Some Questions...

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TomBowler97

TomBowler97

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These questions are all related to Leg Spin:

1.How important is the arm speed in creating revolutions on the ball?
2. How to spin the ball hard and not lose flight/ a nice speed?
3. How important is pivoting at the right time?
4. Will bowling slower be easier to get into rhythm and spin the ball?
5. Will a high arm mean less side spin?
5a. Will a high arm mean less energy on the ball because I am not coming round the seam?
5b. Will lowering my arm make it easier to always pitch right? (High arm more liable to full tosses and drag down, because of the opening of the body too early?
6. How loose should the ball be in the fingers?
6a. If the ball is looser in the hands will it be easier to release and therefore get more revolutions?
6b. Which is more important? The flicking of the wrist in getting spin or the fingers?
7. Chest on or Side on? The benefits of both?
8. Which tempo of approach to get in rhythm and be able to spin the ball?
9. Short or long run up better?
10. How to get more energy in action to help follow through?
11. After flicking the wrist to bowl a leg spinner, should the palm finish facing down?
12. At the point of release, for a leg spinner, should the wrist be cocked at the angle where you can see your palm? (So the wrist is flopped down) Like Warne's in this video at 3.07.

This is in relation to the first picture on my recent blog, where B boogiespinner pointed out about my release point.

13. Front arm pull down towards target? How does this help?
14. Should the front arm be pulled down fast or slow?
15. This could be a long answer, but simply, how to spin the ball more and what are the factors in getting the ball to spin more/getting more revolutions on the ball throughout the action?

I know there is a lot of questions but if you get the time please reply, desperate to make myself a better leg spinner, and as well all know in the cricket community, it is a very difficult art.
 
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I like how keen you are. In short, I'd suggest doing what I have done and pick up a copy of The Art of Wrist-Spin Bowling by Peter Philpott. I think he addresses pretty much everything you could wish to know about wrist spin.

For what it's worth, I'll try to answer some of your questions. Arm speed is a tricky one. The speed comes from your rotation but arm speed is a part of it. The problem you can have, and this is a problem many have, is that in trying to bowl the ball quicker you end up trying to bowl with your arm and not use your body. It all needs to sync together, so thinking about arm speed can be detrimental. You should aim to think about the speed of your rotation.

Spinning the ball hard and not losing flight etc just comes down to practice, practice and more practice. You have to work at it for years until you have such a good feel on control that you can add flight at will.

Pivoting at the right time is essential. But it all depends on your technique. I bowl with a front foot straight down the crease (although I have been experimenting with getting the front foot at 45 degrees), so my pivot happens a little later in my action as I can get chest on without any change in the front foot position. In general, your foot will want to be facing down the crease once you get to chest on. If it lands at 45 degrees, then once your chest gets past 45 degrees you will probably start to feel resistance in your foot and so the pivot will happen (or should happen). If you don't pivot, that resistance will effect your rotation and you may also risk injury. As far as I am aware, as long as you get certain basics right then a lot of other things like the pivot and back leg movement take care of themselves.

Everybody has differet rhythm when bowling, so bowling slower may help some and may hinder others. Rhythm really is about balance and a build of momentum.

A higher arm usually means you get less purchase on the ball. Unless you have really long fingers, a high arm will have your fingers struggling to rip across the top of the ball. A lot of people suggest dropping the left shoulder when bowling the topspinner and the googly and it is for the very reason that a high arm/vertical arm will lead to more overspin than sidespin. An ideal position is as upright as you can be (if possible, both shoulders horizontal and eyes also horizontal) with the arm about 45 degrees. Most people struggle to be completely upright (Abdul Qadir was a great exponent of being completely upright but he then had a totally vertical bowling arm) and most people struggle to have a 45 degree angle. As close as you can get to both those positions is where you want to be. A higher arm will not mean fewer revs or less energy. It will just mean less sidespin.

A higher arm is probably better for accuracy than a lower arm because of a more consistent line. Any angle in the bowling arm means that releasing the ball a fraction too early or too late will effect both line and length. If the arm is totally upright than you should only have issues with controlling the length you bowl.

