Back-Spinning Deliveries

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I had a look at the Art and Science of cricket book a couple of nights ago looking for Woolmers take on Back-Spinners and it's rather superficial as are most people's analysis of back-spinners.

I think Macca, Saddo and I had a discussion before when we were all looking in to the Flipper and we were in general agreement that there didn't seem to be a lot of evidence from any professional cricketers that there was any requirement that they explored the history and origins of their deliveries - which I suppose makes sense. They are after all being trained and coached by old first class cricketers who know how to bowl 'their' deliveries and then pass on that knowledge. You can see that one bloke passes his knowledge onto another and in doing so he possibly retains the name of the delivery but by virtue of his own idiosyncratic method of bowling it he changes the look of it and the method slightly. I've always found Warnes explanations of the basic deliveries slightly idiosyncratic in comparison with the descriptions offered by both Philpott and Grimmett. There might be an argument in academic terms with regards the validity of the method of imparting the information. The book on one hand could argued as being the definitive method of defining what the delivery is as it would have had to have been edited by someone else of similar stature, whereas the video as a method of transmission is more ephemeral in some ways and would possibly go from being recorded to committed to tape/digital media within a matter of hours with far less scrutiny than a book?

All this then potentially leading to the blurring of definitions of each of the deliveries?

Part of the discussion we've been having has to be centred around looking at who and how is a delivery verified? Part of me would want to stick to the idea that unless it's in the written form and described by a recognised protaganist and then edited printed (Grimmett and Philpott) any description in other forms of media thereafter has to be suspect because of the potential for Chinese whispers. I would therefore maintain that - because some of the other back-spinning variations have never been committed to print in the same way that The orthodox back-spinner, The Leg break, the wrong un and the Top-Spinner have they are still subject to confirmation of a valid definition?
 
i'm more puzzled than ever after reading through his thread. if warne was taught the benaud/philpott orthodox back spinner how come i haven't see him ever bowling it. or at least i've not noticed it anyway. perhaps some of the wickets i've seen where its looked like a leg break that hasn't turned in fact it has been this back spinner? has anyone got a video where they can show him (or anyone) definitively actually using it? i'm dying to be convinced! its a shame that benaud doesn't give a demonstration of it in that MCC video, you'd think that'd be the one he taught rather than the flipper.
 
Doesn't jenner demo one he calls the slider on a video.

I remember warne or macgill bowling a backspinner at least once on tv, and a long time ago now, where they slow it down and benaud goes through the whole story of how doug ring showed him how to bowl it etc.
 
wish i could see that! i'm hunting through footage of the 2005 ashes. he must surely have used one in that series, there's a ton of sliders but no ring/benaud/philpotts as yet...i'm still loath to call it a zooter. i always associate that term with the infamous warne mind games.
 
macca said:
Doesn't jenner demo one he calls the slider on a video.

I remember warne or macgill bowling a backspinner at least once on tv, and a long time ago now, where they slow it down and benaud goes through the whole story of how doug ring showed him how to bowl it etc.
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I'll have tto go back to that and look at it again and scrutinise it and see whether it has elements of the Orthodox Back Spinner (OBS), which I'm sure it has, but he then call it a slider. The thing is with those videos they're all from the same stable as such, they're all very rudimentary and not explained in detail, I don't think he or Warne say that the seam should be vertical as it should be in the Orthodox back-spinner and neither do they say that the technique is to flick the ball inwards, so maybe because these aspects haven't been mentioned this is indeed a slider and is therefore different to the OBS?

