Video Analysis Software

[Liz Ward]

Video Analysis Software

My software has become obsolete and although my provider has offered me a great deal to update, I have been looking around to see what else is on offer. As you can imagine, technology has moved on quite a bit in the last few years and I am really impressed with what is on offer.

However, in my search, I have discovered that few coaches actually use VA. This really surprises me so I was wondering if I could get your opinions:

If you are a coach and use VA, what are your thoughts? What do you use it for and how helpful/important do you find it?

If you are a coach and do not use VA, why?

If you are a player what are your thoughts? If you have been analysed via video footage, did you find it helpful?

If you have not been analysed via video footage, what are your reasons/main factors for not taking up this opportunity?

 

[mas cambios]

Re: Video Analysis Software

I don't use VA for the simple reason of cost. Either I need to get a camera and the software (which would be my preferred choice) or I have to pay someone else to do it (and the few that do it round here charge the earth).

Personally, I think that VA is really important as you see so many things you miss with the naked eye. It also allows you to actually work through things with the player, so they can see where they are going wrong rather than you simply telling them.

 

[TonyM]

Re: Video Analysis Software

I have used it a bit, but no where near as much as I would have liked. I used it with the bowlers over the winter and as mas says you certainly pick up things that can be missed with the naked eye. Now the league season is winding down for the kids I have been asked to do more 1-to-1s and I plan to use video more in this environment

I am booked on the ecb CDWs in the autumn so will hopefully pick up a few more tips for using video then as at present I mainly use it as another pair of eyes with the chance to show things to players and then look for adjustments / improvements

What software do you use / are you considering (I currently use a the demo version of MotionView but have recently been looking at this VcamCricket - Video Analysis & Training Software)

 

[onemoreover]

Re: Video Analysis Software

I don't use VA for the simple reason of cost. Either I need to get a camera and the software (which would be my preferred choice) or I have to pay someone else to do it (and the few that do it round here charge the earth).

Personally, I think that VA is really important as you see so many things you miss with the naked eye. It also allows you to actually work through things with the player, so they can see where they are going wrong rather than you simply telling them.

G'day All,

As mas suggests, cost is often a limiting factor, but also I agree with mas about the advantages of having such a tool available. So to help people out in this area of need, may I suggest a couple of free/open source software packages. They both run on MS Windows systems. I have used these and found them quite good.

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KINOVEA

Kinovea - Video Analysis Software for Sports

Kinovea is a post video capture analysis tool with some very nice features. The variable slow motion capability is great, side by side comparison, magnifying tool and drawing tools to name a few, all things you can use productively.
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SKILLCAPTURE

Video4Coach - SkillCapture

SkillCapture is primarily a real time video capture system that supports up to four concurrent cameras. It will also employ a video processing delay so that a monitor placed near a batsmen for example, can be viewed at an adjustable time delay after playing the recorded stroke. In other words, real time visual feedback to assist a coach or reinforce what the coach is already seeing and saying. The more concurrent cameras you intend to use the more demand there will be on computing horsepower of course. Not to be concerned, just a factor to keep in mind.
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These tools revealed things I was not seeing when coaching and used correctly, especially at junior level, increase the likelihood of earlier intervention in correcting bad mechanical habits and/or techniques.

I hope this is of some assistance to you all if you have need of VA.

cheers

 

[mas cambios]

Re: Video Analysis Software

I am booked on the ecb CDWs in the autumn so will hopefully pick up a few more tips for using video then as at present I mainly use it as another pair of eyes with the chance to show things to players and then look for adjustments / improvements

The CDWs are worth it - I found it really helpful to just sit in a room with other coaches going though videos. Discussing where players were going wrong was interesting to say the least.

A word of warning though, the CDWs on video are as much about how to set up sessions (video placement, child protection etc) as they are about identifying faults. They also spend time on how to remedy common faults which forms most of the 'hands on' part of the sessions.

 

[TonyM]

Re: Video Analysis Software

The CDWs are worth it - I found it really helpful to just sit in a room with other coaches going though videos. Discussing where players were going wrong was interesting to say the least.

