Hopes or McDonald?
- Thread starter gbatman
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Re: Hopes or McDonald?
Hopes is the better bowler when compared to McDonald though, and McDonald is not a bigger hitter. Hopes is one of the bigger hitters I have seen personally, my favourite shot of his is at the MCG he hit a square cut for a flat six, never went much higher than double the height of the man at point. Hopes can bat too, just way down the order you don't get the chance and those 20s and 25s at 100 S/R are the important ones. Hopes is also a better fielder.
Hopes is Mr Fix It as described by Ricky Ponting and never really has put a foot wrong.
Hopes is the better bowler when compared to McDonald though, and McDonald is not a bigger hitter. Hopes is one of the bigger hitters I have seen personally, my favourite shot of his is at the MCG he hit a square cut for a flat six, never went much higher than double the height of the man at point. Hopes can bat too, just way down the order you don't get the chance and those 20s and 25s at 100 S/R are the important ones. Hopes is also a better fielder.
Hopes is Mr Fix It as described by Ricky Ponting and never really has put a foot wrong.
Sober Symonds
Member
Re: Hopes or McDonald?
Why is that?
I don't mind Hopes, so I don't have a preference. I think they're both very capable cricketers and give a good account of themselves in most situations without being out & out match-winners. Both deserve more time in national colours, I believe.
Why is that?
I don't mind Hopes, so I don't have a preference. I think they're both very capable cricketers and give a good account of themselves in most situations without being out & out match-winners. Both deserve more time in national colours, I believe.
LIONS then DAYLIGHT
Banned
Re: Hopes or McDonald?
I think they are both capable cricketers but McDonald's time in the test time was always going to be limited.
Hopes was our best ODI bowler this time last year and he is capable of batting anywhere in the order, with Shane Watson's emergence you would think Hopes will be slowly phased out of the system but I think he still has a valid role to play in our side.
I think they are both capable cricketers but McDonald's time in the test time was always going to be limited.
Hopes was our best ODI bowler this time last year and he is capable of batting anywhere in the order, with Shane Watson's emergence you would think Hopes will be slowly phased out of the system but I think he still has a valid role to play in our side.
eddiesmith
Active Member
Re: Hopes or McDonald?
Definately McDonald, a much better fielder, can field in slips as well which is a bonus in this current Aussie team, a more flexible batsman who has more experience at digging a team out of a hole and in recent times has shown he is suprisingly capable of scoring lots of quick runs at the death.
His bowling is extremely effective and is almost unplayable when on a pitch with some life in it and given the next world cup is in India where he would be sensational, its time they give him a run. I feel if he got a shot in NZ he would tear the Kiwis apart and take more wickets than Hopes could dream of
Definately McDonald, a much better fielder, can field in slips as well which is a bonus in this current Aussie team, a more flexible batsman who has more experience at digging a team out of a hole and in recent times has shown he is suprisingly capable of scoring lots of quick runs at the death.
His bowling is extremely effective and is almost unplayable when on a pitch with some life in it and given the next world cup is in India where he would be sensational, its time they give him a run. I feel if he got a shot in NZ he would tear the Kiwis apart and take more wickets than Hopes could dream of
Sober Symonds
Member
Re: Hopes or McDonald?
Yeah, I'm all for his inclusion to NZ. It won't happen though.
Get your seamers over there - it's paradise for them.
Yeah, I'm all for his inclusion to NZ. It won't happen though.
Get your seamers over there - it's paradise for them.
gbatman
Member
Re: Hopes or McDonald?
Well for me Hopes bowls 125-130km/h gun barrel straight stuff, but bowls a good length and line. McDonald bowls around the same speed but he swings the ball and moves it off the deck and is a competant bowler of the yorker as seen in the T20 Big Bash. McDonald can bowl at the death better than Hopes IMO.
Any one who says McDonald can't hit quick runs did not see much T20 big bash cricket this year, this is a much much improved area of his game.
McDonald was actually a crucial bowler in the tests over in south africa taking some very important wickets but is not a test player IMO.
Well for me Hopes bowls 125-130km/h gun barrel straight stuff, but bowls a good length and line. McDonald bowls around the same speed but he swings the ball and moves it off the deck and is a competant bowler of the yorker as seen in the T20 Big Bash. McDonald can bowl at the death better than Hopes IMO.