A looser grip will generate more spin from the fingers and more spin from the fingers means more spin for the wrist to work with. But a looser grip is harder to control and, related to the arm angle, difficult to produce sidespin with anything but a lower arm. Ultimately, the grip is all about what feels comfortable to you. I have a loose grip and and therefore an upright arm means I will get less purchase on the ball (less sidespin).

Interesting question about what is more important in getting spin, the fingers or the wrist. Without doubt, it is the wrist. However, the importance of the fingers should not be underplayed. The fingers generate spin and the wrist amplifies that. I suppose it is possible that someone could generate a small amount from the fingers but have a really good wrist flick and someone could have really strong fingers, generate a lot of spin from their fingers and need less of a wrist flick to get big spin. Someone like Warne had strong fingers spin and a big wrist flick, hence the big revs.

Chest on or side on? This is all about rotation. The idea is that you land side on and rotate 180 degrees, releasing the ball at the halfway point. If you land at the crease chest on, you will simply be unable to generate much energy on the ball.

Tempo of approach is again individual. Impossible to say which is best for you. All that matters is that you build momentum so that you hit the crease when accelerating and not in deceleration. Similar for length of run up. Whatever works best for you. You need balance and rhythm and so you need to work out which approach to the crease gives you that.

How to get more energy? Some bowlers get chest on early and have very fast arms (think Adul Qadir) and others use more of a rotation (think Warne). But everything you need to know about energy on the ball is rotation, rotation, rotation. There are other aspects of course, but they all relate to how to rotate effectively.

The direction of the palm after bowling a legspinner would point towards leg slip's legs/feet (that's at the very point the ball is released). Immediately after, the palm then starts to face the ground.

Warne's wrist position is perfect. That's what you should look to repeat in your action.

As per the question about getting more energy on the ball. The front arm pulling down aids rotation and rotation is where you get your energy. You pull it at the target as you want your weight and momentum heading at the target. This is all to do with your shoulders. Your front arm and shoulder will provide the line for your bowling arm and shoulder to follow. You really want that back foot to land on the same line as the front foot when you finish your action. If you do so, you will be balanced and in control. In pretty much any sport, being able to hold your position after an action is completed is a sure sign of balance and control. If your follow through lacks balance and control, your bowling will too.

Some bowlers (like Pravin Tambe) pull their front arm down a little later than others. Their front arm is at shoulder height at the same time that their bowling arm is at shoulder height. Others pull their arm down a little earlier. Generally, holding it up a little longer will get you pulling down on it with real energy. It's not really about pulling it down fast or slow, but about pulling it down hard. If anything, pull it down fast. But you should be thinking "hard" rather than "fast". Also, where you pull it to can be a factor. I tend to bring it in at the elbow to my side and then leaves me losing height. I would advise pulling it down hard but trying to keep it reasonably straight and close to the front leg.

To spin the ball hard/more, you need to hit the crease with decent momentum, be side on, get the front arm high, pull it down hard towards the target and then to your front leg (which should also be on the line of the target), stay as upright as you can, have you arm as close to 45 degrees as possible, have a reasonably loose grip, have a relaxed wrist and the ball will spin huge. Easy ;)
 
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This is a lot of stuff to be thinking about

about (12). I don't want to confuse things and am a bit worried I have done. The position I was referring to - where the ball is pointing square of the wicket such as in this picture of Warne http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/1999+Cricket+World+Cup+Great+Britain+wUGwh37xyRCl.jpg

is not the actual release position, it is a stage before. I don't believe that the ball should be released with the wrist remaining cocked, I think it has to uncock.

what I think is notable about that position is that I believe it is a position that must be passed through in order to produce the big legspin seam angles and you can easily find MacGill and Qadir pictures featuring this dramatic hand position among other bowlers. If the ball comes over the top of the wrist, then I think it must produce mostly topspin, whatever else is done.

