Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

Bruno.V

New Member
Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

The moronic decision making process that lead to Michael Klinger moving to South Australia was bad enough but I had not completely lost faith in Victoria. The latest development means that (even though I am a parochial Victorian) I renounce all allegiance to the Bushrangers. They might as well be from another state anyway.

Adam Crosthwaite was touted as a potential Australian test player from a young age. The reviews tell us that he is a glove-man of unparalleled skill (in Australia anyway) but that his bating was a little weak to justify the selection early predictions alluded to.

The obvious way to look at the situation is to say that Wade is a better keeper, and like Klinger, Crosthwaite has not performed at a level to justify his selection. The result is that they were not selected and wanted to leave. Make no mistake, this is a completely naive view. Both players have been forced out by the same misguided selection policies that have left Victoria without a consistent representative at test level, other than Shane Warne, for the best part of 20 years. Unlike NSW, and the Australian side, Victoria obviously places no value in selecting a gifted player and then heaping responsibility on him, as a show of faith, with the aim of getting the best out of him.

The Bushrangers leave their young players out in the (relative) cold playing Victorian Premier league regardless of their form and then pick the same players based on the form of seasons past. The reality is that the Shield is first and foremost about getting test players; this is clear because supporters and those officially involved constantly bitch about not having players selected in the side. Ultimately Shield victories should be the by product of blooding our gifted young cricketers and having them gain experience alongside hardened state veterans. There is nothing innovative about the last statement (and it is certainly obvious - some would argue that this is what happens).

Victoria has a history of undermining young Victoria cricketers. The examples are the recruiting of Gerard Denton, Damien Wright, (most disgustingly) Chris Rogers, and (for different reasons) Matthew Wade.

Matthew Innes and Allan Wise are both proven Victorians at State level. Wise was an integral part of the bowling group during the season that Victoria won its first shield of this decade, it was his break out year. He has since been crippled with injuries but he has shown enough to be given opportunities by South Australia. Matthew Innes was at a level high enough to tear apart a touring West Indian team (after years of high level cricket as a swing bowler) prompting Shane Warne to call for his inclusion in the test side. He was betrayed at the selection table and ultimately forced out of Victoria as he was not being selected. Western Australia benefited from his presence until his retirement.

In recent years Denton and Wright have been brought across bass straight as (albeit talented) wash-ups whose chances of being selected for Australia were, and remain, not existent. We are then fed rubbish about the need to add to the bowling depth and what a good opportunity it is for Victoria to have proven state cricketers at its disposal. I am not suggesting that the signing of these two players is directly related to the decisions of Wise and Innes, the years don't match up. However, they don’t need to, Victoria has a history of signing players from other states while at the same time not showing any faith in players its own youth
academies and state competition nurtured.

The signing of Rogers and the subsequent departure of Klinger is the most disgusting example. Kilnger did not leave Victoria until Rogers was signed. The writing was on the wall and Klinger left and had a break out year at South Australia. I had an argument with Nick Jewell on SEN about this and he told me that Klinger wanted to leave. In the middle of explaining that the decision to leave was not important, and that the reasons for the decision were I was cut off because I was correct. Klinger is a player that has a history of being made to feel unwanted (Victoria declared with Klinger on 99 and was denied a maiden first class century for years - and the game was of limited importance). I personally don't place too much weight on the declaration but it does build a picture.

