Line and length without spin?

[someblokecalleddave]

Line and length without spin?

I've posted this idea up before in the wrist spin thread but I want someone to either try this out or comment on it from a voice of experience.

I think we all know that when wrist spinners (AKA Leg Spinners) start out they tend to throw a lot of wides and plenty of balls with ropey lengths, but before they even started to bowl wrist spin could they even bowl a seam up ball on a good line and length?

I'm proposing that if you're an aspiring wrist spinner that's having trouble with your line and length you should take a break from trying to spin the ball and look at your basic technique.

Bowl seam up over a few practice sessions - still bowl slowish but just see if you can bowl accurately. Put a coke can on the off-stump (4th stump line) about 3.75 mtrs from the stumps and see how easily you can hit it?

I reckon that if you can't do this fairly easily bowling seam up or at least get the ball in that kind of area you've potentially got basic flaws in your technique.

Does that make sense - or am I talking complete crap?

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Line and length without spin?

this method may have some merit. for example, if i bowl with my normal leg spin action but just dont spin the ball i can land it pretty much where i want, give or take 6 inches in line and a foot either way in length. i reckon i could probably hit the stumps (or put the ball over the stumps if it bounces higher) 70% of the time.

however, add spin into the mix and im nowhere near that accurate or consistent. i could spend a month bowling without spin, but it still wouldnt help my accuracy when i spin the ball. so whilst i think it could help bowlers that lack the basic accuracy in the first place, it wont help those who just have an inconsistent spinning action. my own issues are with timing, and the fact that my action is unforgiving. the only way i can bowl more accurately is to take a lot of pace off the ball, maybe 30-40%, because it gives me more margin for error on my timing.

 

[doctortran]

Re: Line and length without spin?

Why don't I add one more connection. If leg spinners are like fast bowlers, then aren't people who propel round spherical objects from their arms similar to those who shoot round bullets out of guns?

And what do archers, professional shooters -- all precision sport athletes do? What is the connection?

Stillness.

If you're trying to aim at a target whether its snooker, golf, archery, shooting, every professional athlete is as still as possible until they trigger (like a gun) a movement that sets off the projectile.

So try the idea of stillness in your bowling. Keep your upper body as still as possible as you walk in. Keep everything still, everything towards the batsman, and nothing moving away from your target. Then bowl it and I promise you improved bowling accuracy.

If you end up with Shane Warne accuracy -- mind giving me a percentage??

P.S. Hey Jim -- how's the speed of your leggies these days? Better??

 

[macca]

Re: Line and length without spin?

Why don't I add one more connection. If leg spinners are like fast bowlers, then aren't people who propel round spherical objects from their arms similar to those who shoot round bullets out of guns?

And what do archers, professional shooters -- all precision sport athletes do? What is the connection?

Stillness.

If you're trying to aim at a target whether its snooker, golf, archery, shooting, every professional athlete is as still as possible until they trigger (like a gun) a movement that sets off the projectile.

So try the idea of stillness in your bowling. Keep your upper body as still as possible as you walk in. Keep everything still, everything towards the batsman, and nothing moving away from your target. Then bowl it and I promise you improved bowling accuracy.

If you end up with Shane Warne accuracy -- mind giving me a percentage??

P.S. Hey Jim -- how's the speed of your leggies these days? Better??

I am always telling my young bloke when legspinning. Head Still in the approach. Of course as you walk in the head bobs , but it is the concept of head still and watch the target to draw the stroke, usually a drive.
That was one of the keys to warnes approach. Head still.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Line and length without spin?

P.S. Hey Jim -- how's the speed of your leggies these days? Better??

considerably quicker! lacking accuracy and consistency and with a ton of new issues, but definitely faster. i havent got any video to compare, and have never properly clocked my bowling either before or after i made alterations to my action. but if i had to guess, it was around 40mph before, and probably nearer to 50mph now, with the occasional quicker ball.

i tried adding the leg drive that you suggested previously, its hard to tell if i have or not, i found that pronouncing it didnt help. what i do notice is that my right shin is the first part of my body to ache now, meaning im following through considerably harder with my trailing leg and its hitting the deck harder. so theres more effort in my delivery for sure. im definitely transferring the weight harder and faster.

my arms are still kinda all over the place. ive got my leading arm pointing upward more (with the bicep curl), i need more regular practice to find the happy medium though, it causes me timing issues at present. the UK weather is the problem there, once i can get back to practicing several times per week without weather interruptions then it should click. hopefully.

overall the advice you gave before had a positive impact though. all my problems at present are weather related (either lack of practice, or wet net surfaces and no turn lol)

P.S. the stillness thing is something ive heard mentioned before, but never really given much thought to. il have to try that out. thinking about my approach i do fix my eyes on my target, but im not really sure what i do in my delivery. i have on occasion had sessions where i drop my head at the point of delivery, and it causes me huge issues. i wonder if i can refine my "posture" even when im bowling ok though for further improvements. certainly worth a try.

