Bowling A Screwball

Top Contributors
M

mystikiel

New Member
There's this chap called Herrera who is doing very well in the MLBPA with his newly developed screwball (a flatspinning delivery that drifts from off to leg due to the Magnus effect). Basically he places the ball in his last three fingers and drags his pinky finger across the ball causing it to spin in a clockwise direction (when viewed from above).

You can see a video of him explaining the ball here:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CmGsXOvZOI

I was mucking around in the nets with a ball and thought to give it a try to see whether it could be bowled as a cricket delivery. I just put the ball in my last three fingers like he did and ran up and rolled my arm over. I thought the ball would behave like a flatspinner, but surprisingly when bowled rather than thrown the ball comes out sidespinning and behaves like a leg cutter, actually it broke quite significantly towards off.

I was quite happy with this and ran up and bowled it quite a few times. It was quite easy to bowl. On the other hand I can't bowl fast and so I don't know whether it would be threatening or not. I was going to post this in the fast bowling section but its not really a leg cutter, more of a spin delivery. I think it could be quite useful for a medium quick bowler, myself.
 
If you're doing what the bloke is doing in the video, you'd be bowling a Top-Spinner or maybe a Leg Break with loads of over-spin (Top Spin) especially if as you say it's breaking towards off. The ball should act differently in comparison to the baseball pitch because of the seam configuration of the baseball. The seam on a baseball causes a different action through the air. Although your grip is not conventional because you're bowling with baseball techniques, you're still bowling some weird hybrid of a leg break. Peter Philpott talks about the fact that grips are not set in granite and if you grip the ball in some weird way and still get the ball to spin, you're possibly still bowling wrist spin. He also advocates exploring baseball techniques as part of your development as a wrist spinners and being Australian, he's probablay played baseball in the off season and has some knowledge of the potential.
 
You're right I guess. The way he throws it, it would come out flatspinning and basically behave like a flying saucer ball.

I tried bowling a couple in the nets yesterday, it was actually a bit hard to control.

Mind you I bowled a lot of absolute chunder yesterday in the nets. Found it very hard to keep the ball down. I bowled a good wrongun that went through the batsman, but it bounced over the bloody stumps even though it landed on a length and I was bowling with a two piece ball.

It is an astroturf surface so I dont know it that bounces more than a pitch surface. The only other alternative is that I learn to bowl quicker, but I bowl about 65 k/h so it feels fast enough.
 
I'm a baseball pitcher myself (play Queensland div2) and let me tell you, screwball pitchers are so rare because it is simply too hard, both in regards to skill level and the stress it puts on your body. I throw about 130km/h at about 90% effort and if I were to throw with my palm facing towards third base and flick my wrist I would injure my shoulder.

Hence this is why most screwballs are thrown like this:
moz-screenshot.png


screw.jpg


Looks how you would hold a normal pace delivery, but you just roll your finger across like a leg cutter. This is pretty easy to pick up on in baseball and since it doesn't have any top spin (for drop) it's not that useful (a good batter can play for sideways movement relatively easy, it's just when you combine it with drop or rise that is the problem). This ball also doesn't curve much because you simply can't get the rotations on it.

This here is another take on a screwball:
images


This is also a grip for another ball, but can can be used for a screw. This grip would probably be more useful in cricket, which it is. Any leg spinner would notice that that is fairly close to a normal leg break (or it would be if you tried to replicate that with a cricket ball).

International fast bowlers have a sort of ball like the one you are thinking of, but it's used as a slower ball that comes out of the back of the hand.

Because the hand comes over so quickly when you are bowling fast you can get some pretty good revs with just a standard leg cutter. Different off cutting balls are available to you, but because of the stress on your body that bowling leg breaks will take at that speed, I'm not sure Herrera's screwball suits cricket. Unless I'm not reading you right?
 
Gday Boris, thanks for the info, very interesting. I think you might be right that the ball is not much use in cricket. I tried bowling it again and found it very difficult to control. Frankly it is more accurate bowling leg breaks.

Yes, its hard for cricketers to get their heads around the fact that sideways movement means comparatively little in baseball because they play exclusively with a cross bat. When I played baseball on Sega Mega Drive I would always make the ball swing in and out, not realising that in baseball you mainly want to make the ball dip and rise. I didnt realise that a curveball was thrown mainly with topspin to make it dip.