Later - Just looked at the Jenner vid at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlWYcuaTosc&feature=related the cloverdale one. It's obvious these are knocked up on the quick and not subject to any editing or scrutiny. There's no back-spinner mentioned in this one at all and at the start he says that you spin the ball off of your 4th finger so I can only assume that Terry refers to his thumb as his first finger? While these video's are fine to get people off to a decent start, they are very simple. This one and the Warne ones do not mention the 'Round the loop' method of visualising what you're doing to get the variations. Maybe they're not aware of Philpotts book or maybe they don't see the value of explaining the round the loop theory and application? Again this kind of supports my suggestion that at this stage neither of them really want to go into detail. Think from Jenners point of view - If he did put all the info out there and it was comprehensive and supported with visuals and video he wouldn't get as many people asking him to come to England and other places to do his Bowling schools and earn revenue and get paid to travel all round the world. The same with Warne - he must be holding back in the same way. He wouldn't let all the secrets out as it would assist the opposition and surely some time in the future he'll produce a book with the details?

Interestingly on the BBC 'Shane Warne 5 deliveries' he refers to the Back-Spinner as 'The Back-Spinner' and describes the OBS initially, but then when the video comes up the title then says "Slider" (Back-Spinner) Jenner himself then says that the back-spinner is the Leg Break gone wrong. A few more seconds in he refers to it as 'The Slider' and says that the seam remains upright. The as he bowls it he says that it's the reverse of the Top-Spinner. The quality is such that you can't see the wrist position and release and then when he bowls it - it goes nice and straight with a fair degree of bounce - but he tells us that it 'Skids on'. Not in that instance it doesn't! The Flipper though which he bowls next which does have back-spin on it does go in very low. While he's a good bloke and no doubt knows a shed load of stuff about wrist spin bowling, he's also his own one man marketing team and part of a marketing team that supports Warne. So with these blokes - like anyone that is selling themselves to make a living will sell their product with a Glass is half full approach, whereas in fact some of this (Slider/Back-spinner aspect) could be a case of Bulls**t baffles brains. Jenner we know from the research conducted on here by one of the others fails to acknowledge the existence of the Top-Spnning Flipper saying that it's not possible over 22 yards yet there's three of us on this thread that use it and take wickets with it.

The search continues for a definitive description of the Slider and the Zooter.
 
I cant remember but i am sure jenner demos (attempts to?) on one of those clips a vertical seam backspinner and calls it an lbw special, which it can be.

I think philpott points out how if you bowl legspin in oz on concrete and turf that is as hard as concrete, a backspinner comes in handy to counteract the bounce every so often as a variation.
 
the orthodox back spinner doesnt skid through, nor does it keep especially low. as ive described it many times, it has a sharp up-down bounce, and the maximum height of the bounce is much lower than it would be with side or over spin. but it doesnt stay anywhere near as low as the flipper, mainly because you flight it like a leg break. the flipper is bowled with the intention of tricking the batsman into thinking its a long hop. the "zooter" is bowled with the intention of making the batsman think its a leg break. then it holds up off the pitch (making it useful for either completely missed shots, or at least mistimed ones that can get easy catches), has the sharp up and down bounce, and stays a little lower, as well as going straight. so its also good for LBW and clean bowled dismissals.

on the five deliveries of Shane Warne video, there used to be a much better version of it on YouTube that no longer seems to be there. the BBC version is really small. he clearly demonstrated the "zooter" on that video though, but called it a slider. thats where i first found the delivery, which was then confirmed by Philpott, but i seem to remember being able to bowl a version of it prior to that, which had to have originated from the Jenner video. i was even calling is a slider originally based on the Jenner video! i only changed the name to the zooter after seeing the "Shane Warne on the flipper" video where he describes it clear as day.

with regards Warne using the delivery, i believe that many of his early straight-on wickets were taken with it, judging by his wrist position. commentators almost always mis-called them, often saying it was the flipper, but you could see from the wrist and thumb that it wasnt. the quality of video isnt good enough to be 100% sure though. due to the nature of the delivery, i reckon he may have discarded it later in his career after his shoulder surgery. thats when his slider became more prevalent.