 

[Yablett]

Re: Line and length without spin?

My thoughts are that gaining accuracy without spin is fine however, the only way that this would be beneficial is to continue to release the ball with the legspin/wrist action but with little side spin. Bowling the ball seam-up is completely different. Releasing the ball in one direction (at the batsman) and attempting to impart spin on the ball in a different direction and out of the back of the hand is very different to ‘seam-up’ fingers down the seam, front of the hand etc.. I would think that it would be very hard to do one to improve the other

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Line and length without spin?

My thoughts are that gaining accuracy without spin is fine however, the only way that this would be beneficial is to continue to release the ball with the legspin/wrist action but with little side spin. Bowling the ball seam-up is completely different. Releasing the ball in one direction (at the batsman) and attempting to impart spin on the ball in a different direction and out of the back of the hand is very different to ‘seam-up’ fingers down the seam, front of the hand etc.. I would think that it would be very hard to do one to improve the other

youd still have to at least maintain the same bowling grip. when i do it i keep my fingers in the same place as i do for a leg break, i just dont flick my wrist. as you say, if you bowl it seam up then its not even comparable to the leg spin technique.

 

[Yablett]

Re: Line and length without spin?

youd still have to at least maintain the same bowling grip. when i do it i keep my fingers in the same place as i do for a leg break, i just dont flick my wrist. as you say, if you bowl it seam up then its not even comparable to the leg spin technique.

I’m a finger spinner Jim so I don’t completely understand the mechanics of wrist spin however, isn’t that then really practicing a different delivery? I know from experience that when I'm struggling for form then I need to work on my ‘release’ mainly, off only a couple of steps and bowl a lot slower (I have a long run-up for an offie)and get the feeling right in my hand at the point of release, then work back from there. Once that release is familiar every delivery, Its much easier to self asses the rest of the action to work out whats happening, flat front foot, no follow through etc etc as these will all corrupt the ‘release’ when back at normal run-up and arm speed…

 

[Yablett]

Re: Line and length without spin?

What I mean is, even with the minimal side spin isn't this still a variation on the 'normal' delivery?, isn't it better to just get the release right with the normal 'stock ball' amount of spin?

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Line and length without spin?

yeh its definitely a different delivery method. i dont think this is to be used on a per-session basis to find rhythm. i think Dave is hypothesising this as a complete back-to-basics approach to finding accuracy. e.g. if you cant even bowl line and length without trying to impart spin, what hope have you got when youre spinning the ball at 90 degrees to the release direction? lol.

it certainly makes sense to me, in that il bet any accurate spin bowler can also bowl accurately without spin. if i want to find accuracy in my leg spin bowling then i too slow my action right down and remove variables, then work my way back up to a full effort delivery. removing revs on the ball never features into the equation, i guess im scared that if i take revs off il never get them back lol. it kills my accuracy though, the few times ive tried bowling with fewer revs ive been a lot more accurate. i just refuse to embrace it. id rather bowl badly for a year whilst i find accuracy than simplify the action for the sake of accuracy. that, to me, is the mindset of a pace bowler and not a spinner.

but i think this idea could still hold merit for those who just cant find any kind of accuracy whilst spinning the ball. its an easy thing for anyone to try, just to see for themselves. id imagine an off spinner would be more accurate than a leg spinner of similar ability though as the action is more closely related. a leggies action is vastly different to a seam bowler.

 

[Yablett]

Re: Line and length without spin?

ahh yes, I am also a true believer in the “grip it and rip it” theory.. I sacrificed basically a whole season as a young bloke, getting no overs on a sat because I was trying to get more spin but I couldn’t land them… But spinning the crap out of it for a year in the nets meant that I could make the step up to A-grade (Only Local Park Stuff) the next year and didn’t look back.. If I had just kept bowling the same old slow straight stuff I probably would have given up bowling spin all together..

