Wrong'un as stock delivery

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrong'un as stock delivery

Jesus that's impressive bowling wrist spin ambidextrously, if you pulled that off, imagine how freaky that would be for the batsman!

Yeah, the little-un he used to bowl good leg breaks when he was about 6 taking 9 wickets for about 30 runs bowling against me and a load of other kids whilst on holiday a couple of years back, but he seems to have lost it now. He tends to bowl straight now having gone through a 'Malinga phase' where he purposely took to bowling like Malinga round armed and fast and it was a disaster but no-one could tell him. He's now gone a lot more straight armed and bowls slow again, varying the pace, length and flight and it serves him well. Unintentionally though I think he bowls out of the back of his hand when he bowls faster (Tiger O'reilly-esque)? and that produces his off-break. It turns okay on a true wicket, but as our wicket is now starting to crumble up a bit I reckon he got some assistance off the wicket (That's my excuse)!!!

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrong'un as stock delivery

ive often pondered ambidextrous leg spin bowling. if you could possess a chinaman "off break" that turned as big as your orthodox leg break then youd have amazing versatility. im not sure what the rules are, but id imagine you can change your arm mid-over, just so long as the umpire is informed. you can imagine the look on everyones faces though when you do it!!

the 2 issues i see with it though are that any time spent practicing with your other hand is time not being spent on your orthodox hand. this is the reason why ive only ever pondered the idea and never actually attempted it (i can spin the ball hard with my left hand, but theres a huge difference between that and actually bowling over 22 yards. i think the footwork would be very difficult to get right). the other issue is that unless you are very good at formulating plans it would be tough to know what its purpose is. how many club leg spinners have a few variations but then have absolutely no idea how and when to use them? let alone their captain knowing how to set the field!! a few batsmen give you very easy opportunities for variations by playing certain shots. more often than not you can exploit their weaknesses simply by using leg break variations though, such as pace, flight, line, etc. it would be tough to know when to completely reverse your action, its tough enough knowing when to use a wrong'un or a flipper!

one thing that i think is well worth learning though, if you are genuinely ambidextrous, is throwing with your left arm in the field. it saves using your right arm and the risk of injuring your bowling arm. i can barely throw with my right though, so theres no chance with my left unfortunately.

 

[Wrongwrongun]

Re: Wrong'un as stock delivery

Yeah I agree that it would be better to practice solely on one side rather than both. I only started bowling the leftarmed wronguns because I was considering becoming a chinaman with a wrongun as a stock delivery. However I've decided to continue to work on my rightarmed legbreak. I'm not genuinely ambidexterous, just practiced and practiced until I could bowl with the wrong arm. I don't really see myself pursueing this seriously plus I wouldn't have any variation as I can't bowl a leftarmed "legbreak"!

 

[doctortran]

Re: Wrong'un as stock delivery

Hey,

I'm sort of replying to your initial post from March -- I see the thread has evolved since then, but I thought I'd add my two cents worth about your wrong'un predicament.

Bowl to your strengths. As you rightly pointed out, the basic idea of bowling right arm over the wrist is the natural strength of spinning the ball away from the right hand batsman. It is however, just an idea -- even though it is as popular as it is. I would say you are in an exceptional, and exciting position where your strength is to bowl the wrong'un. So go and do it -- bowl to your strengths.

I will admit that this has already been said, so I'll add something extra. The next step is to come up with an idea, a construction, a craft, where you can imagine being a really good bowler, awesome international bowler if you like, while having your wrong'un as your number one delivery.

One construction, or a plan, or your new convention for the unorthodox wrist spinner might be: Always remember your strengths -- you will have more revolutions than a finger spinner, you will have more drift, you will have more turn, more flight, and best of all lots of players playing across the line or supposedly "with the spin". You can even forget the leg break... any variation of a top spinner will get you LBW, bowled, and leading edges. Sound familiar? -- that of course happens to be the construction Murali uses.

Imagine -- think of ideals that can create new fields of spin bowling.

The result?

