Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

Discussion in 'Spin Bowling' started by Richard the Third, Feb 19, 2011.

Put it out there
  1. SLA

    SLA Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2011
    Messages:
    915

    It really annoys me when non-scientists throw around the term "energy" without qualifying it. What type of energy? Kinetic energy? Potential strain energy? Do you even know the difference? Its poor science and even worse coaching. Trying to blind cricketers with jargon that you yourself don't even appear to understand is just a way of boosting your own ego. As for using the term "force vector" when trying to engage with bowlers, give me a ************** break.

    Try explaining it clearly: if you jump into your action with a bit of speed and then pivot hard around your front leg, then your arm will come over quicker. The quicker the arm, the more spin you get (all else being equal).


    None of this is rocket science, its stuff that all spin bowling coaches have been teaching for years.
     
  2. Spin King23

    Spin King23 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2014
    Messages:
    51
    Nice article. It was good to see the science behind what you were saying. What drills could I do to help with this?
     
    Max Andrews likes this.
  3. boogiespinner

    boogiespinner Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2014
    Messages:
    550
    Just had a lovely little net session. Mostly topspin but very happy with the flight and spin rate. But producing the same in matches is another matter. I still feel I need to bowl to an empty net for a little while before I'm producing the good stuff, and even then it's still erratic.

    Two matches this weekend, tomorrow I probably won't bowl spin as it's a league thing, but Sunday is a friendly so I might get a few overs to do whatever I want.

    I am going to take advice offered on this forum and organise a professional coaching session or two. Can't do any harm :)
     
  4. Max Andrews

    Max Andrews Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2015
    Messages:
    51
    Location:
    straya
    Sorry, I haven’t responded sooner. These are a few drills which I recommend to help with the movements. I’m happy to have a look at the video of your bowling if you want because it’s impossible to give you individual feedback when I can’t see what you’re doing. However, these are few things I would recommend for trying to train the movements I mentioned in the article.

    As far as having more momentum in your run-up, this is a drill that was recommended to me by Shawn Flegler, who you might have seen on the Cricket Victoria coaching videos. He said to run in like a fast bowler but still bowl with your leg spin action. This trains your body to move more explosively and to learn to handle the extra force. You should see this extra momentum translate over into your normal bowling action.

    This next drill trains the back leg drive. It is important to take the time to progress this into your game, as rushing it won’t allow you to receive the full benefits.

    You want to start in your delivery stride, when starting out with this drill it’s best to have both feet facing the target (it just makes it easier).

    To start the drill lift your front leg and drive out with your back leg. You are trying to extend you ankle, knee and hip joints before your front foot lands. This will take a lot of time and patience and requires a lot of repetition.

    The final drill helps to progress this new movement into your bowling action.

    Begin with your hips open to the target and shoulders close off. You are holding a resistance band at about shoulder height with your bowling hand and your front arm is facing the target with the palm of your hand facing the batter.

    Next, push out towards the target with your bowling arm, this will launch the trunk forward. It is important to make sure your force vector, which is the angle from the ankle to knee, still points to your front hip and is NOT TOO VERTICAL.

    Keep driving out towards the target and make sure to stabilise and fully extend your front leg, as you finish the action.

    I hope this helps, let me know how you get on. I would definitely recommend sending in some footage so we can personalise it more for you, but good luck to you mate.
     
    Cleanprophet likes this.
  5. someblokecalleddave

    someblokecalleddave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2007
    Messages:
    6,292
    Location:
    Basildon, Essex, UK
    Not been on here much this season, here's an update... I had a bad start to the season fitness-wise with all my efforts to get outside and practice thwarted by the terrible weather this spring. I rarely get on well in the nets, getting to bowl one ball every 5 or 6 blokes doesn't help me at all and the surface of the sports hall we net in is pretty much useless for bowling on. So first weekend in May, I get to play in a 3rd XI game where 12 blokes turn up. within the first 3 or 4 overs all balls hit my way hard and fast at mid wicket about head height, I parry it upwards and out of sight, but I'm aware it's in the air behind me and in the action of twisting and turning to try and catch as it comes down I manage to twist my knee. The twist is bad enough for me to go off and let the other bloke come on.

    I then walk around the ground taking pictures for the next hour or so unaware that another bloke in our team has got to leave. I come back to our game and get beckoned back on again. Having walked around a bit the knee doesn't feel too bad, but running in off the new longer approach to the crease that I was working on back in Nov/Dec isn't an option. As soon as I'm back on I'm thrown the ball and I take two wickets in three overs for about 21 coming off of a Terry Jenner-esque style one or two step walk-in.

    Over the following week I rest up as much as possible and by the following weekend the knee is feeling better. Again I play in a 3rd XI game and get two spells of about 5 overs each, again coming on off of 1 or two steps. I don't take wickets, but the bowling is pretty good and I go for about 4 an over and have a handful of balls dropped and beat the bat missing the edge by fractions so many times.