A word of warning though, the CDWs on video are as much about how to set up sessions (video placement, child protection etc) as they are about identifying faults. They also spend time on how to remedy common faults which forms most of the 'hands on' part of the sessions.

Thanks for that, dont you find that it is often the case with courses in that sometimes the 'best' bits are in the less formal group sessions rather than the 'teaching' bits. To be honest I would probably benefit from a basic set up sessions as I have tended to treat the cameras as 'where would I want to stand to get another look at this' and then taking it from there.

Onemoreover - thanks for the links, I have seen some references to Kinovea on a baseball forum but will go and have a closer look

 

[mas cambios]

Re: Video Analysis Software

Thanks for that, dont you find that it is often the case with courses in that sometimes the 'best' bits are in the less formal group sessions rather than the 'teaching' bits. To be honest I would probably benefit from a basic set up sessions as I have tended to treat the cameras as 'where would I want to stand to get another look at this' and then taking it from there.

They tend to be - not often you get the chance to swap ideas with other coaches. I got the impression that the CDWs are there to round out the level 2 qualification as much as build on it.

 

[Liz Ward]

Re: Video Analysis Software

Thank you all for your imput; very interesting.

I held off from replying to you Tony, hoping that the odd player may contribute.

I have been using Quintic software for quite some years and have to say that I have been really happy with it.

I do not use VA to find biomechanical malfunction; I can assess it live; instantly. However, it is really important to make a record of any deficit and there is no better way than capturing it on video. It also works as 'evidence'. TBH, I do not have any difficulty with being believed by the players [my problems are usually with the coaches ] but if you do have a player that believes they have a perfect technique, you can show them where they are going wrong. It is quite often a revelation to the player when they can see themselves bowling and batting etc.

Improvements can occur quite slowly but I can assure you, if you know what you are doing, the improvements are there. It is really helpful to take new videos every two weeks, or so, and compare with previous sessions. I challenge anybody to remember, exactly, a player's technique a month or so on. For this reason, you really do need software that will synchronise. Not only is it important to synchronise old and new videos but also two views. I use two cameras; one from front/back view and one from side view. It is important that these can be synchronised so that you get a 'kind of' 3D view. Synchronisation is also useful if you want to show your player's view against a control; a best practice video.

VA is also important for motivation. For instance, if we consider correcting a mixed action, this can be quite soul destroying for a player and can impact technically, physically and psychologically. Rerouting the neuromuscular pathway feels awkward and often the player will be wondering whether they are doing the right thing. Being able to show the improvements is vital and can inspire them to keep going.

In my opinion, we cannot really be providing our players with the best opportunity to maximise their potential with it.

As for which system I am looking at, I shall move on to another post .

 

[Liz Ward]

Re: Video Analysis Software

I am not yet in a position to say which software I favour. I still have some research to carry out. However, Youtube is not an option for me; mainly for security reasons. I do not need to worry too much about child protection these days as I have little to do with children anymore but as a lot of my work is remedial, it is not acceptable for viewing by all and sundry.

I have found a system, quite by chance, that has made me reassess my requirements. You purchase a licence to operate and all information is stored on a server. With this licence comes twenty odd, sort of sub-licences.

These 'sub-licences' can be sold, in a coaches case, to each player they work with. It can be included in the one2one package. If they do not want the facility, they do not have to pay, but if they are interested, you could have two services; a 'regular' one2one package and a 'gold' one2one package, which includes VA, with the extra cost. You could pay for the system with just 20 players. If the licence was taken out by a club, this would be easy to achieve.

Videos can then be taken on your mobile phone/2 mobile phones... not just camcorders. Once uploaded to the system, you can discuss the video online, live, with however number of members in your 'Zone' you wish to; like a chat room; all seeing the video and any analytical markings you are making.

This appeals to me because I can discuss a player's deficit online with the player, technical coach, S&C Coach, medical personnel etc all at the same time.