Well for batsman anyway.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrong'un as stock delivery

Hey,

I'm sort of replying to your initial post from March -- I see the thread has evolved since then, but I thought I'd add my two cents worth about your wrong'un predicament.

Bowl to your strengths. As you rightly pointed out, the basic idea of bowling right arm over the wrist is the natural strength of spinning the ball away from the right hand batsman. It is however, just an idea -- even though it is as popular as it is. I would say you are in an exceptional, and exciting position where your strength is to bowl the wrong'un. So go and do it -- bowl to your strengths.

I will admit that this has already been said, so I'll add something extra. The next step is to come up with an idea, a construction, a craft, where you can imagine being a really good bowler, awesome international bowler if you like, while having your wrong'un as your number one delivery.

One construction, or a plan, or your new convention for the unorthodox wrist spinner might be: Always remember your strengths -- you will have more revolutions than a finger spinner, you will have more drift, you will have more turn, more flight, and best of all lots of players playing across the line or supposedly "with the spin". You can even forget the leg break... any variation of a top spinner will get you LBW, bowled, and leading edges. Sound familiar? -- that of course happens to be the construction Murali uses.

Imagine -- think of ideals that can create new fields of spin bowling.

The result?

Well for batsman anyway.

That's brilliant!

 

[Wrongwrongun]

Re: Wrong'un as stock delivery

Hey,

I'm sort of replying to your initial post from March -- I see the thread has evolved since then, but I thought I'd add my two cents worth about your wrong'un predicament.

Bowl to your strengths. As you rightly pointed out, the basic idea of bowling right arm over the wrist is the natural strength of spinning the ball away from the right hand batsman. It is however, just an idea -- even though it is as popular as it is. I would say you are in an exceptional, and exciting position where your strength is to bowl the wrong'un. So go and do it -- bowl to your strengths.

I will admit that this has already been said, so I'll add something extra. The next step is to come up with an idea, a construction, a craft, where you can imagine being a really good bowler, awesome international bowler if you like, while having your wrong'un as your number one delivery.

One construction, or a plan, or your new convention for the unorthodox wrist spinner might be: Always remember your strengths -- you will have more revolutions than a finger spinner, you will have more drift, you will have more turn, more flight, and best of all lots of players playing across the line or supposedly "with the spin". You can even forget the leg break... any variation of a top spinner will get you LBW, bowled, and leading edges. Sound familiar? -- that of course happens to be the construction Murali uses.

Imagine -- think of ideals that can create new fields of spin bowling.

The result?

Well for batsman anyway.

Hey thanks, just reading that post has given me confidence to not be scared of becoming a googly bowler if I have to! Perhaps following in the footsteps of Reggie Schwarz South Africa's role in the development of the googly

 

[ZacDuggan]

Re: Wrong'un as stock delivery

I have a mate with the same thing. Started off bowling left arm chinaman, tried to bowl a wrong un and now he can only get the chinaman working occasionally

 

[Wrongwrongun]

Re: Wrong'un as stock delivery

I have a mate with the same thing. Started off bowling left arm chinaman, tried to bowl a wrong un and now he can only get the chinaman working occasionally

If he has a pretty acccurate left-arm wrong'un I wouldn't be too worried since the ball is turning away from the batsman. I remember Kerry O'Keefe said that Brad Hogg should change his stock delivery from the chinaman to the wrong'un

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrong'un as stock delivery

If he has a pretty acccurate left-arm wrong'un I wouldn't be too worried since the ball is turning away from the batsman. I remember Kerry O'Keefe said that Brad Hogg should change his stock delivery from the chinaman to the wrong'un

With more R-Handed batsmen a lef arm wrong un is going to get you wickets, this is one situation where the Googly syndrome is potentially of benefit.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrong'un as stock delivery

on the other hand though, you look at Murali and ask yourself why he took so many wickets. it had nothing to do with his technique, and everything to do with the fact that he turned the ball as big as a leggie, but primarily with off breaks.

being an "off spinner", as a chinaman basically is, and being able to impart large amounts of spin should take just as many wickets as leg spin. how many club-level offies have you ever faced that can turn the ball more than a few inches? their strength is in control of line and length, not spin. whereas a chinaman bowler has strength in spin, which has much greater wicket potential.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrong'un as stock delivery