    2 weeks post knee injury I start to practice more, but the knee is still sore, so I have to practice a 2 step walk in. In practice this doesn't go bad - similar to the game scenarios - accurate and a lot of spin. About a month in and I try to go back to the 6 step run-in and it's sporadic in its results. I continue to work with the 2 step approach and develop and big turning leg-break that has the attribute of landing on the smooth surface and skidding on straight as a natural variation. Enthused by this, I remember SLA making the observation that I probably don't get drift because my arm is too vertical. In the next session I work with getting the arm lower and lo and behold after 10 years of not being able to get the ball to drift I quickly discover that I can get the ball to drift!!!!

    Meanwhile in game scenarios I have a nightmare spell mid June where I bowl 2'-4' over the batsmans head 3 times in one over, 7' wide of the stumps on the off-side and a drag down or two. My confidence is shot to pieces... I'm a wreck, the same thing happens the next week, but I'm taken off after two overs.

    On the same Saturdays two hours after the game in the paddock I'm landing the ball on a 2' x 1' mat wherever I put it leg-side or off-side, with massive drift and the ball turning absolutely miles, furthermore the ball is spinning so much it's dropping like a stone out of the sky with mental dip. WTF? It's got to be the Yips. The following week my captain lets me open and my whole team is behind me and it works, I bowl 10 overs and go for 55 and have 5 balls dropped!!!! This week I bowled around the 20th over and bowled a load of dross.

    Tonight in the paddock having now fully recovered I made a concerted effort to bowl off the 6 step energetic run-up. It was okay. But then went back to the 2 step Terry Jenner with the round-arm approach... Absolutely amazing - drift, dip and incredible accuracy. I just can't work out why I can't bring this to the game scenario it's mental. What I'm trying to do now is when I practice - is produce the accurate, hard-spinning ball from the outset. I'm beginning to think part of the problem is, if I start poorly in a game, my confidence is smashed straight away and I tighten up and get all tense. I've very clearly observed in the paddock that I bowl 100% better when totally relaxed, but it takes about 4 overs to get to that situation. Those four overs in match - especially the first two if they are indifferent and I get hit for 4's, the idea that I'll be relaxed by the 4th over is out of the window and it's downhill from then on.


    At the moment I’m so enamoured with the accuracy, drift, dip and massive spin I’m getting off the 2 step approach I can’t see that I’ll continue to pursue the 6 step run-in. So it seems to me that I should continue to work with this 2 step approach because it just looks like it has so much potential. In practice I can close my eyes at the top of my mark, approach the crease and bowl and still hit the target mat.


    So that’s where I am – Terry Jenner/Shane Warne at the paddock, laughing stock in a game – spraying the ball all over the shop.
     
  6. boogiespinner

    boogiespinner Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2014
    Messages:
    550
    Totally approve!

    I might even start bowling from one pace in matches.

    I bowled a couple of overs in a friendly today. It went okay, but I know I can do much better. Alas we had very few runs to play with so there weren't many overs to go around.

    Like you Dave I can be a different beast in the nets. But it takes me 50 deliveries to warm up and even then I can still spray it around. I bowled two wide full tosses today one of which was hit for four. But I produced one rather decent ball which beat a forward defense - I'm not sure that's ever happened before. I got chatting to the batsman after the game and he was really complimentary about it, this is the encouragement I need :)
     
  7. SLA

    SLA Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2011
    Messages:
    915

    If it takes 4 overs to warm up, why don't you bowl 4 overs before the match starts?
     
  8. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2013
    Messages:
    717
    I'd say, stick with the 2 step approach. At the end of the day, the aim is to beat the batsman. If you can do that better off a 2 step approach than a 6 step run in, then stick with the shorter approach. The tendency when coming in with a quicker approach is to not spin the ball up. You are much more likely to bowl the ball into the pitch, land short or even drag it down. Obviously, you will also lose drift and turn when that happens. The key is to try to still spin the ball up with the faster approach. Not easy.
     
  9. SLA

    SLA Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2011
    Messages:
    915
    Agreed - its the results that matter, not the aesthetics. No-one looks back at the stats at the end of the year and say "well, he got 20 wickets @ 12.5, but he didn't have a very good run-up". The point of bowling is to try to help your team win the game, not to look good. Work with what you've got.
     
  10. someblokecalleddave

    someblokecalleddave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2007
    Messages:
    6,292
    Location:
    Basildon, Essex, UK
    Yeah that may help, but I usually get to bowl around about 20-25 overs in, so a fair bit of time has elapsed, but definitely worth a try. Tonight practicing - same thing it took about 24 balls of indifferent to total rubbish before it came together, so your advice is worth following up I guess.
     
  11. someblokecalleddave

    someblokecalleddave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2007
    Messages:
    6,292
    Location:
    Basildon, Essex, UK
    Cheers for the feedback everyone, I'll definitely stick to the 2 step approach and just try and get it working a lot sooner.
     
  12. boogiespinner

    boogiespinner Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2014
    Messages:
    550
    That is a good suggestion SLA. In baseball pitchers always warm up in the 'bullpen'.

