New Variation

[Teesra]

New Variation

Technically speaking it's not new but according to my research it has only been used in First Class cricket. And it hasn't been used after the 1950's.

Basically it's just a variation of the orthodox off spin grip. Instead of using the index and middle finger to impart spin, you use the middle and the third finger. I think using the middle finger will impart more revs, and it may make it bounce more and go quicker through the air.

The orthodox grip:

The "new" variation:

You could also put the index finger on top of your middle finger for even more bounce and spin.

I originally found this when I was researching about the Iverson-Gleeson grip, and came across this web page.

According to the site, it was used mainly by Bob Appleyard, Bruce Yardley, and Colin Miller. I don't think I've ever seen or heard of anyone using this grip in international matches.

What do you think of this? Anyone tried it/want to try it?

Too bad I'll have to wait till December to experiment with it

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: New Variation

The top image looks like the 'Iverson Gleeson' grip/technique?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: New Variation

It's that 'Palmheads' bloke again, he's got quite a bit of stuff on the internet, but is pretty 'Low profile' and post quite a bit of Old Skool stuff but doesn't seem that interested in getting into discussions about his research. Useful stuff though and quite in-depth. I think he's a Kiwi.

 

[Boris]

Re: New Variation

I've sort of tried this grip before while experimenting, but never really thought much of it, felt a bit awkward. I have fairly large hands, not the biggest but definitely enough for almost all variations and I have a bit of trouble working out how to hold it in that way. Mind you I don't like the orthodox way either, I use that as a variation ball actually.

After a couple of years bowling offies sort of part time (well I was never any good) I switched to this grip and have been bowling as a front-line spinner ever since:

It's pretty unorthodox as you can see, but it generates a hell of a lot more revs on the ball. I don't think it drifts quite as much, and takes a bit of getting used to to land it on a good length (and for that matter to not bowl it too fast and give it no flight), but it turns more than you'd expect and at the same time you can vary the amount of spin and speed with the undetectable movement of one finger.

In case you are wondering how it works, you pull the first finger back around the top of the ball as fast as you can at the same time as 'opening the door knob'. I also have taken to adding some downwards wrist motion into it to get more spin, I don't know where the idea of finger spinning including only fingers came from.

If you put all three of these deliveries together (Orthodox, your 'new variation' and my 'big turner') I think you have started a pretty decent arsenal. I like to bowl the orthodox variation for the drift for a long period of time and then chuck in the bigger spinner for a longer period of time and suddenly switch back so they never quite get used to the same ball over and over. Sort of like having two stock balls. Add this one in as a slight variation and I've got myself another ball.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: New Variation

Boris, that grip is like a reverse leg spin grip. my off spin grip (which i sometimes use for the flipper, or sometimes i just throw in an off break to see if the batsman can pick it amongst my leg spin) is halfway between yours and the conventional method. my first finger isnt completely sideways down the seam, but its halfway between. i use my thumb quite dominantly in the grip as well though. it generates vastly more revs than just using 2 fingers.

i had a try the other day to see if i could grip the ball with the middle finger over and it felt horribly uncomfortable and generated no spin at all for me. guess its one of those quirky methods that only some people can make work. ive never been able to get the Iverson-Gleeson grip generating large amounts of spin either, my hands are just best suited to a conventional leg spin grip.

 

[Boris]

Re: New Variation

Since you brought up the thumb, I use that bowling my top spinners or in the nets while I'm still practicing it, my doosra variant. I use an orthodox off spinner grip but with my thumb underneath the ball and flick out with it. This generates more spin, but more importantly you can bend your wrist into the odd (and in most cases impossible) positons that those two balls require you to be in. This way it isn't a struggle to use your fingers and bring your wrist through behind the ball when you can't physically move them in that position, instead just flicking your thumb.

So it's kind of like what you do with your leg break, top spinner and googly, how it's pretty much the same delivery just with your hand facing a different direction. That doesn't work with off spin because it requires your wrist to be bent 180 degrees and brought through while dislocating your shoulder to gain spin. That's why I use my thumb there, probably as you do normally, otherwise I don't think it gains enough spin for a more stock delivery.

Anyway, back on topic. I had a bit of a bowl in the indoor cricket centre as there was some rain about and saw the opportunity, so I was using indoor balls on the carpet type indoor surface so I can't really judge spin/drift etc correctly, but I think that grip has some use if you are low on ideas, most likely in a limited overs match.