P.S. on the Jenner BBC video Dave - look at the other deliveries, where they pitch, and how they bounce. the behind-the-stumps view is best. the leg break and googly both bounce quite significantly. the "slider" doesnt keep low as such, but its pitched on a similar length and barely clears the stumps, on what is clearly a very bouncy indoor surface. the flipper keeps lower, but its pitched WAY fuller, so its deceptive. i dont reckon its much lower than the slider. also Jenner clearly demonstrates the "karate chop" action, which is how the orthodox back spinner is bowled. whether he can actually execute it is another story, you cant see seam position or his hand in enough detail when he delivers it. but the end result is exactly what i find when i bowl mine.
 
Jim2109 said:
the orthodox back spinner doesnt skid through, nor does it keep especially low. as ive described it many times, it has a sharp up-down bounce, and the maximum height of the bounce is much lower than it would be with side or over spin. but it doesnt stay anywhere near as low as the flipper, mainly because you flight it like a leg break. the flipper is bowled with the intention of tricking the batsman into thinking its a long hop. the "zooter" is bowled with the intention of making the batsman think its a leg break. then it holds up off the pitch (making it useful for either completely missed shots, or at least mistimed ones that can get easy catches), has the sharp up and down bounce, and stays a little lower, as well as going straight. so its also good for LBW and clean bowled dismissals.

on the five deliveries of Shane Warne video, there used to be a much better version of it on YouTube that no longer seems to be there. the BBC version is really small. he clearly demonstrated the "zooter" on that video though, but called it a slider. thats where i first found the delivery, which was then confirmed by Philpott, but i seem to remember being able to bowl a version of it prior to that, which had to have originated from the Jenner video. i was even calling is a slider originally based on the Jenner video! i only changed the name to the zooter after seeing the "Shane Warne on the flipper" video where he describes it clear as day.

with regards Warne using the delivery, i believe that many of his early straight-on wickets were taken with it, judging by his wrist position. commentators almost always mis-called them, often saying it was the flipper, but you could see from the wrist and thumb that it wasnt. the quality of video isnt good enough to be 100% sure though. due to the nature of the delivery, i reckon he may have discarded it later in his career after his shoulder surgery. thats when his slider became more prevalent.

P.S. on the Jenner BBC video Dave - look at the other deliveries, where they pitch, and how they bounce. the behind-the-stumps view is best. the leg break and googly both bounce quite significantly. the "slider" doesnt keep low as such, but its pitched on a similar length and barely clears the stumps, on what is clearly a very bouncy indoor surface. the flipper keeps lower, but its pitched WAY fuller, so its deceptive. i dont reckon its much lower than the slider. also Jenner clearly demonstrates the "karate chop" action, which is how the orthodox back spinner is bowled. whether he can actually execute it is another story, you cant see seam position or his hand in enough detail when he delivers it. but the end result is exactly what i find when i bowl mine.
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hmmm interesting, you're making a strong argument here jim. i think i've had the idea of the OBS slightly wrong in my head until now. i was missing out how it incorporates the big flick and always pictured it kind of rolling out, but now it seems obvious to me thats its flicked as much as a big leg break in fact. but i'm starting to wonder whether there is any huge difference in the movements required for a slider and an OBS except that the slider has a scrambled seam. do you think that possibly they are the same delivery being subjected to natural variation? does the slider exclude the flick required for the OBS? is it a generally less wristy version of the OBS? one that is more pushed out the front of the hand?
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tObCnRsIY1U insufficient and far too vague and simplistic. The OBS (Orthodox back-spinner) if your read Philpott is most definitely a ripped out of the hand (Fingers and wrist) flick from the same stable as the Leg Break, Toppie and Wrong Un facilitating the use of the round the loop. That's set in granite, there is no argument with regards that, it's documented in a respected book. In the same way that the Flipper is too. The crux of the discussion is what the bloody hell is a Slider and a Zooter? This is where the mis-information comes in because no-one seemingly has ever pinned them down, there's shed loads of references to them on websites and in interviews, but the information and descriptions vary and seem to contradict each other. I'm of the opinion at the moment that they are so new in cricket terms that they're developmental and used by different people in different ways, handed down by coaches and through anecdotal references so that the descriptions merge with that of the OBS and the definitions blur. I've come to a conclusion as to what a Zooter seems to be as there seems to be consensus across the internet as to it's description and it's not an OBS. WIth regards to a description in a book by anyone of any consequence as to a Zooter - that doesn't seem to exist.