I'm crap against Offies, I had a game yesterday batting at No.10 came in faced a fast bowler bowling barrel straight at the stumps - easy life - block after block, leaving anything that was wide of the off-stump. On comes a spinner, didn't know whether he was a finger spinner or the genuine thing and for some reason assumed it was going to be a Leg - spinner. Ball came in looking pretty innocious I offered a straight bat - back foot defensive block as it was on the off-stump, but it turned into me and then I heard the clatter of stumps and bails, reckon it must have snuck between the bat and my legs, they always get me!!!!

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrong'un as stock delivery

if you dont know what the spinner is bowling then get forward to it for the first few balls. unless its REALLY short, dont sit back to it. if its short enough that youll have time to adjust your shot depending on what it does then the back foot is the easy option. but otherwise youve got to get a good stride in to the pitch of the ball and just defend it. even if you know which way its spinning youll still struggle if you play off the back foot to decent length deliveries.

if you get your pad behind the ball as a secondary defence then you cant get bowled, even if the bat misses. and if your team mate at umpire gives you LBW first ball to a new bowler on a sunday then youve been very hard done by!! so always play it safe.

personally, unless the ball is pitched up in that danger area where anything but a block will get you out, i try to smash a spinner first ball. if you can destroy their confidence early on then theyll struggle for rhythm. theres always a risk of getting out, but theres more of a risk for me if i play tentatively. i bat at 8+ so im not expected to hang around for long. youve experienced my batting style first hand Dave, unless its well outside off stump it gets swept when i tried to defend your bowling it caused me more problems.

 

[shrek]

Re: Wrong'un as stock delivery

I'm crap against Offies, I had a game yesterday batting at No.10 came in faced a fast bowler bowling barrel straight at the stumps - easy life - block after block, leaving anything that was wide of the off-stump. On comes a spinner, didn't know whether he was a finger spinner or the genuine thing and for some reason assumed it was going to be a Leg - spinner. Ball came in looking pretty innocious I offered a straight bat - back foot defensive block as it was on the off-stump, but it turned into me and then I heard the clatter of stumps and bails, reckon it must have snuck between the bat and my legs, they always get me!!!!

I've always been told that if a tailender is looking to defend, the ball turning in is the most difficult one to face, and if he is looking to smash things around, bowl something that leaves the batsman.(swing or spin).Usually because the tailenders end up missing the edge whereas a good batsman might end up edging it.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrong'un as stock delivery

Yeah that's what I'd be looking for from tail-enders too or indeed anyone - I wonder if there's any logic in in not having anyone behind the bowler e.g. mid on and mid off when you're bowling at better batsmen to try and persuade them to play straight?

 

[shrek]

Re: Wrong'un as stock delivery

Yeah that's what I'd be looking for from tail-enders too or indeed anyone - I wonder if there's any logic in in not having anyone behind the bowler e.g. mid on and mid off when you're bowling at better batsmen to try and persuade them to play straight?

When it comes to field placements - I disagree with the thought that dave and jim have expressed with regards to playing straight getting batsmen into trouble.

The good batsmen find it easier to adjust to spin (sideways adjustment) than to the bounce(vertical adjustment). If you want proof of that hold a bat in position for a drive and move it sideways as opposed to holding a bat in horizontal position for a pull and then try to lift it up/down.

Moreover, it is easier to read sideways movement than vertical movement- bounce or dip(even off the pitch). So if the ball bounces higher or lower than a bats' width a horizontal bat shot (sweep /pull/cut) will get you a wicket.