I understand the main screwball grip and I think I understand your alternative screwball grip, but it sounds like a very difficult ball to throw. When I was a kid I had a wiffle ball that me and my brother used to throw back and forth. To throw a scroogie I would hold the ball sideways in a fast bowlers grip with two fingers on top and thumb underneath, and then flick throw it, dragging my fingers down over the ball, so that it spun clockwise and swung to the right (more of a side arm action than over the top). I assume that would be very easy for a batter to pick though.

I am always excited when cricketers take something from baseball and apply it to cricket, such as when Adam Hollioake started bowling knuckleballs. When I played (slowpitch) softball in school I actually had a pretty good riseball, even though I could only throw at about 80kh or so. It was interesting to know that the flipper works along the same lines.

130kh at 90% effort sounds bloody impressive to me, even when I was eighteen I could only throw 112kh at absolute 100% effort...
 
mystikiel said:
Gday Boris, thanks for the info, very interesting. I think you might be right that the ball is not much use in cricket. I tried bowling it again and found it very difficult to control. Frankly it is more accurate bowling leg breaks.

Yes, its hard for cricketers to get their heads around the fact that sideways movement means comparatively little in baseball because they play exclusively with a cross bat. When I played baseball on Sega Mega Drive I would always make the ball swing in and out, not realising that in baseball you mainly want to make the ball dip and rise. I didnt realise that a curveball was thrown mainly with topspin to make it dip.

I understand the main screwball grip and I think I understand your alternative screwball grip, but it sounds like a very difficult ball to throw. When I was a kid I had a wiffle ball that me and my brother used to throw back and forth. To throw a scroogie I would hold the ball sideways in a fast bowlers grip with two fingers on top and thumb underneath, and then flick throw it, dragging my fingers down over the ball, so that it spun clockwise and swung to the right (more of a side arm action than over the top). I assume that would be very easy for a batter to pick though.

I am always excited when cricketers take something from baseball and apply it to cricket, such as when Adam Hollioake started bowling knuckleballs. When I played (slowpitch) softball in school I actually had a pretty good riseball, even though I could only throw at about 80kh or so. It was interesting to know that the flipper works along the same lines.

130kh at 90% effort sounds bloody impressive to me, even when I was eighteen I could only throw 112kh at absolute 100% effort...
Click to expand...
As a pitcher I've got the power and speed downpat easily, it's just this whole accuracy and variation thing that does me in. I can be pitching as fast as I possibly can but a batter can hit me out of the park because they know it's going to be dead straight. My speed (those Americans call it velocity for some odd reason, probably to sound smarter :D) is really the only reason I've gotten up to near state level, however, because Queensland doesn't really produce all that many baseballers, so pitching at "slower" speeds for a professional match is really extra fast to those that play with me.

Trying to apply some of the variations while pitching can damn near kill you with the effort involved, and you soon realise just why major league pitchers drop from 95mph to 60 while throwing variations.

But yes, try more traditional leg spin grips and see what they are like. Shahid Afridi bowls like that occasionally, sort of medium paced legbreaks and it's fairly effective. Paul Collingwood does the opposite, medium paced off breaks.

As an off spinner myself I have spent hours in nets just coming up with new balls to try and different ways to bowl stock balls. I've completely changed my grip for a standard off break because I find it puts more revolutions and is easier to flight than the standard grip, but that's just me. Then I have another variation in the "normal" off spinner, which drifts a lot more.

I guess my point is to experiment, just see what happens if you do something. Have you come up with any odd balls, other than the ones described obviously?
 
Boris said:
As a pitcher I've got the power and speed downpat easily, it's just this whole accuracy and variation thing that does me in. I can be pitching as fast as I possibly can but a batter can hit me out of the park because they know it's going to be dead straight. My speed (those Americans call it velocity for some odd reason, probably to sound smarter :D) is really the only reason I've gotten up to near state level, however, because Queensland doesn't really produce all that many baseballers, so pitching at "slower" speeds for a professional match is really extra fast to those that play with me.

Trying to apply some of the variations while pitching can damn near kill you with the effort involved, and you soon realise just why major league pitchers drop from 95mph to 60 while throwing variations.

But yes, try more traditional leg spin grips and see what they are like. Shahid Afridi bowls like that occasionally, sort of medium paced legbreaks and it's fairly effective. Paul Collingwood does the opposite, medium paced off breaks.

As an off spinner myself I have spent hours in nets just coming up with new balls to try and different ways to bowl stock balls. I've completely changed my grip for a standard off break because I find it puts more revolutions and is easier to flight than the standard grip, but that's just me. Then I have another variation in the "normal" off spinner, which drifts a lot more.