Any one who says McDonald can't hit quick runs did not see much T20 big bash cricket this year, this is a much much improved area of his game.
McDonald was actually a crucial bowler in the tests over in south africa taking some very important wickets but is not a test player IMO.
Re: Hopes or McDonald?
The thing is McDonald is doing this for Victoria... not Australia. Of course the only way to find out is by trialing him in the side, but I don't think he has done enough domestically to get selected anyway, I mean he's in the outers of the squad but not first picked at all.
Plus McDonald isn't a better fielder, yes slips are important but when you have White and Clarke/Ponting/Hussey in there depending on the situation there is no need for another one, you wouldn't have more than 2 slips in ODIs. I would put Hopes in the elite ranking of fielders in the Australian side, he's up there with Ponting, Clarke and Hussey as the best in the team. He did drop a catch in the last match, but it was a half chance and it only took him a split second to time the jump wrong and the team was nowhere near losing.
Plus this bowling spot isn't about taking wickets. Every wicket Hopes has gotten has been a bonus, but he never bowls to get wickets. Ponting puts him on to keep the runs to an absolute minimum and is why Hopes isn't bowled at the death very often, but rather through the middle overs or even as first change as he has many times, and keep runs below 3 an over, which he does almost every time.
Maybe McDonald can bowl at the death, but that's not what is needed. There are an endless list of Australian bowlers better than both of them at doing it, and most of them are in the squad anyway.
It's a matter of first in first serve. While Hopes is there, McDonald isn't. They are both very similar players, but Hopes has done nothing wrong and I don't think he is upstaged by Ronny in any way.
Hopes for the moment.
eddiesmith;386501 said:
The thing is McDonald is doing this for Victoria... not Australia. Of course the only way to find out is by trialing him in the side, but I don't think he has done enough domestically to get selected anyway, I mean he's in the outers of the squad but not first picked at all.
Plus McDonald isn't a better fielder, yes slips are important but when you have White and Clarke/Ponting/Hussey in there depending on the situation there is no need for another one, you wouldn't have more than 2 slips in ODIs. I would put Hopes in the elite ranking of fielders in the Australian side, he's up there with Ponting, Clarke and Hussey as the best in the team. He did drop a catch in the last match, but it was a half chance and it only took him a split second to time the jump wrong and the team was nowhere near losing.
Plus this bowling spot isn't about taking wickets. Every wicket Hopes has gotten has been a bonus, but he never bowls to get wickets. Ponting puts him on to keep the runs to an absolute minimum and is why Hopes isn't bowled at the death very often, but rather through the middle overs or even as first change as he has many times, and keep runs below 3 an over, which he does almost every time.
Maybe McDonald can bowl at the death, but that's not what is needed. There are an endless list of Australian bowlers better than both of them at doing it, and most of them are in the squad anyway.
It's a matter of first in first serve. While Hopes is there, McDonald isn't. They are both very similar players, but Hopes has done nothing wrong and I don't think he is upstaged by Ronny in any way.
Hopes for the moment.
eddiesmith
Active Member
Re: Hopes or McDonald?
You are right, he hasnt done enough domestically, it doesnt matter that his record is miles better than Hopes at State level or that his test stats batting at no8 are just as good as Hopes ODI stats, nope, Hopes is simply better because is a QLDer
One thing is for sure looking at their T20 stats, Hopes is greatly overrated and should be nowhere near the Aussie side and McDonald should be, I really do wonder where the Hopes is great at T20 myth came from
Boris;386533 said:
You are right, he hasnt done enough domestically, it doesnt matter that his record is miles better than Hopes at State level or that his test stats batting at no8 are just as good as Hopes ODI stats, nope, Hopes is simply better because is a QLDer
One thing is for sure looking at their T20 stats, Hopes is greatly overrated and should be nowhere near the Aussie side and McDonald should be, I really do wonder where the Hopes is great at T20 myth came from
gbatman
Member
Re: Hopes or McDonald?