So, it always makes more sense to me to push the mid on, mid off straighter - and leave gaps - huge gaps in midwicket, cover regions - where to fetch runs, the batsmen will still play with the vertical bat, but batsmen will have to make a bigger adjustment if he misreads the spin initially.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrong'un as stock delivery

i like to have mid-off very short (about 18 yards from the bat) and leave mid-on open. good top order batsmen normally wont play sweep shots until they are very well set. if they are pulling or cutting then youre pitching the ball too short. if they play straight bat off the front foot and you pitch it full enough then they have zero margin for error. any kind of movement in flight and theyll struggle to get bat on ball. if they are weak legside (which they often are) then you can make them look incredibly stupid if the ball is turning well from outside their pads.

ive bowled to some very high quality batsmen in my last few matches, and all of them had a field day on short pitched deliveries. as soon as you get it up there under their nose though they were finding edges or missing completely. top order batsmen dont generally play spin at all well. they want pace on the ball so they can drive. encourage them to play straight and youll get them into trouble playing shots they shouldnt be.

when im batting against leg spin i play the sweep for fun. im a strong sweeper anyway, and il use it against pace as well. but provided you get to the pitch of the ball, you can take bounce completely out of the equation. a good player of spin wont be afraid of variable bounce, its middle order sluggers that want to smash you out of the ground that are vulnerable to that. they are equally vulnerable to deliveries that are well pitched up though, i reckon 70% of my wickets were clean bowled against middle order sluggers this season, just by beating them in flight.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrong'un as stock delivery

My current captain has an interesting approach to his bowling - he's a Leg Spinner and I think he turns the ball off the wicket quite well and much of the time he is looking to turn the ball a lot because he puts a lot of effort into it, but when it comes out wrong it comes out very wrong. He drags the ball down into the his 3rd of the wicket and gets the ball landing off of the wicket and looks like a shambles and you can see the batsmen almost laughing at how bad it sometimes is, but then........ He tosses the ball right up in a big looping arc looking ridiculously slow and they struggle and I can't fathom why, it looks like the kind of delivery that would normally be met with the ball hit for six before it even landed or a back foot shot hit where they'd be able to chose because of the speed. If seen him hit to all areas of the ground on ocassion, but then he'll get a wicket or two, it looks like the flight that does them - i'll have to watch more closely.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrong'un as stock delivery

My current captain has an interesting approach to his bowling - he's a Leg Spinner and I think he turns the ball off the wicket quite well and much of the time he is looking to turn the ball a lot because he puts a lot of effort into it, but when it comes out wrong it comes out very wrong. He drags the ball down into the his 3rd of the wicket and gets the ball landing off of the wicket and looks like a shambles and you can see the batsmen almost laughing at how bad it sometimes is, but then........ He tosses the ball right up in a big looping arc looking ridiculously slow and they struggle and I can't fathom why, it looks like the kind of delivery that would normally be met with the ball hit for six before it even landed or a back foot shot hit where they'd be able to chose because of the speed. If seen him hit to all areas of the ground on ocassion, but then he'll get a wicket or two, it looks like the flight that does them - i'll have to watch more closely.

thats probably more a case of batsmens egos.

theres a bowler i played with in my T20 league who is crazy slow. probably about 15-20mph slow, he tosses the ball up about 15 feet in the air with a bit of off spin on it. but you watch batsmen play 3 overs of forward defensive shots to it and not score any runs, and wonder how on earth hes so effective. there was another similar player at my old club, who was equally effective, and used to open the bowling for saturday league matches!

having then faced similar bowling myself ive figured out why. its not hard to cream them for 6, the bowling is so slow that you have forever to get yourself into position and execute the shot. it does however take some excellent co-ordination to time the ball correctly, and its hard to slog them. you have to put all of the power onto the ball with the shot since there is no pace to make use of.

the reason why batsmen dont do it every shot is because of their egos. they are petrified of getting bowled or stumped off a pie chucker, and the grief they will get from their team mates if they do. so theyll tend to play defensive shots and wait for a ball that lands conveniently for them to play a shot without leaving their crease. if they were to back themselves and play out of their crease and charge down the wicket then theyd be able to score easily. but theres always that risk of missing the ball, and the embarrassing walk back to the pavilion.

in the case of your captain, its the variation that catches batsmen out. if he bowled that slow every ball theyd adjust to it. its the fact that he bowls the super slow loopy delivery in amongst his regular speed deliveries. my T20 tactic when i get hit for a 6 is to bowl the next ball very full and much more flighted and slower. it took me 4 wickets this season, literally the next ball after the batsman hit his 6. 2 clean bowled, 2 caught deep.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrong'un as stock delivery

thats probably more a case of batsmens egos.