From a coach's point of view, they can discuss the analysis with the player/parent, other coaches or, if pigs learn to fly, a biomechanist , anywhere in the World.

I would love to know what your thoughts are regarding this kind of technology.

 

[phil2oo8]

Re: Video Analysis Software

Got VA'd at LDCC player development last winter and enjoyed it to a certain level, yes i liked the finer details to be picked up and to be able see myself what i was doing wrong so i could put what the coach was criticising into some sort of context but that was about it, i didnt like everytime i forgot to not clench my left fist as i bowled to be yelled and shown a video over and over again, and then it reached a stage coz i new what my action looked like i was visualising it as i was bowling and then i was trying to bowl more how i imagined from watching then wat was natural,,, so yer its ok but i wouldnt go out my way to have it done again

 

[Liz Ward]

Re: Video Analysis Software

Thanks Phil, much appreciated.

I would really like the coaches' views on what you say. From my point of view, this is not how VA should be used... but then again, I think it is quite well known that I hate 'clones'.

I would not use VA for nit picking ... and certainly do not believe in 'yelling' at a player. What do you learn from that?

I am not sure the 'finer details' are the coaches responsibility. If the coaches here disagree, please let me know but I would prefer the coach concentrated on essentials. To me, the 'finer details' are what makes the player human; it is what gives them their flair.

Clencing the fist is not 'essential' to the action; concentrating on it takes the emphasis off what is 'essential'.

I am sorry you felt the coach was 'criticising'. I would not consider that best practice. When I coached, I would highlight, firstly anything that was dangerous and then anything that reduced pace and accuracy. [The factors were usually the same ]. If I wanted a player to change anything, I would explain why, i.e. why it may be dangerous or why changing would increase pace and accuracy. Encouragement is what's needed, not criticism.

I have to say, I am also not keen on you visualising your action whilst bowling. Your action should be natural and it never will be if you are visualising it. It means you are thinking and it is too late to think when you're on the field.

 

[mas cambios]

Re: Video Analysis Software

Videos can then be taken on your mobile phone/2 mobile phones... not just camcorders. Once uploaded to the system, you can discuss the video online, live, with however number of members in your 'Zone' you wish to; like a chat room; all seeing the video and any analytical markings you are making.

This appeals to me because I can discuss a player's deficit online with the player, technical coach, S&C Coach, medical personnel etc all at the same time.

From a coach's point of view, they can discuss the analysis with the player/parent, other coaches or, if pigs learn to fly, a biomechanist , anywhere in the World.

I would love to know what your thoughts are regarding this kind of technology.

Think this is the way forward. Cloud computing would be so handy - as you say you can share the data and have many people accessing it from where ever they are.

As for its use, have to agree with you. We're not there to create clones but to give players the best chance of reaching their potential. VA should not be used solely to beat players around the head but as a tool which can be used to highlight errors, to record/measure improvement and to help players understand their own game.

 

[TonyM]

Re: Video Analysis Software

Just back from two hours of 'criticising' and 'yelling' oops sorry coaching

Phil, video or not that doesnt sound a great way of coaching so I wouldnt dismiss the VA out of hand (and heaven only knows why you need a clenched fist to bowl??). Read mas's last paragraph to see what VA could (should) be used for, in fact I would even say that is a tad negative with the 'highlight errors' comment which I am pretty sure would not be how it would come across in a session, more of an expansion of the 'lets work on this issue and see if it can be improved by ...'. As an example I had a lad over the winter who bowled slightly round his front leg which either took an awful lot of strain or he ended up pushing the ball leg side - with the chance to show him on video and then suggest he pushed his leg slightly wider he looked much more comfortable and had a better line

 

[TonyM]

Re: Video Analysis Software

...
From a coach's point of view, they can discuss the analysis with the player/parent, other coaches or, if pigs learn to fly, a biomechanist , anywhere in the World.

I would love to know what your thoughts are regarding this kind of technology.