A slider though is very vague and may just be a poor description of an OBS that's come out wrong as Golden Arm has just suggested. Simply an OBS which comes out with a scrambled seam which could make sense as the proper up-right OBS with a perfectly presented seam must be nigh on impossible to bowl, so when it goes wrong you simply turn round to the on-lookers and Terry and say 'Strewth mate did you see the Slider there'? :)
 
the action for the slider and zooter (where the zooter is the OBS, and the slider the dragging the fingers delivery) would probably look fairly similar to a batsman. my own zooter looks more like a leg break though because of the wrist snap, i just cant hold my wrist round far enough throughout the whole delivery, so i have to snap it hard at the end to get it round enough. hence quite often i end up bowling big leg breaks rather than zooters because i dont get it round far enough.

the slider action isnt that similar though, in that you just use a completely normal leg break grip and then sort of flay the fingers open at the end to push the ball out and flick it with backspin (with minimal revs). whereas the zooter is all in the wrist, and the fingers work exactly the same as in the leg break. hence my saying its like a karate chop action. the spin imparted on the zooter is as hard spun (i actually reckon its faster spin because you have to impart so much more energy onto the ball just to get the wrist round far enough) as any leg break. hence its different effects to the flipper which isnt spun anywhere near as hard. the slider acts more similarly to the flipper than it does to the zooter, but without so many of the flight effects (due to the dirty seam position). the zooter acts more similarly to the leg break in flight.
 
are we in general agreement that the ball to Bell in the first test of 2005 (2nd innings) is simply a leg break that didn't turn? because for me that is the only real contender for a genuine back spinner due to it having perfect seam presentation. There are a couple to Harmison in the same series that are possibilities. one where he is caught by Ponting fairly spectacularly at silly point and another where he is bowled and left looking around utterly clueless as to what has happened but to me they look like sliders.
 
GoldenArm said:
are we in general agreement that the ball to Bell in the first test of 2005 (2nd innings) is simply a leg break that didn't turn? because for me that is the only real contender for a genuine back spinner due to it having perfect seam presentation. There are a couple to Harmison in the same series that are possibilities. one where he is caught by Ponting fairly spectacularly at silly point and another where he is bowled and left looking around utterly clueless as to what has happened but to me they look like sliders.
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I cant remember that well but my memory of that series was warne operating with a legbreak and various sliders but no zooters. Did he bowl flippers much or at all ?

But that was the series that convinced me he was by far the greatest bowler I have ever seen by a long way, with daylight second then Dennis Lillee and a bunch of others a distant third.
 
macca said:
I cant remember that well but my memory of that series was warne operating with a legbreak and various sliders but no zooters. Did he bowl flippers much or at all ?

But that was the series that convinced me he was by far the greatest bowler I have ever seen by a long way, with daylight second then Dennis Lillee and a bunch of others a distant third.
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not a single flipper in that series, i recall him not using it again until 2006/07 when he bowled one or two and mark nicholas was saying he couldn't believe he was retiring after rediscovering his flipper. then he cracked it out briefly for the IPL but he was half the bowler he used to be by then. gotta agree with you about the 2005 ashes though, he was unbelievable, which i think speaks volumes for how well Pietersen and Flintoff played at Edgbaston when they flayed him to all parts.

i'm determined to find an actual example of the so-called zooter, somewhere there must be footage of someone bowling one! i'm having an indoor net session next week and i'll be trying to bowl some myself so i'll see if i can get a mate to film it if i can get them going properly. i have the theory pretty soundly in my head now but i've got nowhere to practice! frustrating, god i wish i lived in Australia...
 