I guess my point is to experiment, just see what happens if you do something. Have you come up with any odd balls, other than the ones described obviously?
Click to expand...

Mate, I wouldnt worry too much, whenever I watch the American leagues all the pitchers throw are four-seam and two-seam fastballs and changeups. I am exaggerating a little but it seems like so many sports baseball has become conservative and risk-averse. I don't think many in Queensland are going to find it easy to hit a ball going at 130kh. Well done anyway, sounds like you're going a long way.

I don't really have any deliveries that are new as such. I have a wrong-wrong'un/legspinning flipper that I bowl by putting the ball between my thumb on the bottom and my ring-finger and pinky on the top. This makes it easier to get the angle right for me. It breaks quite a bit but it is very slow, maybe only 55 kh, and I am slow enough already. Its a very occasional ball.

I have a round-arm leg break that I call a big'un. I bowl it the same way you would throw a discus. It is very slow but spins furiously. On a reasonable track it will turn at nearly a sixty degree angle. Its hard to land but vaguely dangerous if I can land it somewhere within a jump of leg stump.

I am also trying to bowl a flatspinner/flying saucer ball, but with a slight amount of off spin bias. Basically this drifts from leg to off (quite a bit in fact) but then straightens after landing. This might be a good ball if I could get it right, because it looks for all money like breaking but doesnt.

Also, I have a quicker ball that I bowl by putting my middle finger behind the ball and pushing it out with that finger at the point of delivery. Not much of a ball as for me bowling quicker means going from 65 kh to 75 kh.

So I guess the answer is no, nothing good, anyway.
 
mystikiel said:
Mate, I wouldnt worry too much, whenever I watch the American leagues all the pitchers throw are four-seam and two-seam fastballs and changeups. I am exaggerating a little but it seems like so many sports baseball has become conservative and risk-averse. I don't think many in Queensland are going to find it easy to hit a ball going at 130kh. Well done anyway, sounds like you're going a long way.

I don't really have any deliveries that are new as such. I have a wrong-wrong'un/legspinning flipper that I bowl by putting the ball between my thumb on the bottom and my ring-finger and pinky on the top. This makes it easier to get the angle right for me. It breaks quite a bit but it is very slow, maybe only 55 kh, and I am slow enough already. Its a very occasional ball.

I have a round-arm leg break that I call a big'un. I bowl it the same way you would throw a discus. It is very slow but spins furiously. On a reasonable track it will turn at nearly a sixty degree angle. Its hard to land but vaguely dangerous if I can land it somewhere within a jump of leg stump.

I am also trying to bowl a flatspinner/flying saucer ball, but with a slight amount of off spin bias. Basically this drifts from leg to off (quite a bit in fact) but then straightens after landing. This might be a good ball if I could get it right, because it looks for all money like breaking but doesnt.

Also, I have a quicker ball that I bowl by putting my middle finger behind the ball and pushing it out with that finger at the point of delivery. Not much of a ball as for me bowling quicker means going from 65 kh to 75 kh.

So I guess the answer is no, nothing good, anyway.
Click to expand...

Mystikel are you the bloke on youtube I'm discussing this with?
 
Nice one, are you here in the UK or somewhere else? Sounds like you're an antipodean if you're getting ready for winter cricket. Good to have you on here, hope it'll be helpful.
 
mystikiel said:
Yes, Im in Australia (Queensland). Thanks for the nice words and all the info you put out there Dave.
Click to expand...

Mystikiel, you need to contact Boris (Off-spinner/Batsman) he's looking for other blokes that are Queenslanders, can't remember why, think he feels a bit isolated up there, it may be the experience of bowling and batting on artificial surfaces due to the climate?
 
Where abouts are you based Mystikiel? Just general area if you don't want to give up anything too specific on this terrible yet great invention we call the internet.

We do get a lot of artificial pitches here but it is quite annoying when the only turf wickets you get are all either green or completely grassless depending on whether we are in drought or not. Most of the time they are as if the outfield never stopped they are that green, plus by the end of the game the grass feels like it's grown upt to your ankles. Great for fast bowlers... not the best for anybody else.

Probably why only fast bowlers and very dominant attacking batsmen come out of Queensland, as it's the only way to play the fast bowlers with averages around about 10-15 usually.

You get more spin conducive pitchers where you are Mystikiel?
 