You seem to more push it out with that grip and it has no flight at all, you compensate it for spin, which there isn't that much of, but it's also side and I found to get it to work properly, a bit of backspin as well (release it with the back of your hand facing away from the bowler) so it was quite skiddy.

I think if I find I can get this ball alright in the nets I might use it in the death overs of a 40 over match, just the sort of ball that creates dots. I don't think it's good enough for a wicket or to use more than once in a match though.

 

[Teesra]

Re: New Variation

Interesting grip there. I can definitely see why it would turn more than the ball bowled with the orthodox off-break grip. Another grip added to my "To Try" list. I'm not quite sure I understand your doosra though. Could you post a picture? Does it require a lot of flexibility?

As far as the Iverson-Gleeson grip is concerned, did you try bowling it at slow-medium pace and giving it absolutely no flight? I think that's how Mendis, Iverson, and Gleeson - the only ones who have used this grip - have bowled. The turn isn't huge, possibly just a little more than the width of the bat.

This is probably the maximum turn you'd get with the Iverson-Gleeson. See the one Mendis bowls to Rahul Dravid in the first video for example:

YouTube - Ajantha Mendis 8 wickets on test debut (4 in each innings)
YouTube - Ajantha Mendis - 6 for 13 - Asia Cup Final Sri Lanka v India

Too bad I can't find any videos of Jack Iverson and John Gleeson bowling. Would be great to see their bowling action and run-up and how much turn they got.

I also think that perhaps the grip I mentioned in the first post would be more useful to those who bowl like Mendis/Iverson/Gleeson. I'm definitely sure that using the middle and third fingers would produce more turn at slow-medium pace.

On a side note, it appears that almost everyone on this forum is addicted to leg spin

 

[Boris]

Re: New Variation

I don't really bowl anything that could be considered 'orthodox', I've varied everything to really suit me so if you try my methods you might have to play around with them.

I've got two balls that spin like a doosra, my Carrom ball variation (actually have another thread on that, not going to bother finding it but you can if you want) and my doosra variation.

The Carrom ball one looks as such:

You flick out with the middle finger (the fingernail is in contact with the seam, straight up and down it) while at the same time pulling the thumb back into the palm. To add extra spin you drag down the first finger and push up with the third finger. The seam should stay up and down and face towards second slip, the same sort of thing as a leg break. It's sort of a cross between the Carrom ball and the Iverson/Gleeson method. It's pretty difficult to pick, and if they do pick it you can simply turn the ball to face leg slip and swap things around and you have another off break variation, so when they think they are getting the 'doosra' they are really getting the same old, and it's very hard to distinguish between the two.

I've given this one the affectionate name "Flick Grip":

Sorry for the shocking photography, it's pretty hard to take pictures while bending at strange angles . Imagine that the hand in that picture is upright, not on a 45 degree angle.

All it is is simply the orthodox grip with the thumb curled underneath the ball. Now if you open the doorknob while at the same time flicking the thumb out, you can get a heck of a lot more rotations.

Problem is that it's pretty harsh on your thumb and also as no flight and takes a lot of practice to get right (I'm not bowling it in matches yet).

What I do use it for, though is the top spinner and the doosra. The top spinner uses the orthodox grip, you just bowl it with the seam running up and down vertically and out the top of the hand. This is pretty difficult though, having to have your wrist bent like that while trying to get rotations on the ball. So many times have I dragged it down short and wide because of the twisting and bending. The doosra is even worse, just picture trying to push the back of the hand at the batsman with an orthodox grip in the attempt to get the seam running at second slip.

If you can manage to get your wrist into the right position, that's a very good start. But from there it's pretty much impossible to impart spin (unless you have joints like Murali), or in the case of the top spinner, it's pretty hard to get a decent amount. Even if you do manage to impart spin it's unlikely you'll be able to pitch it more than halfway up the pitch and you'll have the accuracy of a drunken ape flinging poo. Having your hand with the flick grip allows your wrist to get into place and then your thumb can do the rest, just a quick flick outwards and you have spin, hopefully heading in the right direction.

So pretty much if you practice getting that wrist through without having to dislocate your shoulder, you can use this to gain the spin you want. To get the wrist in the right position I've worked on changing my overall action for the one ball, making the loop I make with my bowling arm a very elongated one and then releasing much later, almost in my follow through itself.

Does my explanation make sense?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: New Variation

Good to see the Finger Spinners having some productive discussions going on here!