The Klinger issue also highlights the absolute lack of forward thinking in Victorian selection (as well as the betrayal of its own kind).
Irrespective of Hayden's sudden demise against South Africa, everyone in Australia knew that we would be on the market for another opener. Remember that Langer and Hayden have been on the wrong side of 33 for years. Surely, two years ago the time had come to sit Klinger sown and explain that he was getting his opportunity (unlike Brade Hodge - who has been very unlucky) and that he was going to be in the right place at the right time. He should have been given a whole season to play. Victoria being Victoria, Klinger was not selected and a year later a 31.5 year old Rogers is signed and Klinger leaves. Klinger has shown that he has the ability, he dominated the shield year. Had he put together similar numbers last year (there is no logical reason why he could not have) and then started the last season like he did, Phil Hughes would have been irrelevant. I am at work and cannot confirm it, but I am sure that he was the captain of a world cup winnign Australian under 19 side that featured Michael Clarke. How can one player have gone so far and another have stalled so much in the exact period of time. I will laugh at anyone who thinks that Clarke is a special player whose selection for Australia could be justified. Clarke is a flat track bully who is rarely exposed because the standard of world cricket has been so terrible. Remember that Clarke has been protected at 5 and 6 and, before the South Africa series,
made centuries when Australia's end score was 520 (ask Robbert Craddock). The point of this is not to bag Clarke, I will bag that looser another time, the point is to show the importance in nurturing your own. It is the same principle as bringing up identical twins in different environments to prove that their traits are socially learnt rather than biologically determined. Nurturing youth is
something that NSW is brilliant at and somethign Victoria is appauling at. The conspirators will argue along the lines of the late David Hooks' 'every baggy blue comes with a baggy green' but the reality is that Hooks was the one coach of Victoria who showed faith in an overwhelmingly local list. Shippherd brings in his mercenaries to win shield games while NSW has taken advantage of the changing of the guard in the test side.

Essentially, we deserve as many test players as we have had.

Matthew Wade is a weaker argument as he is a young player. He is also a very realistic chance of playing for Australia. However, Wade is not a Victorian and has taken the opportunity of a superior keeper who is insignificantly older. critics may ask why Crosthwaite hasn't made runs. I would ask them how he is supposed to make runs. Batting between 6-9 in 2020 and One Day cricket is not exactly giving him an opportunity to mount a serious case for Shield selection. If you think otherwise you don't know cricket. WA promoted Ronchi to the top of the order the moment the saw his potential. Ronchi has played One Day cricket and is easily ahead of Crosthwaite. I won't listen to any argument that Crosthwaite's batting is not up to scratch as he has never been given the opportunity. It is rediculous to suggest that he can't do it until he gets a season at it.

The danger is that Blizzard and Finch are going to suffer the same fate. They only ever play 2020 cricket and the occasional one day match. They both had prolific Premier League seasons about two seasons ago but weren't rewarded. They are now a very long way behind similar aged players in different stated.

Hopefully Adam wins the contract at NSW and goes on to be Australia's next keeper (it is still possible). It would be the sweetest selection of a Victorian that I could remember.
 
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

i always knew that the bushrangers screw around a little with players and games and stuff... but not that much.

i myself have little interest in those southerners except when planning on how to thrash them, but i can relate a few of those things to the bulls, like losing quite a few players, and very nearly many more (including greats such as hayden, love and bichel) to simple contract arrangments. that is why the bulls are down 4 players, and two to retirement, simply because the contracts are too restricting or downright stupid, or by providing only small amounts of oportunity to young players.

those things you have listed are downright stupid on the bushrangers behalf.

do you or anyone else have any suggestions as to how to fix them?
 
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

the problem of recruiting for shield wins is as old as cricket. Bradman to SA in the 30's is a good example. Greg Chappell and Allan Border to Queensland in the 70's.
i think that our winning Australian team has perverted a development culture that developed in the 80's into a win at all costs culture now. Dennis Lillee was complaining in the paper last year that no local lads were proving themselves in first grade; but then you look at the club rosters and every second bowler is a recruit from the East (or so it seems). why should a local bust a gut twice as hard as a t'othersider when the selection panel is going to sit down and say that the other guy has shown his passion by moving states. i work with a grade cricketer and he was telling me he hadn't seen a good pitch in years- they're all laid to get runs and add to the excitement in the game- but most crowds were still in the low hundreds- if that. it might be good preparation for world class cricket but it hardly allows a bowler to show his worth. an experienced bowler coming into the competition is always going to look better than a local who has always played in the local competition.
i have always thought that the simplest solution was to make it that you can only play for the state you lived in at 18 years- and any transfer had to involve a residency requirement of, say, two seasons. this way the player can still go to England or wherever but also has to put in the hard yards to prove their commitment to the new state. it also means that the state associations will have to go back and look at actually developing the local talent. it might be unfair to a player who feels they are being victimised; but how victimised is he going to feel if he can't just chuck a hissy and move to another state?
 