Compare both players in the preliminary big bash final. who carries their bat and makes a less tha run a ball 44 in T20... TBH i would nearly consider Steve Smith ahead of Hopes. I'd love to know McDonalds stats over the last 2 season for all forms, he's a much improved player.
eddiesmith;386580 said:You are right, he hasnt done enough domestically, it doesnt matter that his record is miles better than Hopes at State level or that his test stats batting at no8 are just as good as Hopes ODI stats, nope, Hopes is simply better because is a QLDer
One thing is for sure looking at their T20 stats, Hopes is greatly overrated and should be nowhere near the Aussie side and McDonald should be, I really do wonder where the Hopes is great at T20 myth came from
Compare both players in the preliminary big bash final. who carries their bat and makes a less tha run a ball 44 in T20... TBH i would nearly consider Steve Smith ahead of Hopes. I'd love to know McDonalds stats over the last 2 season for all forms, he's a much improved player.
eddiesmith
Active Member
Re: Hopes or McDonald?
Around 45 with the bat, 25 with the ball in first class cricket
Around 40 with the bat, 30 with the ball in list A cricket
Around 25 with the bat, 25 with the ball in T20 cricket
Around 45 with the bat, 25 with the ball in first class cricket
Around 40 with the bat, 30 with the ball in list A cricket
Around 25 with the bat, 25 with the ball in T20 cricket
Re: Hopes or McDonald?
Hopes' domestic stats don't work for him because he was a pure bowler when he began his career coming into bat at 10. He then batted at 9 for an extended time with Hartley just above him and the couple of all rounders with Watson and Symonds just above that in a long batting line up. He didn't get the chance until the dropping of form and a century to push him up the order, where he has flourished. Averaged 45 with the bat in first class in his last fullish season. Hasn't been around for the one dayers as much lately due to international commitments.
Once again stats don't work for Hopes in any way in ODIs. Take a look at him bowling today against Pakistan. He bowls in the middle slow overs where the batsmen are looking to keep their wickets and just punch around singles. He then has to bowl to two set batsmen quite often as a partnership breaker. Doesn't always come off, quite often he ties them down for the guy at the other end. Therefore a bowling average of 33 is acceptable.
Same with batting. He comes in at 7 or 8. In ODIs a batting average of 20 is acceptable there. His strike rate of just a touch under 100 shows he has done his job there. He has a habit of getting out in the last over though, so not too many not outs. It shows he can actually bat when he gets pushed to open and scores 50s upwards on almost every occasion he has been up there.
He is one of the elite fielders in Australia and always does more than his part there.
T20 is the same, rarely gets more than a few runs at the end if he even bats. He bowls in one over spells scattered whenever economy is needed, nothing predictable and with no game plan intended.
Stats can't be used for Hopes when comparing him to someone that gets the chance to bat higher in a line up that McDonald can be placed higher up in. If he was playing for Queensland when Hopes started he would have been batting at 10 such was the strength of it. If he was playing for Australia he would be batting 7 or 8. If McDonald was bowling for Queensland when Hopes was he would struggle to get the ball with Kasper, Bichel and Nofke all battling for the ball themselves. Hopes got inconsistent overs if he got a game at all. If McDonald was bowling for Australia he would be bowling in the middle overs and as an economy rate depressor. Therefore same figures from a similar bowler.
Provide enough evidence that they would both perform to the same ability? It's just that Hopes is already there and has been for 60 games and has done very well, nothing to drop him for.
Hopes has single handedly won games for Queensland in the Big Bash. Can't pull figures from one game and say he is terrible. Hopes got an injury during that innings and was handing the strike over to batsmen at the other end that under what seemed to be the game plan were supposed to score while he anchored more so. They failed, he had to dig in and had trouble scoring.
Just have a look back at his 80 from 42 balls last season against the Vics. If you pull his figures from that game he's just about the best T20 player in Australia.
Research first.
eddiesmith;386580 said:You are right, he hasnt done enough domestically, it doesnt matter that his record is miles better than Hopes at State level or that his test stats batting at no8 are just as good as Hopes ODI stats, nope, Hopes is simply better because is a QLDer
One thing is for sure looking at their T20 stats, Hopes is greatly overrated and should be nowhere near the Aussie side and McDonald should be, I really do wonder where the Hopes is great at T20 myth came from
Hopes' domestic stats don't work for him because he was a pure bowler when he began his career coming into bat at 10. He then batted at 9 for an extended time with Hartley just above him and the couple of all rounders with Watson and Symonds just above that in a long batting line up. He didn't get the chance until the dropping of form and a century to push him up the order, where he has flourished. Averaged 45 with the bat in first class in his last fullish season. Hasn't been around for the one dayers as much lately due to international commitments.