This isn't a position that the ball stays in, what seems to happen is that the ball swings from behind the wrist, around the side (wrist still cocked), and around to the front as it is released, the wrist uncocking, and I believe the faster it does this the more spin will result.

I couldn't really tell if you were doing this or not from your picture as I don't know how close to release you were, but wanted to contribute my current thoughts and theory.
 
boogiespinner said:
This is a lot of stuff to be thinking about

about (12). I don't want to confuse things and am a bit worried I have done. The position I was referring to - where the ball is pointing square of the wicket such as in this picture of Warne http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/1999+Cricket+World+Cup+Great+Britain+wUGwh37xyRCl.jpg

is not the actual release position, it is a stage before. I don't believe that the ball should be released with the wrist remaining cocked, I think it has to uncock.

what I think is notable about that position is that I believe it is a position that must be passed through in order to produce the big legspin seam angles and you can easily find MacGill and Qadir pictures featuring this dramatic hand position among other bowlers. If the ball comes over the top of the wrist, then I think it must produce mostly topspin, whatever else is done.

This isn't a position that the ball stays in, what seems to happen is that the ball swings from behind the wrist, around the side (wrist still cocked), and around to the front as it is released, the wrist uncocking, and I believe the faster it does this the more spin will result.

I couldn't really tell if you were doing this or not from your picture as I don't know how close to release you were, but wanted to contribute my current thoughts and theory.
Click to expand...

By uncock, do you mean the flick forwards to create revolutions on the ball?
 
boogiespinner said:
This isn't a position that the ball stays in, what seems to happen is that the ball swings from behind the wrist, around the side (wrist still cocked), and around to the front as it is released, the wrist uncocking, and I believe the faster it does this the more spin will result.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. If you look at the inside of the arm (specifically an area called the antecubital fossa, which is the fold inside the elbow joint) you will see that it is facing down the wicket and as the wrist flicks into the legspin release position this area then faces more towards the bowler. For a topspinner/googly, this area faces square and as the ball is released it then faces down the wicket.

It is related to something I was talking about on another thread a few days ago. I tend not to think of where I want the palm of the hand to face, but where I want the inside of my wrist to face as this determines where your wrist will flick and, I think, is easier to consciously control in your action. Obviously, the inside of the wrist will face towards the batter for the legspinner, square for the topspinner and behind you for the googly.
 
Cleanprophet said:
Absolutely. If you look at the inside of the arm (specifically an area called the antecubital fossa, which is the fold inside the elbow joint) you will see that it is facing down the wicket and as the wrist flicks into the legspin release position this area then faces more towards the bowler. For a topspinner/googly, this area faces square and as the ball is released it then faces down the wicket.

It is related to something I was talking about on another thread a few days ago. I tend not to think of where I want the palm of the hand to face, but where I want the inside of my wrist to face as this determines where your wrist will flick and, I think, is easier to consciously control in your action. Obviously, the inside of the wrist will face towards the batter for the legspinner, square for the topspinner and behind you for the googly.
Click to expand...

For my release I try and concentrate on what Shane Warne says about having the back of your hand facing you, Also I believe my wrist is still cocked on release, I am not sure about that, if so, is this why the balls seam is not perfectly rotating and spins strangely? That's not very well put but I know it was mentioned before on my video.

These show just before release point and release.

https://gyazo.com/9126315b5fb1db1bb538f463b071c3f3
https://gyazo.com/c7c84f8da212467f49046b522aa3149c

B boogiespinner
C Cleanprophet
 
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TomBowler97 said:
By uncock, do you mean the flick forwards to create revolutions on the ball?
Click to expand...

Yep, that's what he means. That wrist should be cocked or bent right up until the very last moment (as you see in that Warne pic). The 3rd finger or spinning finger drags across the top of the ball (and it must be over the top of the ball for maximum purchase on the ball) and that happens right at the end of the wrist flick or, as boogiespinner says, the uncocking of the wrist.
 