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

yeah, i dont want the state games turning into a similar sort of thing to the IPL, or like english soccer where players are moved from team to team just for money. i would rather the players show some sort of patriotism for their state. like with shane watson, he has just walked away from queensland to join NSW, because he 'feels' more at home there. fair enough, now he should live in that state, be a recognised new south welshman in more ways then just cricket and play his fullest and commit to bringing his side home. i dont want players playing only for money, although thats the way it seems to be going.
the states have to notice this as well. since i only really know the bulls i will use them as an example. they have a policy that when a player is older and experienced they are only given contracts that last a maximum of one year, so that way if the selectors feel they are getting just a touch old then they are straight away not contracted. thats no way to treat your finest players who have done seasons of work for not only the state that they play for, but the state that they have lived since they were kids. like martin love was almost not given a contract for being injured, but he worked his way through it and just convinced them to contract him. if he wasnt that would have surely been the end of his state career. he was a very, very fine cricketer, holding many a record for the club and penetrating the test team when it was near impossible to do so because of the quality of the team, even though he was dropped after scoring a century due to another player coming back from injury. then he had to perform better then he had in years past in his older age just to keep his contract. thats not fair on one of our best players ever just be be pushed around like that. the same thing happened to andy bichel and just recently ash nofke. except nofke has decided that that contracting rule was too restricting as he was barely allowed to play any ODers and moved to western australia. he is a good friend of mine too, we live in the same area and i have played with him before and he, as well as a few others, absolutely hate the contracting methods of this wonderful state.

nurturing youth is very important in state sides, but to do so you do need the experienced to stick around and help them. NSW came last on the ladder last year because the didnt have an experienced player. remember that going from grade to state is a big jump, at grade for example bowlers are bowling 110-130 kph, whereas as soon as you step up to state you could be facing shaun tait at 150+ kph. in those cases you would need someone experienced to help them through. that is what watson is doing next year, almost captaining the NSW young players so that they can get a better result this season coming. i beleive that experienced players are the greatest asset to a team and should not be thrown away. although the domestic games are there for development towards the international team, you have to remember that they are playing for a great prize though, so it is important that young players are brought through in a competitive world, having to make their own way to the top through performances that they put together themselves in order to help their team win. cricket is a team sport and personal performances shouldnt be judged upon, but rather their performance in comparison to the sides performance. if klinger made that 99 before they declared in a situation where the side was already 400 runs ahead, then he shouldnt be worried at all, he contributed to a huge lead. if they declared where he scored a third of the runs for the team then he should be frustrated at that not letting him go on to get one more run.

im not sure if what i rambled about there has any relevance to this argument, im finding it a little hard to find a point. whats you major issue in synopsis?

and hattrick would be good with this sort of stuff. if you read this hattrick, post!
 
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

Guys I read with interest all the information about the state issues. One has to realise that one the game has become professional so comparing it to the 80's is a bit difficult. The fact is that the win at all cost attitude has been born due to the fact that these states need results for sponsorship.

The reality is that players do not play for the badge any more it is about where my salary is the best, where my partner is and loyalty is unfortunately always the last thing on everyone's mind.

I think the problem is a worldwide issue and in South Africa we have it... as well. The problem is that the national boards do not fund the states/franchises. Consider this.. we have 11 first class unions a 5 franchises. Yes we have 2 first class competitions and the franchise partners have been at loggerheads since its inception.

The problem is multi facetted and a concern to cricket professionals.The fact is that people and money are involved and certain players will get the breaks and others unfortunately not.
 
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

Declaring in a match of little importance is sign .. get in your car and look for another state..
 
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

It seems to me that the need to win is based more in the egos of officials (who were part of the intense stae rivalry of the 70s and 80s) than a need to gain sponsorship.

South Australia, by going with its group of talented (though unprepared) local youngsters, virtually signed it own death warrant. I would need to see something official before I thought it was to do with sponsorship.
 
