eddiesmith
Active Member
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.
Should see Finch opening tomorrow, hopefully
Should see Finch opening tomorrow, hopefully
Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.
- Thread starter Bruno.V
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a for effort
Active Member
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.
In reality Finch should have been opening from the get-go, as that's where he has been making his bucketload of runs for Geelong. I'm not sold on Quiney at all, he definitely appears the weakest link out of a top 7 of himself, Rogers, Hodge, White, Hussey, McDonald and Finch. It's a tough ask expecting someone to step up a grade, and at the same time occupy a position in the batting order which he is unused to, as has been asked of Finch. Hopefully the removal of Brad 'Good Bloke' Hodge gives him the chance to shine at the top of the order.
In reality Finch should have been opening from the get-go, as that's where he has been making his bucketload of runs for Geelong. I'm not sold on Quiney at all, he definitely appears the weakest link out of a top 7 of himself, Rogers, Hodge, White, Hussey, McDonald and Finch. It's a tough ask expecting someone to step up a grade, and at the same time occupy a position in the batting order which he is unused to, as has been asked of Finch. Hopefully the removal of Brad 'Good Bloke' Hodge gives him the chance to shine at the top of the order.
eddiesmith
Active Member
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.
It happens at all levels that a player is expected to bat lower down and earn a higher spot, in one way they probably see it as easing them into it
As for Quiney, I have always maintained he is far more suited to a lower position in the 50 over format, good for T20 opening to just swing the bat but his best innings from my memory in the 50 over form was down the order, Victoria was struggling with the run rate and it was early days of the batting powerplay, they took it and he went ballistic, smashed the NSW attack all over the MCG and we cruised to the win
I just feel he would be better off with the ball not moving around as much and less attacking fields
It happens at all levels that a player is expected to bat lower down and earn a higher spot, in one way they probably see it as easing them into it
As for Quiney, I have always maintained he is far more suited to a lower position in the 50 over format, good for T20 opening to just swing the bat but his best innings from my memory in the 50 over form was down the order, Victoria was struggling with the run rate and it was early days of the batting powerplay, they took it and he went ballistic, smashed the NSW attack all over the MCG and we cruised to the win
I just feel he would be better off with the ball not moving around as much and less attacking fields
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.
So yeah, Klinger just isn't up to it. State player of the year in the two years since being given a go.
To those who insisted that he wasn't any good: what crap are you going to come up with now to justify the handling of Klinger's career?
Victoria has been blessed by two things:
1. it turns out that Cam White can actually bat; and
2. the fast bowlers continue to get injured forcing the Bushrangers to play guys like McKay, Hastings and Pattinson. If it wasn't for the injuries I would hate to think of the lineup.
So yeah, Klinger just isn't up to it. State player of the year in the two years since being given a go.
To those who insisted that he wasn't any good: what crap are you going to come up with now to justify the handling of Klinger's career?
Victoria has been blessed by two things:
1. it turns out that Cam White can actually bat; and
2. the fast bowlers continue to get injured forcing the Bushrangers to play guys like McKay, Hastings and Pattinson. If it wasn't for the injuries I would hate to think of the lineup.
eddiesmith
Active Member
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.
Yeah he has really turned South Australia around! They are still the worst team in the country, good on him smashing centuries on the Adelaide Oval every week, didnt fit into Victorias plans because he isnt a match winner.
I am much happier with Chris Rogers opening the batting as he actually has the talent to play at the top level, just other factors holding him back, you wont see Klinger playing for Australia unless they cop an injury crisis in the batting ranks even worse than the bowlers are currently facing
Plus if Klinger was still around we might not be seeing Aaron Finch getting the go he deserves
Yeah he has really turned South Australia around! They are still the worst team in the country, good on him smashing centuries on the Adelaide Oval every week, didnt fit into Victorias plans because he isnt a match winner.
I am much happier with Chris Rogers opening the batting as he actually has the talent to play at the top level, just other factors holding him back, you wont see Klinger playing for Australia unless they cop an injury crisis in the batting ranks even worse than the bowlers are currently facing
Plus if Klinger was still around we might not be seeing Aaron Finch getting the go he deserves
Sober Symonds
Member
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.