Im in Brisbane. I agree with you on the state of the turf wickets up here. I would rather play on Astroturf, at least it stays true and you do get a fair bit of turn off it. Bear in mind that I am older and the cricket I play is only one level above a bunch of guys having a casual hit in the park, none of us are anything spesh.

If we are playing on a turf wicket I will not get a look in, its pointless bowling a leg spinner on a potato field when medium pace bowlers can make merry on it. If we are playing on Astroturf I will bowl a bit, because if pace can't dismiss someone on an astroturf wicket before they get their eye in they're not going to be out to pace bowling for a while.
 
mystikiel said:
Im in Brisbane. I agree with you on the state of the turf wickets up here. I would rather play on Astroturf, at least it stays true and you do get a fair bit of turn off it. Bear in mind that I am older and the cricket I play is only one level above a bunch of guys having a casual hit in the park, none of us are anything spesh.

If we are playing on a turf wicket I will not get a look in, its pointless bowling a leg spinner on a potato field when medium pace bowlers can make merry on it. If we are playing on Astroturf I will bowl a bit, because if pace can't dismiss someone on an astroturf wicket before they get their eye in they're not going to be out to pace bowling for a while.
Click to expand...
I'm up in Gympie at the moment, but played most of my cricket on the Sunshine Coast (predominantely for Coolum, although I don't think they have a club anymore). I've only played about 8 games in Gympie, 5 of them being social games organised between a bunch of mates. On the coast there are some sandier and drier wickets that turn quite a bit, and playing at Maroochydore is great. They have a fully international class ground there that the Australian team has played practice games on in the past and they let A Graders out there quite a bit... great fun playing on a quality pitch and outfield.

We call the artificial turf Gabba Grass, which is really the brand name, but apparently they base the product they sell to the clubs around here on the Gabba's international wicket. I think that company is used over most of Queensland, not sure about other states. You're right about the not getting out part, batting on Gabba grass is infinitely easier. I reckon my average on Gabba grass would be more runs than I score in an entire season on turf wickets.

I find you generally only get decent purchase off them when they are newer. Older wickets get a bit 'shiny' and the ball skids. Unfortunately Gympie has needed replacement pitches for about 10 years now. Plus only of the grounds is built over an old rubbish tip so the ground is liable to sink in some places and grow in others. One time there was a sinkhole at about mid on. Very fun to field on :rolleyes:

What grounds do you play on in Brissy? I've played on a couple but interesting to see if they are better quality there than the coast.
 
Boris said:
I'm up in Gympie at the moment, but played most of my cricket on the Sunshine Coast (predominantely for Coolum, although I don't think they have a club anymore). I've only played about 8 games in Gympie, 5 of them being social games organised between a bunch of mates. On the coast there are some sandier and drier wickets that turn quite a bit, and playing at Maroochydore is great. They have a fully international class ground there that the Australian team has played practice games on in the past and they let A Graders out there quite a bit... great fun playing on a quality pitch and outfield.

We call the artificial turf Gabba Grass, which is really the brand name, but apparently they base the product they sell to the clubs around here on the Gabba's international wicket. I think that company is used over most of Queensland, not sure about other states. You're right about the not getting out part, batting on Gabba grass is infinitely easier. I reckon my average on Gabba grass would be more runs than I score in an entire season on turf wickets.

I find you generally only get decent purchase off them when they are newer. Older wickets get a bit 'shiny' and the ball skids. Unfortunately Gympie has needed replacement pitches for about 10 years now. Plus only of the grounds is built over an old rubbish tip so the ground is liable to sink in some places and grow in others. One time there was a sinkhole at about mid on. Very fun to field on :rolleyes:

What grounds do you play on in Brissy? I've played on a couple but interesting to see if they are better quality there than the coast.
Click to expand...

Theres a ground at Toowong that we play on but it is rain damaged now, and there is one near Kalinga park in Clayfield that is better, but it is hard to get a game there. I think the good grounds are probably better than what you get up the Coast, but the rest is probably no better.

With Astroturf wickets, I find that as they get on they get plenty of sand and dirt infill embedded in them. Sometimes this is deliberate, they put sand infill in them to try and mitigate the excessive bounce of these wickets, but most of the time its inadvertent. I think the more they fill up with sand the less they turn. Maybe I should take a vacuum cleaner and see if it improves things :)

One good thing that the Council did recently was construct some nets at Herston park near the Royal Brisbane Hospital. They are closed in with Astroturf wickets, open to the public. You go down there and bowl a bit on weekends and all sorts of people come up, even a couple of spinners here and there.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top