TomBowler97 said:
For my release I try and concentrate on what Shane Warne says about having the back of your hand facing you, Also I believe my wrist is still cocked on release, I am not sure about that, if so, is this why the balls seam is not perfectly rotating and spins strangely? That's not very well put but I know it was mentioned before on my video.
Click to expand...

In short, if your wrist doesn't flick open at the right time you will either produce a full toss (if it opens too early) or a drag down (if it opens too late). Getting these things to sync takes time and effort and in the end it becomes a natural process.
 
Thanks C Cleanprophet and B boogiespinner you guys have been extremely helpful! I think because of my high arm it may be physically impossible to get this position? As the shoulder being higher affects its efficiency in the delievery?

Also on the screenshots, do you know why the ball comes out like that, I use the normal Shane Warne two fingers down two fingers up, the first is jut before release and second is the release, and you can see the ball coming out with the seam straight, I would be happy with that if it was meant to be a top spinner, but it was meant to be a leggie. This happens alot so I do not know if it is down to release position or time of release? This is a screenshot of a new video I will post on Friday most likely. You can see the same delivery with the seam completely different on different times, is this something simple such as making sure the third finger is bent and on the seam before the extension of it, making sure I feel the contact on the seam?

https://gyazo.com/dfe5c205b1ec9acd06c3b4e905a291e8
https://gyazo.com/e4ad7c9040e2999b642b90f5dfae43f6

Release action:
fd81575f91e5a70e58ba179e030966e3.png

https://gyazo.com/fd81575f91e5a70e58ba179e030966e3


What do you think?
 
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The combination of a low left shoulder and vertical arm will make it very difficult (maybe impossible) to get that spinning finger/3rd finger on top of the ball. Most times a ball is dragged down it is because that spinning finger gets stuck on top of the ball, but it is very much possible to drag down a topspinner and a googly (although those drag downs are more a result of the other fingers rather than the spinning finger getting stuck on top of the seam). Looking at your action, I would guess that the spinning finger is not getting on top of the ball and that is why you often bowl topspinners rather than legspinners.

That left shoulder is not that low really and your action is reasonably upright. It is mainly that high arm that is preventing you bowling legspinners. You probably only need to drop that bowling arm a small amount to find that you bowl a lot less topspinners. Really, the difference in the hand position for a topspinner and a legspinner is quite small and so it doesn't take much of a change in arm position and/or left shoulder position to switch between the two deliveries - intentionally or not.
 
And because the finger isn't on the seam, the seam is scrambled through the air?

So would you recommend trying lower arm and lower shoulder?
 
TomBowler97 said:
And because the finger isn't on the seam, the seam is scrambled through the air?
Click to expand...

Exacly right. That spinning finger will slide down the ball a little bit. If the seam wasn't scrambled you would probably find that the seam is tilted towards you a bit rather than completely upright.

TomBowler97 said:
So would you recommend trying lower arm and lower shoulder?
Click to expand...

I'd try dropping the arm a little bit. You may only need to drop the arm a small amount, but it is worth trying. The left shoulder, if you do anything, could be a bit higher not lower. But, I'd just try the lower arm for now.
 
TomBowler97 said:
These questions are all related to Leg Spin:

1.How important is the arm speed in creating revolutions on the ball?
2. How to spin the ball hard and not lose flight/ a nice speed?
3. How important is pivoting at the right time?
4. Will bowling slower be easier to get into rhythm and spin the ball?
5. Will a high arm mean less side spin?
5a. Will a high arm mean less energy on the ball because I am not coming round the seam?
5b. Will lowering my arm make it easier to always pitch right? (High arm more liable to full tosses and drag down, because of the opening of the body too early?
6. How loose should the ball be in the fingers?
6a. If the ball is looser in the hands will it be easier to release and therefore get more revolutions?
6b. Which is more important? The flicking of the wrist in getting spin or the fingers?
7. Chest on or Side on? The benefits of both?
8. Which tempo of approach to get in rhythm and be able to spin the ball?
9. Short or long run up better?
10. How to get more energy in action to help follow through?
11. After flicking the wrist to bowl a leg spinner, should the palm finish facing down?
12. At the point of release, for a leg spinner, should the wrist be cocked at the angle where you can see your palm? (So the wrist is flopped down) Like Warne's in this video at 3.07.