Give it a go goldenarm and you will be hooked. Some people reckon it's like rubbing your tummy and patting your head or whatever that thing is that you cant do, but it isn't that hard if you stick with it, you will crack it.
 
macca said:
Give it a go goldenarm and you will be hooked. Some people reckon it's like rubbing your tummy and patting your head or whatever that thing is that you cant do, but it isn't that hard if you stick with it, you will crack it.
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Whoa! Whoa! Zooter? Who what where - describe this Zooter before you bowl it please? Then tell me where you got the definition from? I've got a few lifted from websites - I want to here your take on what a Zooter is!

Jim are you saying that the Zooter is simply a different name for the Orthodox back-spinner?
 
someblokecalleddave said:
Whoa! Whoa! Zooter? Who what where - describe this Zooter before you bowl it please? Then tell me where you got the definition from? I've got a few lifted from websites - I want to here your take on what a Zooter is!

Jim are you saying that the Zooter is simply a different name for the Orthodox back-spinner?
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I'm with Jim on this. To me the zooter is the orthodox backspinner. I think jenner helped confusing everyone by calling it the slider in the bbc clip.
 
I'm okay with that concept. The Orthodox back-spinner also being called a Zooter, not something I'd adopt for myself but it's not been too much of an issue for the Wrong Un. The only issue is, most of the world does seem to be in disagreement with you or slightly at odds with the clarity of the Zooters definition.

Zooter: The grip - The ball is held much further back in the palm of the hand, which holds the ball back as you let it go. The delivery - The ball is pushed out the front of the hand, from the palm, and either floats or skids through the air, maybe swinging in a little. The seam is straight up and down and the zooter does not spin. And a couple of illustrations of: http://www.liveindia.com/cricket/Bowling.html

Zooter 1. n. a type of ball bowled by a leg spin bowler, which has little or no spin on it. cf. armball. http://www.dangermouse.net/cricket/glossary/z.html

Zooter – one of a leg spinner's subtler variations, this ball is slipped out of the hand without much spin imparted and tends to dip into the batsman. The term was coined by Shane Warne and his spin 'doctor' Terry Jenner, perhaps partly to enhance his mystique. http://www.channel4.com/sport/cricket/analyst/jargon/ana_42.html
Zooter: Fifteen years ago words like slider, zooter, back-spinner and toppie never existed - that was until Shane wrapped his fingers around the seam of a cricket ball. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sportacademy/hi/sa/cricket/features/newsid_3907000/3907623.stm

Zooter - 11 % (A variation of the flipper, bowled by a leg-break bowler with little or no spin on it. Typically zoots along the ground with little bounce.) http://www.todaytranslations.com/press-room/66/doosra-outscores-googly

Zooter: A spin bowling variation, first devised by Shane Warne. This is a delivery that snakes out of the hand with little or no spin imparted, and so deceives through its very ordinariness. Some question whether the delivery has ever existed, for it could be another of Warne's mindgames to keep his opponents on their toes http://static.cricinfo.com/db/ABOUT_CRICKET/EXPLANATION/CRICKET_TERMS.html

Zooter: As a fledgling leg-spinner, he was coached by Terry Jenner, Shane Warne's mentor. He was reminded of how Warne would often begin a tour by announcing a new mystery ball — the zooter, for instance. "Oh, that's just a slider," said Rashid, all matter of fact. "They're just the same ball with different names." http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/jan/19/adil-rashid-england-cricket-yorkshire