 

[chrisbell]

Re: New Variation

Good to see the Finger Spinners having some productive discussions going on here!

I never thought they could generate so many variations or that they cared about them!

 

[Jim2109]

Re: New Variation

I never thought they could generate so many variations or that they cared about them!

i dont think any spin bowler would ever not care about revs (even negative finger spinners!), without spin youre just a slow bowler. you look at the best off spinners in world cricket and they are all the ones that rip the ball hard, turn it big, and arent afraid to pitch it up well outside the off stump. i reckon a good finger spinner can probably generate about 70% of the revs that a good leg spinner can. bear in mind the kind of revs that Shane Warne could generate, if you can get even 50% of that with finger spin then youll generate formidable turn. Graeme Swann for example.

 

[Boris]

Re: New Variation

I never thought they could generate so many variations or that they cared about them!

(Good) Finger spinners possibly have more variations than leggies for one simple reason - if you put the best leg break ever and the best off break ever... the leg break will always win.

Off spin is tainted with negativity because it is easier to do. Therefore batsmen take it up part time and bowlers who can't bowl anything else pretend to bowl it. A captain sees what happens (inevitably balls flying back over the bowlers head) and presumes that finger spin bowling is useless.

Just think though, because finger spin bowling is so much easier, it takes just as much training, if not more, as a leg spinner to get to the same skill level. It's simply not as effective, so to make it effective you really really have to work hard on your game.

Then if you are actually a serious finger spinner you have to convince a captain to bowl it. If your captain doesn't like spin (as many don't) then being the 'worst' of the two forms certainly doesn't help your case.

Especially at club level (it's different higher up from that), off spinners can often be more effective than a leggie, for the fact that accuracy is the main thing that gets wickets at that level. Your run of the mill club leggie will still be refining the accuracy, if they already have then they should be playing at higher levels.

It's the variations that an offie must refine instead to progress higher, but there is a difference in the term 'variation' for an off spinner in comparison to the leg spinning counterpart. A variation can simply be not putting as many revs on the ball. It can be the exact same ball just landed on a different line. Bowl the same ball for 3 overs straight and then toss one wide and full with a gully and short cover and see what happens. Leg spinners hardly call it a variation, but I know I practice bowling things as simple as that in the nets (19 balls exactly the same with the 20th being a different spot). As these are the main weapons of the off spinner, as you can hardly out spin a batsman, as are the leg spinner's, I refer to them as variations. As such the off spinner has many, many more variations than the leg spinner, but all of them equally as ineffective and you need much more patience before one may just work.

Lately I've gotten to the point where I can spin and land a ball exactly where I want it 9/10 times, now I'm refining the variations. I haven't been playing consistently for a couple of years now due to many things so I haven't seen what I can do in a match situation, but I sure haven't stopped practising, so in the next couple of years I'm hoping to boost myself up a couple of grades. I've been practising a lot of these wacky ones, as they are particularly helpful for the limited overs form (seemingly the only thing I've played when I do play). So if anybody has any other wacky ideas they can come up with just sitting in their chair in front of the screen, tell me and I'll try it!

i dont think any spin bowler would ever not care about revs (even negative finger spinners!), without spin youre just a slow bowler. you look at the best off spinners in world cricket and they are all the ones that rip the ball hard, turn it big, and arent afraid to pitch it up well outside the off stump. i reckon a good finger spinner can probably generate about 70% of the revs that a good leg spinner can. bear in mind the kind of revs that Shane Warne could generate, if you can get even 50% of that with finger spin then youll generate formidable turn. Graeme Swann for example.

Swann isn't really a turner of the ball, though. He and Hauritz are very alike, work on the principle of constant accuracy and patience to tie a batsman down. They both occasionally get big turn, but I wouldn't say they have anywhere near the revs on the ball that any leg spinner could get.

 

[macca]

Re: New Variation

So if anybody has any other wacky ideas they can come up with just sitting in their chair in front of the screen, tell me and I'll try it!

I reckon you could do lots with that thumb flicking topspinner you were describing before. I dont know why more offspinners dont use the thumb. One of the all time great offspinners, i cant remember who, Trumble? way back anyway he used the thumb to impart the spin as it was his strongest digit.

Its a bit like grimmetts proto flipper , where he flicked the ball with his thumb like he was playing marbles with a cricket ball. If you vary your wrist can you change the way it spins? You sound like you are bowling topspinners with this method, probably offbreaks too?