This is in relation to the first picture on my recent blog, where B boogiespinner pointed out about my release point.

13. Front arm pull down towards target? How does this help?
14. Should the front arm be pulled down fast or slow?
15. This could be a long answer, but simply, how to spin the ball more and what are the factors in getting the ball to spin more/getting more revolutions on the ball throughout the action?

I know there is a lot of questions but if you get the time please reply, desperate to make myself a better leg spinner, and as well all know in the cricket community, it is a very difficult art.
Click to expand...


Much of this is down to experimentation, reflection and trial and error. There is no quick fix unless you've got someone who knows what they're talking about standing there when you're bowling making observations and telling you what you're doing wrong and then it's still not guaranteed to fix it (Steve Smith with Jenner and Warne advising for instance).
1. Arm speed might be beneficial - but for the moment don't worry about it.
2. Just spin it hard and the other parts will fall into place.
3. Essential - trial and error/practice.
4. Not necessarily re rhythm, but the slower the ball travels the more likely it's going to turn more acutely.
5. Almost certainly it seems.
5a. Marginally less I reckon - but if you were primarily a bowler with a top-spin preference, your top-spinner might have more revs than your leggie.
5b. My experience is that the lower arm is slightly more accurate.
6. Very loose.
6a. Yes
6b. Combining both perfectly - when it works you know it has... it just feel absolutely right.
7. Side on every time - no benefits from front on - side-on puts more of everything on the ball.
8. You have to find that out yourself and try both ways and see what suits you.
9. Whatever suits you.
10. Practice, timing, fitness, agility figuring out the correct approach for you.
11. Bowling is idiosyncratic, each person develops their own method of release.
12. Warne bowls like Warne, you bowl like you, you have to figure out your way, you may never be able to bowl massive turning leg breaks, but you might develop and beautiful over-spun leg break with a subtle variation that takes shed loads of wickets.
13. Yes, it helps to put spin on the ball.
14. Depends what you're trying to achieve, but you should have a regular speed that does for you, the variation in speed might be the method by which you vary your delivery.
15. Practice, practice, practice, analysis and reflection and endless experimentation of get yourself a coach. A comfortable approach to the crease, a good bound into a side on position, seemingly a biggish delivery stride, rotate your hips and shoulders, look over the outside of your leading arm, pivot up on the toes through the delivery action, whip the arm over with a cocked wrist, unfurl the wrist and flick with your fingers simultaneously, bring your leading arm down past your hips and fade out through the follow through heading down the wicket towards the batsman.

*It might take another 6 years or so yet to get the basics right, Try and keep it simple.
 
Cleanprophet said:
Exacly right. That spinning finger will slide down the ball a little bit. If the seam wasn't scrambled you would probably find that the seam is tilted towards you a bit rather than completely upright.



I'd try dropping the arm a little bit. You may only need to drop the arm a small amount, but it is worth trying. The left shoulder, if you do anything, could be a bit higher not lower. But, I'd just try the lower arm for now.
Click to expand...
So I should grip the ball making sure the third finger is bent across the seam?

Also what are the benefits of a higher shoulder and a lower shoulder?
 
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TomBowler97 said:
So I should grip the ball making sure the third finger is bent across the seam?

Also what are the benefits of a higher shoulder and a lower shoulder?
Click to expand...

Usually, that third finger will sit alongside the seam (bent down). The aim is to get the end of the third finger (around the area of the end joint of the finger) dragging over the top of the ball. The inside of that end joint will make contact with the ball/seam and drag across the ball and as it does so the finger pad will be on top of the ball. As the ball leaves the hand it will make contact with the outside the spinning finger, so the ball actually makes a constant contact on that spinning finger from the inside to the outside.