Klinger is a class batsman, and all credit to him for the success he is having. The fact is though, that he had been given a decent run and was not producing the sort of runs they would want for the investment that was made. They grew impatient, and it may be debated he proved them wrong.
But plenty of sportsmen in different codes kick on after making a change. You can't say they would have improved that much if they had stayed where they were. His position in the team, teammates, the home venue he enjoys ... these could all contribute to Klinger's rebirth as a cricketer.
I'm no Vic Cricket spokesman, in fact I've been quite critical of them in the past. But you have to appreciate we can only work with what we have with regard to potential stars. Our record of turning out pace bowlers is very good, and presently recognised by good judges. The fact that injuries have opened the door for others just shows the depth we have - no-one's at fault there. They don't just keep all the old boys. The likes of Wise have been squeezed out, for example, and plenty more before him.
All states recycle other players. It's certainly not exclusive to Victoria. Probably more of ours get picked up elsewhere, which says a couple of things.
Klinger is a class batsman, and all credit to him for the success he is having. The fact is though, that he had been given a decent run and was not producing the sort of runs they would want for the investment that was made. They grew impatient, and it may be debated he proved them wrong.
But plenty of sportsmen in different codes kick on after making a change. You can't say they would have improved that much if they had stayed where they were. His position in the team, teammates, the home venue he enjoys ... these could all contribute to Klinger's rebirth as a cricketer.
I'm no Vic Cricket spokesman, in fact I've been quite critical of them in the past. But you have to appreciate we can only work with what we have with regard to potential stars. Our record of turning out pace bowlers is very good, and presently recognised by good judges. The fact that injuries have opened the door for others just shows the depth we have - no-one's at fault there. They don't just keep all the old boys. The likes of Wise have been squeezed out, for example, and plenty more before him.
All states recycle other players. It's certainly not exclusive to Victoria. Probably more of ours get picked up elsewhere, which says a couple of things.
Sober Symonds
Member
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.
Can anyone tell me why Rogers batted at 8 or whatever in the last game?
eddiesmith;388720 said:
Can anyone tell me why Rogers batted at 8 or whatever in the last game?
Sober Symonds
Member
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.
... and he made 80! Was he crook again in the 2nd dig???
... and he made 80! Was he crook again in the 2nd dig???
a for effort
Active Member
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.
This is a bad post. For a supporter of a team who wins more than their fair share of trophies, you sure sound bitter about something.
eddiesmith;388720 said:
This is a bad post. For a supporter of a team who wins more than their fair share of trophies, you sure sound bitter about something.
eddiesmith
Active Member
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.
He was in hospital on day 1, dropped a sitter on day 3, not sure if he fielded at all on day 4 though, but they probably just rested him in the 2nd innings whilst in the 1st he was needed
I am justannoyed at how often the Klinger thing comes up, he is making runs for SA, good on him, he had his fair share of chances for Victoria and failed, why cant everyone get over it?
Fact is when a player has 63 innings for 2 centuries and an average of 26, the state isnt about to keep sticking with them forever
People claim he never got enough chances, by the end of this season he will still have only played half the amount of games for SA as he did for Victoria, yet already scored 1000 more runs than he ever did for Victoria, yet its Victorias fault?
We should send Lloyd Mash to SA next year, he will probably make 1000 runs a year as he has the same record and amount of chances as Klinger, doesnt mean they would ever come good playing for a good side
Sober Symonds;388730 said:
Sober Symonds;388735 said:
He was in hospital on day 1, dropped a sitter on day 3, not sure if he fielded at all on day 4 though, but they probably just rested him in the 2nd innings whilst in the 1st he was needed
a for effort;388737 said:
I am justannoyed at how often the Klinger thing comes up, he is making runs for SA, good on him, he had his fair share of chances for Victoria and failed, why cant everyone get over it?
Fact is when a player has 63 innings for 2 centuries and an average of 26, the state isnt about to keep sticking with them forever
People claim he never got enough chances, by the end of this season he will still have only played half the amount of games for SA as he did for Victoria, yet already scored 1000 more runs than he ever did for Victoria, yet its Victorias fault?