 

[macca]

Re: Line and length without spin?

yeh its definitely a different delivery method. i dont think this is to be used on a per-session basis to find rhythm. i think Dave is hypothesising this as a complete back-to-basics approach to finding accuracy. e.g. if you cant even bowl line and length without trying to impart spin, what hope have you got when youre spinning the ball at 90 degrees to the release direction? lol.

it certainly makes sense to me, in that il bet any accurate spin bowler can also bowl accurately without spin. if i want to find accuracy in my leg spin bowling then i too slow my action right down and remove variables, then work my way back up to a full effort delivery. removing revs on the ball never features into the equation, i guess im scared that if i take revs off il never get them back lol. it kills my accuracy though, the few times ive tried bowling with fewer revs ive been a lot more accurate. i just refuse to embrace it. id rather bowl badly for a year whilst i find accuracy than simplify the action for the sake of accuracy. that, to me, is the mindset of a pace bowler and not a spinner.

but i think this idea could still hold merit for those who just cant find any kind of accuracy whilst spinning the ball. its an easy thing for anyone to try, just to see for themselves. id imagine an off spinner would be more accurate than a leg spinner of similar ability though as the action is more closely related. a leggies action is vastly different to a seam bowler.

I find bowling seam, leggies or offspinners so different I feel like a different bowler for each style. Giving my age away when i bowl seam i picture myself as a slow dk lillee although i dont look anything like it and when i do legbreaks i visualise , even after all the years , Terry Jenner, when i do offspin i imagine mallett and have this picture of what that looks like. I dont think i could mix them up. Of course i dont think this consciously often but it is there at the back of my mind. But a good delivery for a legspinner is that disguised seamer that looks like a legbreak that some call a 'slider', which a lot of people arrive at themselves as a variation as kids in the backyard.
Grimmett bowled seamers and swingers that looked like his stock legbreaks with a last minute conjurers sleight of hand flick of his wrist , that even don bradman could not pick. This he did on non turning wickets early in tests as well as loads of topspinners.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Line and length without spin?

My thoughts are that gaining accuracy without spin is fine however, the only way that this would be beneficial is to continue to release the ball with the legspin/wrist action but with little side spin. Bowling the ball seam-up is completely different. Releasing the ball in one direction (at the batsman) and attempting to impart spin on the ball in a different direction and out of the back of the hand is very different to ‘seam-up’ fingers down the seam, front of the hand etc.. I would think that it would be very hard to do one to improve the other

This makes sense. I currently release/grip the ball in 3 distinctive ways, all using the 2 fingers up, 2 fingers down grip with the 3rd finger very much on the seam. With all these different deliveries the ball leaves the hand with the last point of contact being the 3rd finger - so all in essence are seam across deliveries. My failing is that I don't flick the wrist in any of the deliveries in the manner that would give you the Big Leg - Break and that's something I'm constantly working on, because I find with the use of the wrist flick I lose my accuracy. But with the 3 variations that I have with a stable wrist but with a pronounced release off the fingers I can still produce a lot of turn off the wicket, but with very good accuracy. So in essence what I'm trying to say is if you're getting nowhere really trying to flick the ball, go for a simplified approach - still using the wrist spinners grip but just ensuring it's released off the 3rd finger?

 

[TonyM]

Re: Line and length without spin?

Interesting discussion and good to see the split of the bowling forum already paying dividends.

Dave, I have gone for the exact opposite approach to a young lad I have just started with this winter - he can spin the ball OK but lacks any real contol so I am working on anything and everything within his bowling action apart from his hand and wrist as I dont want to 'throw out the baby with the bath water' - not saying this is the correct approach but I just dont want to discourage him spinning the ball and would rather work on other aspects of his technique (front arm, shoulder rotation, head position - as I said everything!) that will show him some improvement and give him some easy 'wins'.

I would agree with others that have said going back to basics (bowling from the base position) is worth a go and in fact has less of an impact on spin bowlers than the quicks who often need a quicker rhythm before their bodies feel comfortable

 

[Liz Ward]

Re: Line and length without spin?

Coaching spin... especially wrist spin... is probably one of the most difficult jobs for a coach; even if the coach himself is a spinner. Sometimes, especially if the coach himself is a spinner.

I have gone on, and on, and on about this in the past so will not bore you with it all again, but felt I had to respond to Tony's post. Sometimes, I come across somebody who brings tears to my eyes and it really gives me a warm feeling.

The problem is, most young people who are 'natural' spinners, often are due to their physiology and anatomy. Technique plays little part. I have had the following two comments on the same 'natural', successful off/leg spinner:

Level IV coach: "I don't know how he does it... but don't change it!"
Level II coach: "I don't know how he does it... but I can improve it."

Of course, after a session with the Level II coach, he never bowled spin again.

You really need to know all the why?, what?, how? and wherefores of the bowler's wrist mechanics before you start even thinking about changing it. The first place to look to improve the action is his posture. Personally, I would start with the feet and work up, but would certainly include front arm, shoulder rotation, head position etc. Of course, as I would start with the feet, I would not take the action back to base.

