I worked on getting my head over my front foot and pulling the front arm towards 1st slip. It felt to me like my head was over my front foot but when I watched it back, I found myself in the same position that Warne got into with the bowling arm above the front foot. The main thing is that the balance was good and the bowling arm moved on a straight line helping me produce legspinners. So, in the end, the position that works for me is the position Warne gets into.

    This video comparison shows it very well. On the left you have Adam Zampa and on the right is Warne. Look at the head positions in relation to the front foot. Very different and, at the end of the day, it's all about what feels comfortable and what is balanced. Balance is absolutely fundamental. A lot of legspinners will have issues with falling away to the left with Warne's action. Zampa is actually slighly inside the line of his front and it means his follow through is front on because he loses a bit of rotation - get over that front foot but maybe not as much as Zampa:

     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2015
  2. someblokecalleddave

    someblokecalleddave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2007
    Messages:
    6,321
    Location:
    Basildon, Essex, UK
    Have you seen this?
     
  3. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2013
    Messages:
    726
    That's a good analysis of the importance of approach and balance. But, of course, for seam bowling only. For us spinners, we want to jump into the line of the stumps so much of what that girl is doing is actually pretty good for a wrist spinner. Funnily enough, the position she delivers the ball from is very much like the position Warne delivered the ball from. They make a big deal of her being "off balance" but actually her follow through is very, very similar in both deliveries.

    Here's a little example of my bowling from today. The balance is much better (there's no lean away and no open chest), but I would just like to get my head/chest over my front foot a bit more to ensure that that bowling arm moves on a straight line (it's a little bit towards the stumps here and not completely in the channel):

     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2015
  4. GoldenArm

    GoldenArm Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2009
    Messages:
    297
    Is this you going full out or holding back just for the sake of practice? and Dave what happened to Macca? He was the best person on here by miles, I can't see any posts from him recently.
     
  5. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2013
    Messages:
    726
    It's just practice stuff really. No real run up and no jump/explosion through the crease. I'd estimate that this is about 50%-60% of the energy/speed/effort that I'd get when bowling full out.
     
  6. GoldenArm

    GoldenArm Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2009
    Messages:
    297
    Have you got any footage of you going flat out?
     
  7. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2013
    Messages:
    726
    Not really. This is a video from March this year and I'm probably bowling close to flat out but off a relaxed run up. The problem I had was that when I bowled flat out, I lost the legspin release position so I always bowled about 80%-90%. It's why I made some changes to my action, to try and get a more solid base that allows me to bowl flat out and still bowl the legspinner. As you can see from this footage, my front foot is on the same line as my back foot. I started getting the front foot right across my body but that produced a lean away as I jumped into the delivery stride (that's what I'm working on fixing with the step starts). That head position is something I've got into always, with the bowling arm right above the standing leg. I'm just working on reducing the lean to the left, pulling the front arm more towards 1st slip than leg slip (as it is in this video) and getting the bowling arm a little bit lower:

     
  8. TomBowler97

    TomBowler97 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2014
    Messages:
    152
    Location:
    UK
    Would you still say that your shoulder is quite upright compared to Warne's? I think that I should be upright shoulder with just a little bit of a lower arm? Similar to this position, however, just a slightly later release and leaning over? [​IMG]
    https://gyazo.com/baa270352d9efcda730d5c9d1ca91120 What do you think? And what do you think of my action on a whole?
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2015
  9. GoldenArm

    GoldenArm Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2009
    Messages:
    297

    Yeah the shape on the ball looks great but there's a huge falling away almost into the side netting that's going to make consistency difficult. Think you've pretty much just got to think about pulling that lead arm into the ribcage/left thigh and following through strongly towards the batsman and you'll be looking good. I'm not sure the walking up actually helps, if I was going to give you any advice at all I'd say build up more momentum and leave yourself less to do right at the end, putting in all that late effort has got to be making life more difficult.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2015
  10. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2013
    Messages:
    726
    That fall away to the left actually became a lot worse within 2 months of that footage. It certainly does hurt consistency. But it also tended to collapse when I bowled flat out. That's why I ended up finding myself having to do that work to get my chest/head going much more at the target and nearer to the line of the front foot. I did post this footage from a couple of months earlier:



    There isn't the same falling away to the left in that. I think working on the googly led to me dropping the left shoulder more and more to the point were my follow through was causing me to fall into the side netting at times. It was a gradual thing that happened over a few months.

    Regarding the run up. This is something I was looking at back in September. This was the change I came up with back then:



    I was using that longer run up purely because I came to the same conclusion as you, that having create all the energy at the crease was not ideal. I don't have to really sprint in like MacGill or Yashir Shah, but I do need to get a bit more energy into the run up. I worked out a 7 step approach a couple of months ago and focused on trying to keep that left shoulder upright. It was working but I was still not quite getting my momentum going forward enough. I was still falling to the left a little. I'm getting there. I started having issues with releasing the ball too early as well. I'm getting all that sorted now. As I said before, it's all about that centre of balance and getting the movement of the bowling shoulder coming up and through the line of the lead shoulder with, as you say, the follow through right at the target.
     