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

Funny stuff, oh and Klinger was leaving before Rogers was signed
 
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

i have to confess to being more than a little parochial. i want the WA side to be full of Western Australians. i don't see that the current recruitment policies are doing any better than pursuing local talent.
but it also irks me that the state selectors and officials keep complaining about the local talent not stepping up or the local kids choosing AFL or Soccer over cricket. then they give the local players the shaft by recruiting interstate.
a few years back you could actually put together a fairly decent WA side from all the WA players playing interstate.
 
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

You've obviously thought long & hard about this, V.Bruno, and your argument must have some foundation. Maybe it has had some bearing on the number of national rep's from Victoria. Maybe plain old results does also. And luck. Still, I don't think Victoria are the only team to recruit from other states or to lose players seeking opportunities elsewhere.

It hurts when locally-produced youngsters leave, I agree. But a supporter from anywhere in the country will tell you of their despair at losing a Katich, a Noffke, a Lehmann, a Miller, a Gilchrist ... All have their reasons, and it is usually somewhere between getting a decent run at Shield level, and at breaking into national colours.

Whilst I also agree young talent should be perservered with, you can't expect everyone to keep being given "a go" when results are not coming through in a demanding environment. At a similar time, the likes of Klinger, Peake, Dart, Hodge, etc. were tried, discarded and tried again, and perhaps all should have been persisted with even further. In the meantime, the state was failing to provide Test prospect or win titles. When do you cut your losses and make a call on someone?

I know you said you were going to dismiss any talk of Crosthwaite's batting shortcomings, but an average of 21 - regardless of what position you bat - isn't going to stack up in the cut-throat that is Cricket Australia.
 
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

I was just being emphatic re not listening to criticism of Crosthwaite's batting. Of course his record is utterly inadequate, there is no doubt about it. My argument is that Crosthwaite has shown glimpses at both 2020 and One Day cricket that suggest that he could have been promoted to open an innings. Remember that ultimately that is what an Australian keeper will be required to do following on from Gilchrist, Haddin and Ronchi (who, as I see it was promoted the moment that he showed that he had something).

I don't begrudge guys like Rogers, Noffke, Katich, Denton and Wright changing states (and chasing $s if that is what they are doing). I begrudge the states for undercutting their own youth systems when they chase these players. As far as I see it, WA and Victoria are the worst at it. South Australia and Tasmania both had a go at blooding young natives and in some cases it worked, and in some cases it hasn't. New South Walse is by far the standout and, as much as it pains me to say it, deserve to dominate the spots in the national side because they give their young players opportunities the moment they think they are capable of it. It simply cannot be the water, young guys need faith to be shown in them (particularly batsmen) because the pressure in the middle will suffocate them.

To the poster that says Klinger was gone before Rogers was anounced I would ask you not to be naive about it. Was there something inherent in Klinger's nature that meant he wanted to go to South Australia, of course there wasn't. Someone with his pedigree would see what Clarke has made of himself in the same time frame and ask himself why he got screwed, and he would pack up and leave because he knows that time is running out. Rogers' contract with WA was being questioned well before Klinger left.

We have done the same thing to the best 'keeper' in the land. We are doing it to the three most talented young batsmen in the state. In 10 years time when there is still only one player in the test side some dip**** official of the Bushrangers will come out and have a cry about NSW favouritism for Australian selection. I will be there, I will re-post this post in this forum and the cycle will continue because cricket is a boys club and nothing ever changes.
 
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

dont forget queenland when it comes to bringing through youngsters. i have followed them avidly and read right back in their history, as well as know a couple of the guys that play for the bulls (or in nofkes case now, the warriors). queensland doesnt offer the greatest amounts of money for their contracts, meaning that big guns searching for dollars arent tempted to switch from their state to take up a spot in queensland and stop a young player coming through. as much as it annoys me, the way they contract their older players is a good system as well. they only contract the older players with only a couple of years left for a maximum 1 year period, and although it is not fair on experienced greats (like martin love for example), but it does mean as soon as they stop performing and they think there is a young player better, they terminate the contract as soon as possible and drop them from the side. not very fair, i know, and it annoys me as that is what caused nofke to change states as they werent contracting him for long enough and not for limited overs because they wanted to bring through youngesters for the big bash and the ford ranger cup and leave pretty much everyone else out. but at the same time they arent picking whole teams of youngsters and leave the experienced players (like playing the great bichel until he was 60 something years old :p) so that the side can win a few games and still remain in contention. that is how the bulls came first in the ford ranger cup last year, and second in the SS, while playing 9 debutants throughout the season and having a side filled with players with less then 10 games experience, like laughlin for example, and he was outstanding in the finals. but then they still have players like smith, watson, love, perren (at the start of the season) and hartley to steady the ships if the youngsters fail. unlike at NSW where they played a whole team of young players together with barely any experience and wonder why they came dead last on the ladder.
 