There is a link between the left shoulder and the height of the bowling arm. If the left shoulder drops, the bowling arm's position becomes more vertical. It's not always as simple as making your bowling arm a little more round arm. Usually stopping that left shoulder from dropping too much will help keep that bowling arm a bit lower, so both things tend to go together. I'll say it again though, you may only need to stop that left shoulder dropping a small amount to see a big difference in your hand's release position.
 
TomBowler97 said:
Also what are the benefits of a higher shoulder and a lower shoulder?
Click to expand...

I should also point out why that left shoulder drops. It's pretty much a natural physical action to pull that left shoulder down and the left arm/elbow into your left hip because that helps pull the right hand side around with more energy/speed. Watch a pitcher in baseball and see how this all happens or watch a fast bowler do it too as he pushes for maximum arm speed in his bowling arm. It is something you will be naturally inclined to do and it is something I've had particular trouble with. It is something you need to train out of yourself. There will probably always be a slight drop of the left shoulder because it is very hard to generate really good energy on the ball without it. Abdul Qadir is one of the very few who was able to bowl with really good energy on the ball without dropping that left shoulder at all. Most legspinners trade a slight drop of the shoulder for a little less sidespin because the extra bit of energy you can generate is worth the trade. Some, like Samuel Badree, trade almost all sidespin for a large drop of the left shoulder and fast rotation.

Pulling that shoulder down and the left arm into your torso/hip gets legs and upper body all working to pull the right side of the body around. When you are very upright, you will find that the gluteus medius muscle (which is the muscle on the hip) takes a lot of strain. This muscle has to built up in strength gradually. Liz has mentioned before how she often sees young spin bowlers have problems with this muscle because they are forcing that rotation to happen when the muscle is not developed enough to handle it. So, work on keeping that left shoulder a bit higher and you will get more sidespin on the ball and be wary of how much more likely you will be to drop that left shoulder the harder you try to spin the ball. It will take a bit of time to develop an upright action happen more naturally (depending on how much work you do, it could take a good few weeks or even months). I'm working on it now. It's been a week or two and the inclination to pull that left shoulder down when I try to really rip the ball is still very strong.

I like this video of Stuart MacGill. In this, he is bowling at his best and it is supreme legspin and great for young legspinners to watch and learn from. Look how upright he is and how that left shoulder drops only a small amount (the head position is usually the thing to watch for - as upright as possible):

 
Liz Ward said:
See if Dewsy's video helps to explain it: http://cricketstrength.com/something-spinners/
Click to expand...

Very good video. He speaks about upwardly rotating and that is a vital component. Rotating in the hips/torso is something that you will be naturally inclined to do. That upward rotation is what top quality legspinners do well. Rotating the shoulders with energy and not pulling the left shoulder in towards the hips and torso.
 
G’day fellas, cricket season is starting over here in Australia. This year for my club we’ve got some exciting talent and experience coming over to play for us. Since his gig with the Queensland Bulls, Stuart Law has been signed to play a few games in 2nd grade this year. Sam Northeast or Fabian Cowdrey from Kent are set to come over and play for us, with Ivan Thomas who played against Australia in a tour game is also signed to play for us this year. Former New Zealand opening batter Peter Fulton and spin bowling all-rounder Alecz Day who played for Wellington is already over here for the first few rounds and current Queensland Bulls player James Bazley will vice-captain the 1st grade team. We have a few other international players coming over and some really good young talent from here already in the set up.

So we have a lot of experienced players set to play this season and it will be a great opportunity to play with and hopefully gain a lot knowledge from the experience of these players.

I’m also very interested to hear if you guys have any questions that I can ask these guys and hopefully get some really good answers for you. We've got a lot of spinners too and particularly leg spinners, so I'm sure there's some interest from you guys in this area.

Thanks guys and hopefully we can get lots of questions and good answers.
 
Hi Tom,

Out of all the various videos I've seen of legspinners saying how to do it, the one I think comes closest to nailing things is this clip of Richie Benaud, as he is carefully showing the intended hand position and movement on release. It's the first fifteen seconds of this video. With some extra commentary 1:20-1:40
 
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