 

[Boris]

Re: New Variation

I reckon you could do lots with that thumb flicking topspinner you were describing before. I dont know why more offspinners dont use the thumb. One of the all time great offspinners, i cant remember who, Trumble? way back anyway he used the thumb to impart the spin as it was his strongest digit.

Its a bit like grimmetts proto flipper , where he flicked the ball with his thumb like he was playing marbles with a cricket ball. If you vary your wrist can you change the way it spins? You sound like you are bowling topspinners with this method, probably offbreaks too?

Pretty much with this delivery, wherever you point your wrist is where it's going to go, if you can get your wrist into the position in the first place. The last year or so I've looked up and completed a number of different finger, wrist and shoulder (although the shoulder was mostly for physio purposes) flexibility exercises so I could even start thinking about it.

I think the reason more offies don't use it is that it's a bit unwieldy and painful. Just try flicking it between your hands and you can feel that it puts a lot of pressure on the nail of the thumb if you go for maximum revs, do that for a number of balls straight and you've got yourself a sore thumb. Others may do it a different way to me that incorporates the side of the thumb, but I haven't worked out how to do that yet, my accuracy turns into either landing on the pitch or not. Could just be a personal preference.

Also it's pretty inaccurate, and as it doesn't develop half the spin as a leg break it's hardly worth practising it until you get it right (like you do with the inaccuracies of a leg break) when accuracy is your weapon.

I've bowled it a couple of times as an off break variant (one of about four I have that all spin the same way, just slightly differently), but it's best with the top spinner and doosra (variant). Like with wrist spin, if you point the back of your hand at the batsman you get the 'other one'.

I've never understood the orthodox off spin grip for the reasons said a couple of posts ago - it's pretty much just slow bowling.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: New Variation

if you havent already tried it, then perhaps try using your thumb in the way that a leggie does for their flipper. with the off spin grip youve got the first and middle fingers spread across the top of the ball, you simply add the thumb underneath, bring your top fingers closer together, and use the finger clicking action.

my "off spinning flipper" isnt as effective in recent times as it was at one point last autumn. but when i had it working, and was landing it on the seam, it would turn as big as my leg breaks. pitching about a foot outside off stump and turning past leg stump. you can generate serious revs with it, and because it has primarily back spin it grips big and stays fairly low.

ive never understood why more offies havent adopted this grip. but maybe its because those who can just bowl leg spin in the first place lol. off spin has the reputation, as you have basically said, as being the easy safe spin option, so most people who bowl it are a bit dibbly dobbly, and just bowl controlling line and length with spin as a secondary factor. whereas most leggies are obsessed with spin, and accuracy and consistency are the secondary elements to the action. i couldnt care less if i have an average of 50, so long as my strike rate is in single figures. most offies would be horrified at that prospect lol.

 

[macca]

Re: New Variation

Pretty much with this delivery, wherever you point your wrist is where it's going to go, if you can get your wrist into the position in the first place. The last year or so I've looked up and completed a number of different finger, wrist and shoulder (although the shoulder was mostly for physio purposes) flexibility exercises so I could even start thinking about it.

Hey Boris, where did you learn it from. Did someone show you or did you work it out yourself ?

I use it mainly for off break throwdowns. I found it in old book from 1890,s as well !

 

[Boris]

Re: New Variation

Hey Boris, where did you learn it from. Did someone show you or did you work it out yourself ?

I use it mainly for off break throwdowns. I found it in old book from 1890,s as well !

It was just a logical progression for me, everything I've done has been just me fiddling with things myself. I've never taken to deliveries I've either learnt about or been taught, I seem to be quite unorthodox in my release so nothing has ever really worked.

I started doing it occasionally in the nets trying to work out why the thumb was left out.

 

[chrisbell]

Re: New Variation

(Good) Finger spinners possibly have more variations than leggies for one simple reason - if you put the best leg break ever and the best off break ever... the leg break will always win.

Off spin is tainted with negativity because it is easier to do. Therefore batsmen take it up part time and bowlers who can't bowl anything else pretend to bowl it. A captain sees what happens (inevitably balls flying back over the bowlers head) and presumes that finger spin bowling is useless.

Just think though, because finger spin bowling is so much easier, it takes just as much training, if not more, as a leg spinner to get to the same skill level. It's simply not as effective, so to make it effective you really really have to work hard on your game.