  11. TomBowler97

    TomBowler97 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2014
    Messages:
    152
    Location:
    UK
    @Cleanprophet this is a recent side on video of my action with my later release, It is still earlier than I thought it was, but I am getting good spin and its accurate, and the ball isnt slipping out. What do you think?



    I apologise about the size I videod it on my phone! Recommend going to the channel to watch it.
     
  12. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2013
    Messages:
    726
    That looks absolutey fine to me. There is a suggestion that a 60 degree angle is the angle to look for, but I wouldn't worry about that. It's simply about releasing it late enough to allow your fingers to rip over the ball and to eliminate the possibility of the ball slipping out of your hand. It looks as it should to me and if it feels good and is spinning plenty, then all you need to do is just repeat that over and over again.
     
  13. TomBowler97

    TomBowler97 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2014
    Messages:
    152
    Location:
    UK
    By 60 degree angle do you mean my bowling arm height? And yep, It isn't slipping and is spinning more than I used to! So if that works when I get down to nets, thats what I will stick with, and I do think it will work, I have been doing this for a couple of weeks now and I havent found a fault, yet. I will just keep working on it!
     
  14. GoldenArm

    GoldenArm Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2009
    Messages:
    297


    My coach has started filming me during training sessions so I've just edited together a few deliveries on iMovie to see what you guys think. My bowling had got really sloppy the last couple of seasons as my batting overtook it so I'm working on some basics to try and get it back up to scratch. Mostly keeping that left arm tight to my side and stopping it pulling away toward the covers which was a lethal habit I had picked up and just makes me so inconsistent.generally I'm just trying to smooth everything out and get it feeling natural after making these adjustments, my follow through looks a little abbreviated to me but it doesn't seem to be having a negative outcome. It's not there yet but it definitely feels a lot better and the consistency is coming slowly. There is zero spin on this surface so you really have to bowl tight, good practice! The old boy from the net next door offered to come and be my victim , i do prefer to practice 50% of the time with a real batsman if possible. Any observations very welcome!
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2015
    Liz Ward likes this.
  15. leftie600

    leftie600 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2012
    Messages:
    585
    Location:
    Wellington, New Zealand
    I agree, maybe bowling on a surface with zero spin is making you too concerned with accuracy so you don't quite finish your action?

    Been there myself and nearly lost my drift and dip because of winter training on surfaces like that.
     
  16. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2013
    Messages:
    726
    That's a very loose grip you have there. The whole grip and wrist looks nice and relaxed and ready to whip. Maybe it's just the footage, but it looks like the ball has no sidespin on it. Looks like a topspinner release, but that might just be the footage.

    Your chest is quite open as you hit the crease, with your head leaning a fair way back. It then comes back into line as you deliver the ball and the position as you deliver the ball looks very good. But, that head position might be having an effect.

    I noticed your front arm pulls way out towards point. I used to have the problem of my front arm directed towards leg slip. From what I've seen and experienced, the best place to have that front arm pulling towards is around 1st slip. Might well be that the front arm direction is part of the reason the head leans back because it will be pulling you to the off-side I'd have thought.
     
    GoldenArm likes this.
  17. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2013
    Messages:
    726
    Yeah. Imagine that with your arm completely upright you are creating a 90 degree angle between that arm and the ground. Moving the arm/upper body towards the ground will then create a different angle. The idea is that a 60 degree angle is ideal, but I don't think many legspinners actually get to that 60 degree angle. It's more like 70-75 degrees. The main thing is to get the arm forward enough so that you are able to drag your fingers across the ball, whatever angle that is for you.
     
  18. GoldenArm

    GoldenArm Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2009
    Messages:
    297
    I really can't see the seam at all in the video the ball is just too old and dark. Generally though I have no problem with side spin, I've had captains tell me I spin it too much sideways which always makes me scratch my head. I kind of get what they're saying that if you're moving it more than a bats width you're going to be spinning past the edge but still, spin is never a bad thing surely!!

    You're spot on about my front arm, next session I'm going to spend really looking over my left shoulder to get more side on. Five months to go till the new season starts so plenty of time to practice thankfully.
     
  19. GoldenArm

    GoldenArm Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2009
    Messages:
    297
    Could well be, but I think it's also that I'm just thinking quite hard about everything as I'm coming in to bowl and not quite moving with unconscious freedom. Could take me weeks even a couple of months to bowl exactly how I want with freedom and really get through my action completely.
     
  20. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2013
    Messages:
    726
    Might be worth filming your bowling from behind and close up, just to check that release. I used to get lots of sidepspin and, quite often, too much. Then I started to spin it less and less. When I checked the release, I was putting less sidespin on it. I've bowled on all kinds of surfaces and I told myself, when it didn't turn, that it was probably just the surface. In fact, it was my release.

    Having that front arm pull towards point will ensure you get nicely chest on, but it will probably also mean less rotation because that front shoulder is already quite open early on in the delivery.

    As you say, this is the perfect time to work on it and get it sorted for the next season. I don't think it will be too difficult to get that front arm more towards 1st slip. From my experience, it may only take a few sessions.
     
    GoldenArm likes this.
Put it out there