We should send Lloyd Mash to SA next year, he will probably make 1000 runs a year as he has the same record and amount of chances as Klinger, doesnt mean they would ever come good playing for a good side
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.
Victoria wins a lot because few of their players are international class.
If every other state (besides Queensland and South Australia unfortunately) had all their international reps back playing for them, the Vics would be beaten a lot more often. It's just that there are a heck of a lot of Australian fringe players playing for Victoria, whereas the other states have true full time Australian players.
This is turning around lately with inclusions of Siddle, McKay and White, but look at the other players for Victoria, 2/3 of them are possible of playing for Australia, but can't get a game because other state players out play them.
I think this says something about the development and treatment of players there. To have so many talents ignored because of their state is a terrible thing.
So just remember that's why Victoria is dominant. Just think if NSW had all their international reps back. They would have a line up including Katich, Watson, Clarke, Lee, Clark and Bracken (might have missed someone). That along with the other talents there, they would be an unbeatable side.
It's just because Victorian players are great, but just not quite good enough.
Victoria wins a lot because few of their players are international class.
If every other state (besides Queensland and South Australia unfortunately) had all their international reps back playing for them, the Vics would be beaten a lot more often. It's just that there are a heck of a lot of Australian fringe players playing for Victoria, whereas the other states have true full time Australian players.
This is turning around lately with inclusions of Siddle, McKay and White, but look at the other players for Victoria, 2/3 of them are possible of playing for Australia, but can't get a game because other state players out play them.
I think this says something about the development and treatment of players there. To have so many talents ignored because of their state is a terrible thing.
So just remember that's why Victoria is dominant. Just think if NSW had all their international reps back. They would have a line up including Katich, Watson, Clarke, Lee, Clark and Bracken (might have missed someone). That along with the other talents there, they would be an unbeatable side.
It's just because Victorian players are great, but just not quite good enough.
eddiesmith
Active Member
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.
Except for the fact that NSW got their arses kicked earlier this year when they had everyone back
Except for the fact that NSW got their arses kicked earlier this year when they had everyone back
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.
One game is a great amount of evidence.
You of all people, eddie, should be agreeing that Victoria doesn't have the developmental programmes and the rest discussed in this thread, because the way you talk about everyone in the team, if those programmes were good enough than the Australian side would be filled from 1-11 with Victorians.
eddiesmith;388859 said:
One game is a great amount of evidence.
You of all people, eddie, should be agreeing that Victoria doesn't have the developmental programmes and the rest discussed in this thread, because the way you talk about everyone in the team, if those programmes were good enough than the Australian side would be filled from 1-11 with Victorians.
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.
It is all about the environment that people like Klinger and Crosthwaite are brought up in.
It is a point that eddie himself makes. Klinger is virtually suffocated by the environment here and leaves to become the dominant player in the competition. Forget the Adelaide oval Klinger makes a century (including two doubles) virtually everytime he plays for Victoria.
The Australia team is traditionally selected on players the selectors feel have something to offer. They are then given every opportunity to perform.
For about the thousandth time, Victoria (the punters and the officials) cries foul every time a non-Victoria is selected in the test side yet we only have ourselves to blame. The selection policies reflect no confidence in the devlopment of Victorian juniors and very few players less than 25 (relative to the other states) have had impacts at shield level in the last 15 years.
It is all about the environment that people like Klinger and Crosthwaite are brought up in.
It is a point that eddie himself makes. Klinger is virtually suffocated by the environment here and leaves to become the dominant player in the competition. Forget the Adelaide oval Klinger makes a century (including two doubles) virtually everytime he plays for Victoria.
The Australia team is traditionally selected on players the selectors feel have something to offer. They are then given every opportunity to perform.
For about the thousandth time, Victoria (the punters and the officials) cries foul every time a non-Victoria is selected in the test side yet we only have ourselves to blame. The selection policies reflect no confidence in the devlopment of Victorian juniors and very few players less than 25 (relative to the other states) have had impacts at shield level in the last 15 years.
eddiesmith
Active Member
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.