theres a bowler i played with in my T20 league who is crazy slow. probably about 15-20mph slow, he tosses the ball up about 15 feet in the air with a bit of off spin on it. but you watch batsmen play 3 overs of forward defensive shots to it and not score any runs, and wonder how on earth hes so effective. there was another similar player at my old club, who was equally effective, and used to open the bowling for saturday league matches!

having then faced similar bowling myself ive figured out why. its not hard to cream them for 6, the bowling is so slow that you have forever to get yourself into position and execute the shot. it does however take some excellent co-ordination to time the ball correctly, and its hard to slog them. you have to put all of the power onto the ball with the shot since there is no pace to make use of.

the reason why batsmen dont do it every shot is because of their egos. they are petrified of getting bowled or stumped off a pie chucker, and the grief they will get from their team mates if they do. so theyll tend to play defensive shots and wait for a ball that lands conveniently for them to play a shot without leaving their crease. if they were to back themselves and play out of their crease and charge down the wicket then theyd be able to score easily. but theres always that risk of missing the ball, and the embarrassing walk back to the pavilion.

in the case of your captain, its the variation that catches batsmen out. if he bowled that slow every ball theyd adjust to it. its the fact that he bowls the super slow loopy delivery in amongst his regular speed deliveries. my T20 tactic when i get hit for a 6 is to bowl the next ball very full and much more flighted and slower. it took me 4 wickets this season, literally the next ball after the batsman hit his 6. 2 clean bowled, 2 caught deep.

Yeah I think you're right about the ego thing, it's the same thing as good batsmen and little kids, they don't want to lose face with being dismissed by some little kid that bowls loopy at 25mph and they err towards caution.

Seen the same thing with old blokes that bowl straight, loopy, different lengths and speeds between 15 - 25mph, not sure whether it's clever or just sad!!!!?

I think to bowl like that takes some guts if you do it strategically. Yeah thinking about it he does vary the speed as well. I'd like to face him in a match situation and see what it's like, I've faced him in the nets and I tend to let all the wide balls go and don't chase them, in a match situations being a middle order batsman with the responsibility to make runs it becomes a different matter and then you face that psycological dilemma?

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrong'un as stock delivery

Yeah I think you're right about the ego thing, it's the same thing as good batsmen and little kids, they don't want to lose face with being dismissed by some little kid that bowls loopy at 25mph and they err towards caution.

Seen the same thing with old blokes that bowl straight, loopy, different lengths and speeds between 15 - 25mph, not sure whether it's clever or just sad!!!!?

I think to bowl like that takes some guts if you do it strategically. Yeah thinking about it he does vary the speed as well. I'd like to face him in a match situation and see what it's like, I've faced him in the nets and I tend to let all the wide balls go and don't chase them, in a match situations being a middle order batsman with the responsibility to make runs it becomes a different matter and then you face that psycological dilemma?

i just play deliveries on merit. if its there to be hit, il swing at it. i took a shot square in the nuts the other week against the worse bowler ive ever faced. he bowled about a 12 ball over, the first 4 balls didnt even land on the wicket. the first one that was legitimate was a full toss that i tried to smash and mistimed and it hit me square in the nuts. the next ball was a beamer! when he finally started landing the ball on the wicket i expect some batsmen would have been afraid to go after it for risk of getting out. i almost got stumped once but for the keeper not gathering it cleanly (which is saying something at 20mph!!). but ultimately if its there to be hit, youve just got to try and hit it. otherwise the pressure builds.

pressure on middle order batsmen is a killer, they always feel like theyve got to score runs every ball. whereas a solid opener will know that they dont need to, and that once they get settled theyll score freely enough for it not to matter (e.g. first 10 overs might go for 20 runs, but if they just stay in then the next 20 might go for 100). ive started playing like Jonathan Trott lately to try and force myself to build an innings. i even mark the pitch about 3 feet outside the crease lol.

i feel we have maybe strayed from the original topic a little though