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

Great for Siddle but to be honest I don't get it.

In hindsight I understand why he is playing for Australia, but at the time he went from zero to hero in the space of two Shield games.

Two players in 20 years is a pretty good dtrike rate.
 
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

Bruno.V;355830 said:
To the poster that says Klinger was gone before Rogers was anounced I would ask you not to be naive about it. Was there something inherent in Klinger's nature that meant he wanted to go to South Australia, of course there wasn't. Someone with his pedigree would see what Clarke has made of himself in the same time frame and ask himself why he got screwed, and he would pack up and leave because he knows that time is running out. Rogers' contract with WA was being questioned well before Klinger left.

I was told during the season he was heading to SA, there is probably some overlap with the Rogers move as they may not have wanted Klinger if Rogers went to SA instead, but he left because he was crap. He didnt deserve a game and SA would happily give him one, sure he had a great season but as I pointed out a few times, how did it help SA? Did they suddenly start winning and becoming a contender? No.

Klinger is perfect for SA, he is not good enough for Victoria nor Australia, he is slow and with no pressure on SA and a draw as good as a win there he can play his natural game. Klinger got alot more chances than he deserved and he never made the most of it, just because he went to the no1 batting pitch in Australia and produced plenty of runs means shit, he didnt help them win games
 
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

Boris;355835 said:
dont forget queenland when it comes to bringing through youngsters. i have followed them avidly and read right back in their history, as well as know a couple of the guys that play for the bulls (or in nofkes case now, the warriors).

queensland are the best example of the pitfalls of buying talent. from the early 70's (to my knowledge) through to the mid 90's Queensland were forever buying players from other states in order to try and win a Shield. it wasn't until the year after the last (and probably greatest; Alan Border) of these retired that they actually won a Shield, using players that they had developed themselves.
 
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

eddiesmith;355855 said:
Klinger is perfect for SA, he is not good enough for Victoria nor Australia, he is slow and with no pressure on SA and a draw as good as a win there he can play his natural game. Klinger got alot more chances than he deserved and he never made the most of it, just because he went to the no1 batting pitch in Australia and produced plenty of runs means shit, he didnt help them win games

So by extension the role that Katich plays at the top of the order for Australia is more of a liability?

One for the historians:

"He [Michael Klinger] was Victoria’s leading run-scorer in the Ford Ranger Cup in 2006-07"*

I dont think you can do that as an opener unless you can score.



*Source
 
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

bren122;355928 said:
queensland are the best example of the pitfalls of buying talent. from the early 70's (to my knowledge) through to the mid 90's Queensland were forever buying players from other states in order to try and win a Shield. it wasn't until the year after the last (and probably greatest; Alan Border) of these retired that they actually won a Shield, using players that they had developed themselves.

and as such have developed a new way of using our own players instead of everyone else and are now a much better team. also in the last few years there have been minimal player trading within the team, until this off season where it seems half the team has run away for one reason or another (like mitch going to the warriors to be with his girlfriend in perth).
 
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.

Bruno.V;355945 said:
So by extension the role that Katich plays at the top of the order for Australia is more of a liability?

One for the historians:



I dont think you can do that as an opener unless you can score.



*Source
Katich is quicker than Klinger could ever dream of being and he has a quick opener at the other end, but you couldnt put Katich and Klinger together in the same team

Jewell is a better batsman than Klinger

As for the one day season, yeah I remember that year, took 50 overs to make a century. The following year they finally start to dominate when Klinger was out of the side, even made our first 300 score but unfortunately made the mistake of recalling him for the final and we lost, what a suprise!
 
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