During the training for the tour of Sri Lanka, Shane basically relied on his big spinning leg breaks and flippers. He didn't bowl the googly, and his normal top-spinner was only fair. When I asked him if he knew how to bowl a top-spinner through the front of his fingers he seemed surprised. He seemed even more bemused when I said Peter Philpott, the respected Australian leg-spinner of the 1960s, called it his "back spinning toppie". I could never understand why either. Perhaps my aerodynamics weren't as good as Peter's. I showed Shane how it was done and while I thought it would probably take him six months to master it, he was bowling it in a Test match three weeks later.
A terrible irony of his life is that the media have sometimes come down hard on him, exploiting those moments when he let himself down off the field. I say `irony' because, being a clever bluffer on the field, he didn't mind using the media to his advantage, especially at the start of each season when he'd announce the discovery of his latest "mystery ball".
His opponents would see the headlines everywhere about something that didn't exist. In reality, there was never a new trick, only a revamping of the name for Peter Philpott's "back spinning toppie".
Shane originally called it his zooter, now he calls it his slider and over. The last decade or so the ball has brought him numerous lbw decisions. What there was, though, was a further improvement in his accuracy and flight. He was always fine-tuning his bowling and increasing his arsenal. http://www.hinduonnet.com/tss/tss3001/stories/20070106000201700.htm

This last bit here by Bob Simpson is probably the most telling. This to me supports my argument that the terms Slider and Zooter are both amomalous and that there isn't really a clear definition of either and the confusion is all a part of the Warne/Jenner propaganda machine. If the Zooter is indeed the Orthodox Back-Spinner, which I'm quite willing to accept, there seems to be an awful lot of people writing about it and getting it wrong with all those 'Non-Spinning, out of the front of the hand' descriptions? If the Zooter is the OBS then why confuse the matter and come up with Zooter?
 
someblokecalleddave said:
I'm okay with that concept. The Orthodox back-spinner also being called a Zooter, not something I'd adopt for myself but it's not been too much of an issue for the Wrong Un. The only issue is, most of the world does seem to be in disagreement with you or slightly at odds with the clarity of the Zooters definition.

Zooter: The grip - The ball is held much further back in the palm of the hand, which holds the ball back as you let it go. The delivery - The ball is pushed out the front of the hand, from the palm, and either floats or skids through the air, maybe swinging in a little. The seam is straight up and down and the zooter does not spin. And a couple of illustrations of: http://www.liveindia.com/cricket/Bowling.html

Zooter 1. n. a type of ball bowled by a leg spin bowler, which has little or no spin on it. cf. armball. http://www.dangermouse.net/cricket/glossary/z.html

Zooter – one of a leg spinner's subtler variations, this ball is slipped out of the hand without much spin imparted and tends to dip into the batsman. The term was coined by Shane Warne and his spin 'doctor' Terry Jenner, perhaps partly to enhance his mystique. http://www.channel4.com/sport/cricket/analyst/jargon/ana_42.html
Zooter: Fifteen years ago words like slider, zooter, back-spinner and toppie never existed - that was until Shane wrapped his fingers around the seam of a cricket ball. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sportacademy/hi/sa/cricket/features/newsid_3907000/3907623.stm

Zooter - 11 % (A variation of the flipper, bowled by a leg-break bowler with little or no spin on it. Typically zoots along the ground with little bounce.) http://www.todaytranslations.com/press-room/66/doosra-outscores-googly

Zooter: A spin bowling variation, first devised by Shane Warne. This is a delivery that snakes out of the hand with little or no spin imparted, and so deceives through its very ordinariness. Some question whether the delivery has ever existed, for it could be another of Warne's mindgames to keep his opponents on their toes http://static.cricinfo.com/db/ABOUT_CRICKET/EXPLANATION/CRICKET_TERMS.html

Zooter: As a fledgling leg-spinner, he was coached by Terry Jenner, Shane Warne's mentor. He was reminded of how Warne would often begin a tour by announcing a new mystery ball — the zooter, for instance. "Oh, that's just a slider," said Rashid, all matter of fact. "They're just the same ball with different names." http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/jan/19/adil-rashid-england-cricket-yorkshire