This, however, is different to teaching a non-spinner to spin, but my advice, ALWAYS, is not to mess with a natural spinner's wrist.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Line and length without spin?

So, let me establish what you're suggesting here Liz. As I read, it you're saying that if you can rip the ball from the wrist giving it a big flick or however you may do it - as long as you turn the ball off the wicket, you shouldn't ever change any aspect of that part of your action (Wrist)? You're then suggesting that it's almost certain that the cause of the inaccuracy would another aspect to your bowling?

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Line and length without spin?

its funny this thread should re-emerge this week, as i had a (disastrous) practice yesterday for an hour, before giving up because i was bowling so badly (thats another story), and noticed something relating to this thread.

ive never tried bowling without spin, as ive discussed with Dave in quite some length before, my opinion is that spinning the ball as hard as possible is the key to wrist spin bowling, and thus you should never bowl without maximum revs on the ball. certainly not when practicing at least.

however, in frustration, and also for tactical purposes, i have bowled an occasional (maybe 3 or 4 in total) seam delivery. mostly as a "slider" to try and catch a batsman off guard, but also in anger yesterday i bowled a proper seam delivery (it was an in-swining yorker as well, maybe i should be a seamer!!) to release some frustration by abusing my upper body lol.

anyway, i find that if i bowl anything straight, it follows the exact same tendancy as my leg breaks, to stray to the leg side. which says to me that my leg side tendancy is entirely an aspect of my overall action. so for that reason alone, it may prove useful to bowl a handful of non-spun deliveries. but aside from that i dont think it has any purpose. it might even just be coincidence that my seam deliveries do the same as my leg spin ones.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Line and length without spin?

So, let me establish what you're suggesting here Liz. As I read, it you're saying that if you can rip the ball from the wrist giving it a big flick or however you may do it - as long as you turn the ball off the wicket, you shouldn't ever change any aspect of that part of your action (Wrist)? You're then suggesting that it's almost certain that the cause of the inaccuracy would another aspect to your bowling?

having had some (excellent) advice from Liz on my bowling action, i think it is more a case of not changing the natural action or the way someone spins the ball, rather altering anything that may cause injuries. and if there are inherent problems causing inaccuracy, they are generally related to bad posture/mechanics anyway (certainly in my case it seems that way). and fixing those issues (which arent altering the natural action in any way, just subtle changes) will sort most/all of the problems without harming the bowler or their method.

if you watch videos of my before and after, the differences are tiny. to the average person they may not even tell them apart. its the tiny subtleties that make the difference. there is no real change in my natural action.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Line and length without spin?

Yeah you're probably right, the thing I notice it with the most is my wrist and fingers, as I'm constantly experimenting with subtle differences to change the way the balls spins. This is especially obvious with regards the big flick action, some days it works exceptionally well, but then between bowling the last ball and going back to pick all the balls up and starting again it's gone, it feels like I'm doing the same thing, but the ball just doesn't turn in the same way. I'm always amazed how you seem to have an acute awareness of what your wrist is doing through your action and you seem to be aware that you're producing a ball that turns one way or another in seemingly small increments that amount to 33 degrees or less!

 

[Liz Ward]

Re: Line and length without spin?

So, let me establish what you're suggesting here Liz. As I read, it you're saying that if you can rip the ball from the wrist giving it a big flick or however you may do it - as long as you turn the ball off the wicket, you shouldn't ever change any aspect of that part of your action (Wrist)? You're then suggesting that it's almost certain that the cause of the inaccuracy would another aspect to your bowling?

Absolutely Dave, and Jim puts it so much better than I tried .

Of course, you know, that I would change anything that potentially causes injury but I have never [yet] seen anything in the wrist of a spinner that will do this. Even with RSI, it is still usually somewhere else in the arm culpable. I may ask a spinner not to grip so tightly if I could see medial/lateral epicondylitis rearing, but again, this is not in the wrist.

The same biomechanical malfunction that can cause injury also affects pace and accuracy... foot position, body rotation, follow through etc. and correcting the body to prevent injury also improves pace and accuracy.

This is all regardless of the wrist. There are many conditions that affect the way the wrist mobilises... dyspraxia being only one and more often than not, the spinner does not even know that they have a condition. Unless you understand these conditions, you should never try to change a 'natural' spinner in this area. You will probably find it is more to do with when and where they release.

This is definitely a case of what works for one will probably not work for others; there is a high case of uniqueness when it comes to spinners' wrists.