Once again stats don't work for Hopes in any way in ODIs. Take a look at him bowling today against Pakistan. He bowls in the middle slow overs where the batsmen are looking to keep their wickets and just punch around singles. He then has to bowl to two set batsmen quite often as a partnership breaker. Doesn't always come off, quite often he ties them down for the guy at the other end. Therefore a bowling average of 33 is acceptable.
Same with batting. He comes in at 7 or 8. In ODIs a batting average of 20 is acceptable there. His strike rate of just a touch under 100 shows he has done his job there. He has a habit of getting out in the last over though, so not too many not outs. It shows he can actually bat when he gets pushed to open and scores 50s upwards on almost every occasion he has been up there.
He is one of the elite fielders in Australia and always does more than his part there.
T20 is the same, rarely gets more than a few runs at the end if he even bats. He bowls in one over spells scattered whenever economy is needed, nothing predictable and with no game plan intended.
Stats can't be used for Hopes when comparing him to someone that gets the chance to bat higher in a line up that McDonald can be placed higher up in. If he was playing for Queensland when Hopes started he would have been batting at 10 such was the strength of it. If he was playing for Australia he would be batting 7 or 8. If McDonald was bowling for Queensland when Hopes was he would struggle to get the ball with Kasper, Bichel and Nofke all battling for the ball themselves. Hopes got inconsistent overs if he got a game at all. If McDonald was bowling for Australia he would be bowling in the middle overs and as an economy rate depressor. Therefore same figures from a similar bowler.
Provide enough evidence that they would both perform to the same ability? It's just that Hopes is already there and has been for 60 games and has done very well, nothing to drop him for.
gbatman;386630 said:
Hopes has single handedly won games for Queensland in the Big Bash. Can't pull figures from one game and say he is terrible. Hopes got an injury during that innings and was handing the strike over to batsmen at the other end that under what seemed to be the game plan were supposed to score while he anchored more so. They failed, he had to dig in and had trouble scoring.
Just have a look back at his 80 from 42 balls last season against the Vics. If you pull his figures from that game he's just about the best T20 player in Australia.
Research first.
eddiesmith
Active Member
Re: Hopes or McDonald?
Very funny stuff indeed, you seem to act as if McDonald and Hopes are so different, yet they are alike, except for stats where McDonald is superior in every way
You point out his T20 batting stats and make excuses, except ignoring the fact that he mostly opens when playing for QLD in T20 cricket, so no he doesnt just have a few overs to hit at the end as McDonald does being in the strongest T20 batting lineup in the world, yet he still manages to hit more runs than Hopes who has a full 20 overs to bat
As for bowling, the 2 are no different to the way they are used yet McDonald manages to get more wickets because he bowls stump to stump, frustrates the batsmen into doing something stupid or simply beats them with good bowling, he keeps the pressure on during the middle overs unlike Hopes who they can keep their score ticking along when he is on, McDonald wouldnt have gone wicketless today
Boris;386704 said:
Very funny stuff indeed, you seem to act as if McDonald and Hopes are so different, yet they are alike, except for stats where McDonald is superior in every way
You point out his T20 batting stats and make excuses, except ignoring the fact that he mostly opens when playing for QLD in T20 cricket, so no he doesnt just have a few overs to hit at the end as McDonald does being in the strongest T20 batting lineup in the world, yet he still manages to hit more runs than Hopes who has a full 20 overs to bat
As for bowling, the 2 are no different to the way they are used yet McDonald manages to get more wickets because he bowls stump to stump, frustrates the batsmen into doing something stupid or simply beats them with good bowling, he keeps the pressure on during the middle overs unlike Hopes who they can keep their score ticking along when he is on, McDonald wouldnt have gone wicketless today
Re: Hopes or McDonald?
T20 isn't the argument here, McDonald is a better T20 batsman, but not the better bowler I believe.
You just said that McDonald would get more wickets. I don't see how. Hopes bowls from stump to stump - just like McDonald - only with swing, and good swing at times too. Hopes has been a leading wicket taker in a side with McGrath, Lee and Bracken. He is a bloody good bowler and has always made his part. He has one mediocre series and then is out with injury, and you jump in and say he is a poor bowler that can be bettered by someone who shouldn't be in the squad.