During the training for the tour of Sri Lanka, Shane basically relied on his big spinning leg breaks and flippers. He didn't bowl the googly, and his normal top-spinner was only fair. When I asked him if he knew how to bowl a top-spinner through the front of his fingers he seemed surprised. He seemed even more bemused when I said Peter Philpott, the respected Australian leg-spinner of the 1960s, called it his "back spinning toppie". I could never understand why either. Perhaps my aerodynamics weren't as good as Peter's. I showed Shane how it was done and while I thought it would probably take him six months to master it, he was bowling it in a Test match three weeks later.
A terrible irony of his life is that the media have sometimes come down hard on him, exploiting those moments when he let himself down off the field. I say `irony' because, being a clever bluffer on the field, he didn't mind using the media to his advantage, especially at the start of each season when he'd announce the discovery of his latest "mystery ball".
His opponents would see the headlines everywhere about something that didn't exist. In reality, there was never a new trick, only a revamping of the name for Peter Philpott's "back spinning toppie".
Shane originally called it his zooter, now he calls it his slider and over. The last decade or so the ball has brought him numerous lbw decisions. What there was, though, was a further improvement in his accuracy and flight. He was always fine-tuning his bowling and increasing his arsenal. http://www.hinduonnet.com/tss/tss3001/stories/20070106000201700.htm

This last bit here by Bob Simpson is probably the most telling. This to me supports my argument that the terms Slider and Zooter are both amomalous and that there isn't really a clear definition of either and the confusion is all a part of the Warne/Jenner propaganda machine. If the Zooter is indeed the Orthodox Back-Spinner, which I'm quite willing to accept, there seems to be an awful lot of people writing about it and getting it wrong with all those 'Non-Spinning, out of the front of the hand' descriptions? If the Zooter is the OBS then why confuse the matter and come up with Zooter?
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That Bob Simpson article is probably as close to the truth as we're likely to ever come. I'm yo-yoing a bit here but we're told explicitly that Warne learnt this method from a man who learnt it from Philpott. It seems to me this is pretty conclusive evidence that the slider and zooter (at least how Warne bowled them) are one and the same. the only difference being that it is almost impossible to achieve this mythical perfectly presented back spinning seam position and that like any delivery it is subject to a large amount of natural variation. Practicing the method i see as producing a back spinning toppie just from hand to hand the seam scrambles up most of the time, of course this is no substitute for seeing what it does when bowled with a full action, no doubt the dynamics will change. no matter how cold it is tomorrow i'm going outside with a set of stumps to practice this and see what happens!
 
GoldenArm said:
That Bob Simpson article is probably as close to the truth as we're likely to ever come. I'm yo-yoing a bit here but we're told explicitly that Warne learnt this method from a man who learnt it from Philpott. It seems to me this is pretty conclusive evidence that the slider and zooter (at least how Warne bowled them) are one and the same. the only difference being that it is almost impossible to achieve this mythical perfectly presented back spinning seam position and that like any delivery it is subject to a large amount of natural variation. Practicing the method i see as producing a back spinning toppie just from hand to hand the seam scrambles up most of the time, of course this is no substitute for seeing what it does when bowled with a full action, no doubt the dynamics will change. no matter how cold it is tomorrow i'm going outside with a set of stumps to practice this and see what happens!
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Do it from a standing position - just rip the ball out of the hand in front of you and let go forwards and see it spin back like a flipper - but only better! As Jim says, if you get the Orthodox Back-Spinner slightly wrong it then has the capacity to be a big leg break, or if the seams scrambled then it becomes a 'Slider'? But yeah - flick it inwards but project it forward slightly over a short distance - it's bloody hard as you're suspecting when bowled over a distance with some oomph!

What are we told? That Warne learned the Orthodox back-spinner from someone via Philpott? Then Warne re-branded it the Zooter and Slider to enhance his aura?
 
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