SA definately dont, QLD have no one worthy of test representation and have only had Johnson come out of there in quite a few years, WA are shocking in that area and Tassie is Tassie
But it was interesting to watch today and see WA's 2 best bowlers and Tasmanias best batsman all Victorians. Although Knowles, like Klinger, isnt good enough to get a game for Victoria but we wouldnt mind having Birt and North back, although Birt is another player who showed alot of promise but hasnt delivered but we dont see alot of criticism towards Tasmania
One thing Victoria does lack is hype, Steve Smith is in the Australian team as a spinner with a bowling average of 41 in List A and 71 in First Class cricket. George Bailey is having his first ever decent season and suddenly supposed to be in the test side, hell some people used an argument of youth for him over White
Aaron Finch looks good, he wasnt thrown into the deep end immediately, he was allowed to find his feet by a few games here and there and develops, obviously in other states they are thrown into the state side, make a couple of centuries and play for Australia all within 2 seasons, then fail, go back and keep failing and its the Australian selectors faults for not sticking with a raw kid who is not ready for the top level. Wouldnt be suprised at all to see the same happen with Smith, will they dump him when he goes for 200 runs in a test?
Its all well and good for these states to throw the youngsters into the deep end, trouble it does is create unnecasary pressure on them, suddenly makes people believe that 20 is the best age for a player to play test cricket and at 26 they are too old
But there is nothing wrong with Victorias development programs, the fact that a player had to go and represent another country before the Australian selectors even noticed him despite being the no1 bowler in the country in T20 cricket shows more about selection than anything, things are improving a little bit with Siddle and McKay both getting chances now, Cameron White showing what he can do when not batting at no8. Jon Holland has been noticed by the selectors but like all spinners he will take a while, but you dont see everyone demanding Australia pick him with a poor record.
James Pattinson has a good future if he can get over injury problems. Matthew Wade is probably shooting up the pecking order for keepers as he keeps getting better with the bat. Andrew McDonald has played test cricket, extremely unlucky to be dropped and should be back for Australia shortly, cant do anymore.
Its not Victorias fault that the selectors ignore the likes of Hodge, Hussey and Rogers and yes I do know that a couple of mentioned players are imports, but as said earlier, we have a few players cemented in other state sides who left Victoria when they were young. Plus for all the talk of NSW being a dominant state for development, half of NSW's current test players are all imports and were all established first class players when NSW picked them up, they also threw money at Hodgey as well. David Hussey has been well developed by Victoria as has Matthew Wade
But Victoria has a massive hurdle as do SA and WA, thats AFL. Many talented juniors have chosen AFL over cricket because there is more money, with any luck T20 will change all that. NSW and QLD dont have that problem as Rugby attracts different types and there is no money in League
So then you would be saying that NSW is the only state in Australia with that development program?Boris;388865 said:
SA definately dont, QLD have no one worthy of test representation and have only had Johnson come out of there in quite a few years, WA are shocking in that area and Tassie is Tassie
But it was interesting to watch today and see WA's 2 best bowlers and Tasmanias best batsman all Victorians. Although Knowles, like Klinger, isnt good enough to get a game for Victoria but we wouldnt mind having Birt and North back, although Birt is another player who showed alot of promise but hasnt delivered but we dont see alot of criticism towards Tasmania
One thing Victoria does lack is hype, Steve Smith is in the Australian team as a spinner with a bowling average of 41 in List A and 71 in First Class cricket. George Bailey is having his first ever decent season and suddenly supposed to be in the test side, hell some people used an argument of youth for him over White
Aaron Finch looks good, he wasnt thrown into the deep end immediately, he was allowed to find his feet by a few games here and there and develops, obviously in other states they are thrown into the state side, make a couple of centuries and play for Australia all within 2 seasons, then fail, go back and keep failing and its the Australian selectors faults for not sticking with a raw kid who is not ready for the top level. Wouldnt be suprised at all to see the same happen with Smith, will they dump him when he goes for 200 runs in a test?