Then if you are actually a serious finger spinner you have to convince a captain to bowl it. If your captain doesn't like spin (as many don't) then being the 'worst' of the two forms certainly doesn't help your case.

Especially at club level (it's different higher up from that), off spinners can often be more effective than a leggie, for the fact that accuracy is the main thing that gets wickets at that level. Your run of the mill club leggie will still be refining the accuracy, if they already have then they should be playing at higher levels.

It's the variations that an offie must refine instead to progress higher, but there is a difference in the term 'variation' for an off spinner in comparison to the leg spinning counterpart. A variation can simply be not putting as many revs on the ball. It can be the exact same ball just landed on a different line. Bowl the same ball for 3 overs straight and then toss one wide and full with a gully and short cover and see what happens. Leg spinners hardly call it a variation, but I know I practice bowling things as simple as that in the nets (19 balls exactly the same with the 20th being a different spot). As these are the main weapons of the off spinner, as you can hardly out spin a batsman, as are the leg spinner's, I refer to them as variations. As such the off spinner has many, many more variations than the leg spinner, but all of them equally as ineffective and you need much more patience before one may just work.

Lately I've gotten to the point where I can spin and land a ball exactly where I want it 9/10 times, now I'm refining the variations. I haven't been playing consistently for a couple of years now due to many things so I haven't seen what I can do in a match situation, but I sure haven't stopped practising, so in the next couple of years I'm hoping to boost myself up a couple of grades. I've been practising a lot of these wacky ones, as they are particularly helpful for the limited overs form (seemingly the only thing I've played when I do play). So if anybody has any other wacky ideas they can come up with just sitting in their chair in front of the screen, tell me and I'll try it!



Swann isn't really a turner of the ball, though. He and Hauritz are very alike, work on the principle of constant accuracy and patience to tie a batsman down. They both occasionally get big turn, but I wouldn't say they have anywhere near the revs on the ball that any leg spinner could get.

Sorry Boris, I was being a bit disingenuous. I meant really different deliveries, not variations. I think that this forum has led me to think of a list of leggies deliveries comprising:

Square leg break (maximum drift and turn, no dip)
Overspun leg break (smaller turn, more dip)
Topspinner (dip and bounce, little or no drift or turn)
Out of the hand slider (our version of an arm ball - palmed out of the hand)
Round the loop backspinner (can be called a slider or zooter)
Big googly (little or no overspin, thumb removed from ball)
Overspun googly (thumb on ball, less turn)
Backspun flipper (any number of fingers from 1 to all 4)
Offspinning flipper (turns the same as the googly - from off to leg for RHB)
Overspun flipper (Grimmett's favourite)
Wrong wrong 'un/Gipper (very hard to bowl, turns like the stock ball)
Flying saucer flipper as demonstrated by Benaud in MCC coaching video)

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: New Variation

Chris, you've pretty much nailed them all there, chuck in the Shane Warne 'Duffers' Slider, which is basically just bowl using a seamers technique running the fingers down the back of the ball, but have the seam cross-ways. Stuart Broad bowls a slower ball like this as it gives him the potential for the ball to hit the deck on the cross seam and therefore bounce really odd or if it hits the smoother surface it skids through. It'll do exactly the same for us too. You still use virtually the same grip - 2 up 2 down and I think there's potentially because you're not flicking the wrist to bowl it a little faster.

There's probably more but off the top of my head I can't think, I suppose even though you're a spinner you could just pull any delivery out of the bag and use it as a one off amongst your Leg Breaks? Off-cutters, Leg Cutters even finger spin God forbid!!!!! Anything to get em back in the sheds!

 

[chrisbell]

Re: New Variation

Chris, you've pretty much nailed them all there, chuck in the Shane Warne 'Duffers' Slider, which is basically just bowl using a seamers technique running the fingers down the back of the ball, but have the seam cross-ways. Stuart Broad bowls a slower ball like this as it gives him the potential for the ball to hit the deck on the cross seam and therefore bounce really odd or if it hits the smoother surface it skids through. It'll do exactly the same for us too. You still use virtually the same grip - 2 up 2 down and I think there's potentially because you're not flicking the wrist to bowl it a little faster.

There's probably more but off the top of my head I can't think, I suppose even though you're a spinner you could just pull any delivery out of the bag and use it as a one off amongst your Leg Breaks? Off-cutters, Leg Cutters even finger spin God forbid!!!!! Anything to get em back in the sheds!

Of course, I forgot that one, Dave, thanks.