Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

Discussion in 'Spin Bowling' started by Richard the Third, Feb 19, 2011.

Put it out there
  1. TomBowler97

    TomBowler97 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2014
    Messages:
    152
    Location:
    UK

    I will have to experiment in off season with high arm or low arm, and if high arm is better, I will practice releasing at the same time and a bit later.
     
  2. someblokecalleddave

    someblokecalleddave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2007
    Messages:
    6,306
    Location:
    Basildon, Essex, UK
    Was the 50 wickets in adult games?
     
  3. TomBowler97

    TomBowler97 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2014
    Messages:
    152
    Location:
    UK
    There was 40 in Adults and 10 in junior matches. Seasons figures were 159-12-708-50

    I took 18 on a Saturday, 22 on a Sunday and 10 in my 3/4 juniour matches.

    Just had a look on play cricket.
     
  4. TomBowler97

    TomBowler97 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2014
    Messages:
    152
    Location:
    UK
    From What I gather, are you saying that there is no problem with producing leg spinners from a high arm, it is just making sure that I release at the correct time and make sure I drag my fingers over the ball? Have I interpreted that correctly?
     
  5. someblokecalleddave

    someblokecalleddave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2007
    Messages:
    6,306
    Location:
    Basildon, Essex, UK
    Blimey - what you worried about then? I'd ignore everything we're saying on here and just get on with it. You sound like a superb bowler! Why are you seeking advice from a bunch of old duffers who are struggling with their bowling and you're going along with figures like that? We should be asking you how you've done it!!!
     
  6. TomBowler97

    TomBowler97 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2014
    Messages:
    152
    Location:
    UK
    Haha cheers Dave! Thing is that was back when I was 5ft and it was easy to throw the ball up there, because I had to else it wouldn't get to the other end! Since my growth spurt last year I haven't been the same bowler, so I guess I am trying to return to the bowler I once was and also try and cut out the bad ball every over, and just be confident. I want to find a repeatable action that works for me which I think I have found now.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2015
  7. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2013
    Messages:
    720
    Most wrist spinners will be able to produce a legspinner with decent revs on it from a high arm, unless they have small hands/fingers. But, you need to keep that left shoulder quite upright. The more the left shoulder drops, the harder it is for you to get purchase on the ball because you can't get your fingers on top of the ball. Warne dropped his left shoulder a bit, but he had a lower arm. Abdul Qadir had a high arm but didn't drop his left shoulder.
     
  8. TomBowler97

    TomBowler97 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2014
    Messages:
    152
    Location:
    UK
    I have quite small hands I think, when I grip the ball, my third finger isn't really bent because it is uncomfortable.
     
  9. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2013
    Messages:
    720
    What is your hand span (from the tip of your thumb to the tip of your little finger)?
     
  10. TomBowler97

    TomBowler97 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2014
    Messages:
    152
    Location:
    UK
    Stretched? Hand span is roughly 20.5 cm.
    Also, back to the shoulder arm situation. I think something like MacGill would work? He doesn't have a high arm nor a low arm, and his shoulder is upright, and he got huge spin on the ball, more than Warne did.
    https://gyazo.com/4329058d5610b8ace89a9bf67b3feba3
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2015
  11. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2013
    Messages:
    720
    20.5cm isn't small. That's about average, so you shouldn't have any problems getting your fingers over the ball (mine are about 23 cm).

    I would say that MacGill's action is a good one to look at and use as a reference. There's footage of MacGill bowling in Rawalpindi in 1998 and his action there is a very good action to copy. As you say, his arm is fairly high but he doesn't drop that left shoulder very much at all.

    The thing to remember is that you have to find the action that works for you. Depending on your build and on what feels comfortable, you might be going down the wrong path completely in trying to bowl in a manner similar to Warnes or you might be getting it all wrong to try and emulate MacGill. In my experience, most bowlers are more likely to get results bowling like MacGill (good pacey run up, no real drop of the left shoulder and don't worry about the high arm). Warne was powerfully built and could generate all the pace/energy he needed in the last step or two. Most bowlers will need to get that pace and energy from their whole run up. Part of Warne's effort in getting energy on the ball was in dropping the left shoulder a bit but it didn't effect him because his arm was lower.

    In my experience, it doesn't take much for you to lose the potion where you can drag your fingers across the ball. This is where having a well drilled action is vital. Consistency in left shoulder position and bowling arm position gives you control over what you bowl.
     
    Liz Ward likes this.
  12. TomBowler97

    TomBowler97 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2014
    Messages:
    152
    Location:
    UK
    I don't think I could emulate Warne, because he is quite a small and stocky bloke, I am more like MacGill, average and quite tall. Am I right in thinking that if you have a low shoulder and a high arm, you will not be able to produce a leg break. If you are upright with a slightly lower arm (like MacGill) you will?

    What Do you think of this? Top Left Steve Smith, Top Right Yasir Shah, Bottom Left Stuart MacGill, Bottom Right Me and Middle Me. What do you think about the shoulder:arm:spin correlation? https://gyazo.com/ebc30e1c38317e4f539928cb200909a3
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2015
  13. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2013
    Messages:
    720
    Exactly. There are some bowlers around who have low left shoulders and high arms and you never see them bowl genuine legspinners. The best you can usually manage is a ball that is mostly overspin with a little bit of sidespin. So you can still bowl a ball that turns away but it is small turn. The balls that pitch on leg and turn down off are not possible for almost every legspinner who has a low left shoulder and a high arm.