Its all well and good for these states to throw the youngsters into the deep end, trouble it does is create unnecasary pressure on them, suddenly makes people believe that 20 is the best age for a player to play test cricket and at 26 they are too old
But there is nothing wrong with Victorias development programs, the fact that a player had to go and represent another country before the Australian selectors even noticed him despite being the no1 bowler in the country in T20 cricket shows more about selection than anything, things are improving a little bit with Siddle and McKay both getting chances now, Cameron White showing what he can do when not batting at no8. Jon Holland has been noticed by the selectors but like all spinners he will take a while, but you dont see everyone demanding Australia pick him with a poor record.
James Pattinson has a good future if he can get over injury problems. Matthew Wade is probably shooting up the pecking order for keepers as he keeps getting better with the bat. Andrew McDonald has played test cricket, extremely unlucky to be dropped and should be back for Australia shortly, cant do anymore.
Its not Victorias fault that the selectors ignore the likes of Hodge, Hussey and Rogers and yes I do know that a couple of mentioned players are imports, but as said earlier, we have a few players cemented in other state sides who left Victoria when they were young. Plus for all the talk of NSW being a dominant state for development, half of NSW's current test players are all imports and were all established first class players when NSW picked them up, they also threw money at Hodgey as well. David Hussey has been well developed by Victoria as has Matthew Wade
But Victoria has a massive hurdle as do SA and WA, thats AFL. Many talented juniors have chosen AFL over cricket because there is more money, with any luck T20 will change all that. NSW and QLD dont have that problem as Rugby attracts different types and there is no money in League
LIONS then DAYLIGHT
Banned
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.
To be fair, Victoria are now starting to churn out some players that can perform at this level.
Cameron White looks like a potential ODI star and a possibly a solid test middle order batsmen.
Clint McKay is someone who I really think can be a good bowler for Australia, in the Stuart Clark mode.
Peter Siddle started well but, as we all know, Siddle has had issues with form and injury but never the less he is still highly rated.
So Victoria have had a few players come through lately, I have always thought the low, slow nature of the MCG has hurt the development of Victorian players because the bowlers don't get anything out of it and the batsmen can't play their shots.
The wicket down at the MCG appears to be getting a bit for pace and life back into it so as that continues to improve I guess we will see more Vics coming through.
To be fair, Victoria are now starting to churn out some players that can perform at this level.
Cameron White looks like a potential ODI star and a possibly a solid test middle order batsmen.
Clint McKay is someone who I really think can be a good bowler for Australia, in the Stuart Clark mode.
Peter Siddle started well but, as we all know, Siddle has had issues with form and injury but never the less he is still highly rated.
So Victoria have had a few players come through lately, I have always thought the low, slow nature of the MCG has hurt the development of Victorian players because the bowlers don't get anything out of it and the batsmen can't play their shots.
The wicket down at the MCG appears to be getting a bit for pace and life back into it so as that continues to improve I guess we will see more Vics coming through.
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.
To sum it all up:
If the best state domestically has very few, if any, representatives in the international side for an extended period of time, and a seeming ignorance of the individuals that are doing well, then something is wrong.
It isn't the selectors fault at being biased or anything like that either. If you think back the past 10 years the selection as a whole has actually been very good. The only time you notice a selector is if they do something wrong, which isn't that often in Australia.
To sum it all up:
If the best state domestically has very few, if any, representatives in the international side for an extended period of time, and a seeming ignorance of the individuals that are doing well, then something is wrong.
It isn't the selectors fault at being biased or anything like that either. If you think back the past 10 years the selection as a whole has actually been very good. The only time you notice a selector is if they do something wrong, which isn't that often in Australia.
eddiesmith
Active Member
Re: Victoria doesn't deserve to have any Australian representatives.
Except for when they go to England, yet the Victorian boys who cant get a look in make lots of runs every year in England, can never make the Ashes side, yet the Aussie batting fails everytime over there in recent years, funny that...
When Australia beat South Africa, there was as many Victorian born players in the side as those from NSW, yet Victoria has problems and NSW is fine?
Except for when they go to England, yet the Victorian boys who cant get a look in make lots of runs every year in England, can never make the Ashes side, yet the Aussie batting fails everytime over there in recent years, funny that...
When Australia beat South Africa, there was as many Victorian born players in the side as those from NSW, yet Victoria has problems and NSW is fine?