He has been persisted with because he has been one of the best players of the past couple of years. He has been labeled "Mr Fix it" amongst the team for a reason. It would have to take someone obsessed in looking at stats and not the actual game to not see how many times he has pulled Australia out of a hollow. There are better batsmen and bowlers around the country, but no better at doing a bit of everything than James Hopes.
Stop pulling out a few particular games and saying he is useless because he scored low or got smashed around the park.
Using that philosophy we might as well say White is a terrible cricketer. He has a batting average of just over 30, gave up bowling because it was terrible and his last three scores were very low and slow. Oh, he must be the worst player of the past year to step into the Australian cricket side. Same applies for him.
eddiesmith;386707 said:Very funny stuff indeed, you seem to act as if McDonald and Hopes are so different, yet they are alike, except for stats where McDonald is superior in every way
You point out his T20 batting stats and make excuses, except ignoring the fact that he mostly opens when playing for QLD in T20 cricket, so no he doesnt just have a few overs to hit at the end as McDonald does being in the strongest T20 batting lineup in the world, yet he still manages to hit more runs than Hopes who has a full 20 overs to bat
As for bowling, the 2 are no different to the way they are used yet McDonald manages to get more wickets because he bowls stump to stump, frustrates the batsmen into doing something stupid or simply beats them with good bowling, he keeps the pressure on during the middle overs unlike Hopes who they can keep their score ticking along when he is on, McDonald wouldnt have gone wicketless today
T20 isn't the argument here, McDonald is a better T20 batsman, but not the better bowler I believe.
You just said that McDonald would get more wickets. I don't see how. Hopes bowls from stump to stump - just like McDonald - only with swing, and good swing at times too. Hopes has been a leading wicket taker in a side with McGrath, Lee and Bracken. He is a bloody good bowler and has always made his part. He has one mediocre series and then is out with injury, and you jump in and say he is a poor bowler that can be bettered by someone who shouldn't be in the squad.
He has been persisted with because he has been one of the best players of the past couple of years. He has been labeled "Mr Fix it" amongst the team for a reason. It would have to take someone obsessed in looking at stats and not the actual game to not see how many times he has pulled Australia out of a hollow. There are better batsmen and bowlers around the country, but no better at doing a bit of everything than James Hopes.
Stop pulling out a few particular games and saying he is useless because he scored low or got smashed around the park.
Using that philosophy we might as well say White is a terrible cricketer. He has a batting average of just over 30, gave up bowling because it was terrible and his last three scores were very low and slow. Oh, he must be the worst player of the past year to step into the Australian cricket side. Same applies for him.
eddiesmith
Active Member
Re: Hopes or McDonald?
44 very low? 28 off 31 very low and slow? Hmm, thats an interesting description, under that idea then every ODI innings of Hopes has been very very very low
Hopes isnt in Australias best side anymore, after next years world cup they will probably cast him aside for good as he wont be around for the world cup back home, McDonald will be around most likely in 5 years time. Hopes may be Australias Mr Fix it, but McDonald could do the job better
When Hopes is remembered I will remember him as a player who was worse than Ian Harvey
44 very low? 28 off 31 very low and slow? Hmm, thats an interesting description, under that idea then every ODI innings of Hopes has been very very very low
Hopes isnt in Australias best side anymore, after next years world cup they will probably cast him aside for good as he wont be around for the world cup back home, McDonald will be around most likely in 5 years time. Hopes may be Australias Mr Fix it, but McDonald could do the job better
When Hopes is remembered I will remember him as a player who was worse than Ian Harvey
LIONS then DAYLIGHT
Banned
Re: Hopes or McDonald?
you may or may not be right you say?
That is up there with that Donald Rumsfield line a few years ago when he said that he was "prett sure Bin Laden was either dead or alive".
Hopes is IMO a better bowler then McDonald and probably equal with the bat.
you may or may not be right you say?
That is up there with that Donald Rumsfield line a few years ago when he said that he was "prett sure Bin Laden was either dead or alive".
Hopes is IMO a better bowler then McDonald and probably equal with the bat.