    Warne, by the way, is about 5"11. Not small but he was always a stocky bloke, always powerfully built with naturally strong shoulders. MacGill is no taller than Warne but nowhere near as powerfully built as Warne. I'm actually a very similar height and build to Warne and always found that his approach suited me. Even so, I found that I wasn't getting enough momentum from my run in. It was gentle and a little lazy. I don't think I could really approach the crease like MacGill or Yasir Shah. I'm not even thinking about trying to emulate any legspinner with my run up. I'm just trying to run in with as much pace as possible whilst maintaining balance and control - whether that leaves me approaching the crease like Warne or MacGill is really neither here or there. It's just what works for me and, obviously, I can generate good energy at the crease from natural strength rather than having to rely on a pacey approach (which is just as well as I'm not built for speed!).
     
  14. TomBowler97

    TomBowler97 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2014
    Messages:
    152
    Location:
    UK
    Ah okay, Warne is actually taller than me then, I guess he just looks small on the screen! What do you recommend I do? (If you have seen the screenshot) Because I have a high arm and an upright shoulder, how do I get more spin? I get little spin and more overspin on the ball. Do you recommend a more of a Macgill position? Upright, but lower arm?

    I was also thinking about whether I need to lean forward abit more, with my head over my foot? This should encourage a later release? And MacGill is very chest on, and he gets the biggest spin out of all of them. Would this affect the imparting of spin?
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2015
  15. James513

    James513 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2015
    Messages:
    36
    I think the best thing for you to do tom is to elimanate options through trial and error until you find the right approach for yourself. Because everyone is different and especially with leg spin bowling, there is no one action that works for everyone. I think all u have to do is just bowl heaps in the nets and try new actions and approaches and see what works for yourself. And if it is off season in England at the moment then there is no better time to try different things until one works. And once you find the one that works, you just groove that action until it becomes natural.
    U can also get cues, which are like little messages in your head which help you with your bowling. For example with me, I think to my self when I am bowling in practice " head over my front foot" because that helps me with getting side on at release as well as letting the ball go at the right moment. But that won't work for everyone, but it works for me. So you can also try to come up with your own cues that work for you.
    James
     
  16. someblokecalleddave

    someblokecalleddave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2007
    Messages:
    6,306
    Location:
    Basildon, Essex, UK
    Here's where I'm at with my bowling action - I'm forgetting the ball for the moment and just working on the action.
     
  17. TomBowler97

    TomBowler97 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2014
    Messages:
    152
    Location:
    UK
    Hi James.

    That's great advice, I will have to give that ago. I need to work on release point and getting my head over my foot, so I will give that a go.

    Tom.
     
  18. James513

    James513 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2015
    Messages:
    36
    Had my third regular game for the season yesterday. Pretty comprehensive win for us in the end. I came into bat when we were struggling at 5 for 95 with 20 overs left in our innings. I wasn't hitting them that well so just tried to give strike to our number 6 batsman who was on about 30 then and hitting them well. Eventually be the end though we got our team to 5 for 196 off our 50 overs. I ended up with 32* and the other batsman 79* with a 101 run 5th wicket partnership. Pretty pleased with that. Then we bowled, with one of our openers getting 4 in his opening spell. I came on to bowl when they were 6 down. I ended up with 2 wickets for 24 runs off 8 overs. My first wicket bowled a bloke with a slider. He went on the back foot trying to cut into a gap in the field I left him at point and it just went straight through him bowling him off stump. 2nd wicket was an lbw with a toppie. I had a big breeze going from the offside to the leg side so threw in a toppie and hit him halfway up the pad right in front of middle. Should have had at least another 2 though. One of them a wrong un to a left hander who went down the wicket and missed it. The keeper didn't pick it though and missed the stumping only for it to go for 2 byes. The other was a leggie which was edged to slip who dropped a moderately easy catch, but I cant be too disappointed as slip catches are difficult. Overall a pretty good day. Todays performance gets my stats to
    3 matches
    20 overs
    8 wickets
    average of about 7.5 runs per wicket
    economy about 2.9 runs an over
    strike rate of about 15 (I think I have worked it out correctly)
    So pretty happy with the start to my season bowling wise. Hopefully I can keep it up for the whole season or even get better. I will try and post a video of myself bowling so you guys can let me know what you recon I can do better. Is there any other way to post videos of my bowling other than putting it on Youtube and then uploading it here?
    James
     
  19. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2013
    Messages:
    720
    That's looking good. The only thing I would say that you could add is getting over the front foot a bit more. Ideally, you would want your head position to be over your front foot and maybe even a little ahead of it. Your head is a bit behind the front foot. It probably leaves you more likely to bowl with too high a trajectory.
     
  20. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2013
    Messages:
    720
    The later you release the ball, the more sidespin you are able to impart. Release the ball too early and you will not get much turn. If you are releasing a few balls so early that they are full and on the legside, then chances are that the latest you are releasing the ball is probably still a bit short of the ideal position.

    The best way to fix that is using that drill I mentioned. Bowl over a short distance because that forces you to release it late. Get that feeling of the later release and your fingers dragging across the ball. Also, video yourself from behind sometimes as well because this is a great position for watching the hand position (you should see the back of the hand - if you see the side of the hand, then it is more overspin and, of course, any sight of the palm of the hand and you are getting towards the googly). You can pretty much tell which balls are released too early because they will be the balls where you see the side of your hand (I get the feeling that you don't release it so early that you are bowling googlys but just a tiny bit too early and are producing more overspin than sidespin).

    Finally, video yourself from fully side on and slow it down to watch the point of release. This video of Steve Smith is a very good example of the release point:



    Film your action from a similar angle and see how close you are to that release point.
     
Put it out there