    Coaching session tomorrow, I am looking forward to it
     
  13. boogiespinner

    boogiespinner Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2014
    Messages:
    550
    Well coaching session was interesting. I am being discouraged from bowling like Clarrie Grimmett and working on the Terry Jenner blueprint.

    Have plenty to work on! Off to the nets now :)
     
  14. someblokecalleddave

    someblokecalleddave Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2007
    Messages:
    6,292
    Location:
    Basildon, Essex, UK
    Is that an old Terry Jenner or a young Terry Jenner?
     
  15. SLA

    SLA Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2011
    Messages:
    915
    Interesting, who was the coach and what was his rationale for the change?
     
  16. boogiespinner

    boogiespinner Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2014
    Messages:
    550
    edited... oh - not sure about the run-up yet!

    It was Scott Moody. I do feel natural bowling like Clarrie, but it's not working in that it's just too erratic. And I well demonstrated that when invited to bowl a few overs. So I don't have any objections to trying something more orthodox. It was helpful to have a pro coach observing what I was doing. He spotted that I was winding up by taking the ball behind my arse, he's recommended bringing the ball out towards mid-on, and coming through about 1 o'clock while the head and body stays on the vertical plane, pivoting a full 180 degrees. I have been bowling with my arm at around 2 o'clock and not really sure what I've been doing with my feet. I'll give it a try. I've been given a very simple walk-in runup for the match on Sunday.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2016
  17. Cleanprophet

    Cleanprophet Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2013
    Messages:
    717
    That's something I was doing as well. I think it came from working on the googly because it is much easier to bowl the googly with that sort of arm action. With the arm swinging behind you like that, it will naturally move up on a line that is angled towards the stumps rather than on a straight plane. With the legspinner, you are flicking your wrist to off, so if you arm is moving to leg then that wrist action becomes very tough to achieve. What usually happens is your wrist flicks open early (looking like a topspinner or even a googly) and the ball slips out, ending in a full toss with very little revs on it.

    I worked on exatcly what you were told to do, moving the arm towards mid-on. It did work but I found that the arm naturally swung behind me when I didn't focus on its movement. In truth, there is probably an underlying reason why the arm is swinging behind you and it is usually down to balance. For me, I think my balance was slightly off-centre (slightly towards the off-side) and so the arm naturally swung to where the centre of balance was. Getting over that front foot a bit more helped my centre of balance be where it needed to be. But, my arm still angles into the stumps a little bit. If you look at bowlers like Ish Sodhi, his arm actually angles away from the stumps a little bit (mainly because his arm does move to mid-on but ends up very vertical at the point of release). That really does help the legspin wrist action but, really, you wouldn't want such a vertical arm.
     
  18. Max Andrews

    Max Andrews Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2015
    Messages:
    51
    Location:
    straya
    It’s long overdue but here is a link to my course ‘Biomechanics in Bowling’. http://payhip.com/b/3JNy. This course will look at the biomechanical principals involved in bowling and how to implement them to improve performance. From this guide, drills have been assigned to enhance technique. There is both an interactive eBook file and a PDF document for you guys when you purchase the course. And if you’re not sure if it’s for you there is a sample of the course for you to have a look at.
     
    James513 likes this.
  19. boogiespinner

    boogiespinner Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2014
    Messages:
    550
    As part of practicing allsorts, I practised bowling flying saucers totally roundarm. It's an interesting thing to try and it's easy to pivot naturally doing it. But obviously you are bringing the ball way behind you doing that and maybe that's how I got the habit. It does help generate pace - I can't so easily find the same zip without it, so that's partly why too.

    I think I have a cure, my idea is to practice following through with the bowling around to the RHS of the body rather than the left. I suspect that is not compatible with excessively roundarm bowling, although I'm not totally sure. It is much more natural to make conscious a follow-through than a precursor, so I hope it works.

    Another thing Scott Moody exhorted is not landing on the heel of the front foot but the toe so as to keep the weight forward which I think you are echoing. I'll work on it.

    Annoyed that I didn't get a bowl in a friendly match today. We were playing a team which had many youngsters in it, we put up 200 off the 35, at the halfway stage they were something like 50 odd for 4. Skipper apologies to me after the game, saying he wanted to bowl me but it was a bit 'precarious'. We finished at 8.30pm because we had nothing but fastmen bowling off huge runups. I was just itching to get home by the end of it. On the journey home one of the quicks says he didn't even want to bowl seven overs because he has a dodgy shoulder! Earlier in batting I was called for a suicidal single after I had smacked one straight to mid-off. Run Out 4. I've had something like five innings this season, two scores in the thirties and two runouts :-(
     
  20. SLA

    SLA Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2011
    Messages:
    915

    I mix in more round-arm with high arm bowling during the course of an over, not only does it create a different angle (especially when combined with going wider on the crease), but the ball comes out subtly quicker and skids on more due to the lower trajectory and reduced topspin element.

    Oh PS; that stuff about landing on the toe is complete bullshit. No professional bowler does this. You can't brace against your front leg if you're tiptoeing through the crease. Slam your whole foot down and pivot around it like you mean it.
     
Put it out there