Sounds great and I would guess the nearer you get to elite level the easier this is, sorry to sound like a school teacher bemoaning class sizes but size does matter and when relying on volunteer helpers getting quality time to do the VA is not overly high on the agenda - I know it would have benefits but in the meantime I just need the lads to grasp the concept of 'scoring' not 'hitting' (pm me with any tips please)

On the up side my new club has agreed to hold a Cricket Week and (subject to numbers) it looks like every player will get some 1-2-1 time and I discussed with the coaches this evening that this should include the option of VA. OK we may be nearing the end of the season but I think if this is well received by players (and parents) it may make the process easier for the future

As for having a biomechanist, be careful what you wish for - if you are only a 'cloud' away we may all come asking (thanks again for your help earlier in the year). I think the idea of a '2nd opinion' of another coach could be just as useful with a picture painting a 1000 words, just look at the spin forum for how it could turn out

 

[Liz Ward]

Re: Video Analysis Software

... (and heaven only knows why you need a clenched fist to bowl??)...

It is not something I would encourage... could cause medial epicondylitis.

 

[Liz Ward]

Re: Video Analysis Software

...OK we may be nearing the end of the season but I think if this is well received by players (and parents) it may make the process easier for the future

This is the best time to be looking at VA. If you discover a deficit, you will have a long time to work on it, without any changes impacting on natural play. The bulk of the work will be completed by the start of winter training, when all you will need to do is 'polishing'.

As for having a biomechanist, be careful what you wish for - if you are only a 'cloud' away we may all come asking (thanks again for your help earlier in the year). I think the idea of a '2nd opinion' of another coach could be just as useful with a picture painting a 1000 words, just look at the spin forum for how it could turn out

You will always be welcome to join me on my cloud... it's the ninth from the left .

Of course, discussing an action with others online is great, but this system also allows you to leave messages for your player/other coach(es) when they are not around as well, as soon as they log on, any instruction, suggestion, comment etc. will be there waiting for them.


One thing I should have said about the system I am looking at, although not too much of a plus for me as I am not cricket specific, the guy responsible for it in the UK was CDM for Essex and is responsible for most of the workshops in the Eastern Counties, so any help given would be first class .


If you are looking for introducing VA at your cricket week, why not ask a few providers to come along and show you what they can do. Good software does not come cheaply so it is really important to get the feel of the systems you are interested in before you make a decision.

 

[mas cambios]

Re: Video Analysis Software

Read mas's last paragraph to see what VA could (should) be used for, in fact I would even say that is a tad negative with the 'highlight errors' comment which I am pretty sure would not be how it would come across in a session

You are correct - I should have put 'highlight the good and the not so good and give an idea as to what, if anything could be improved'.

 

[Liz Ward]

Re: Video Analysis Software

Well.... umm...

...actually, you really do need to highlight the deficits, but I know what Tony means, it is the way it is done that counts.

An encouraging, nurturing environment is essential but the whole point of VA is to iron out any malfunction, so everybody must be crystal clear what they are. However, there is a difference between smoothing the deficits out and bashing the player over the head with the iron.

 

[mas cambios]

Re: Video Analysis Software

I was just being lazy to some extent and not really typing what I meant. What I was really getting at is that there are various ways of doing things. Trying to stay away from from focussing on the negative can be hard, even harder to avoid using negative language and terms. Of course we are going to be looking for faults but you should also be looking for the things a player does well - there has to be a trade off between the positive and the negative. Too much of either can be destructive.

As I said, for me the main point of VA is to help players achieve their full potential. No matter how closely I watch players in real time, I will always miss something. Being able to look at their action or a shot in slo-motion means that I can get the full picture and then decide if anything needs to be changed. Sometimes there will be something to tinker, others time it's best left alone. The key is knowing when to act and when to leave it.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Video Analysis Software

what is the difference between dedicated VA software, and simply editing your own videos and playing them back in regular video software (e.g. VLC media player)?

im guessing that VA software has the ability to simply load up videos, easily synchronise them, play them side-by-side, and freeze-frame, etc? as well as organising videos into a library of some sort for easy reference? in which case that would definitely be a LOT easier than the way i do it for my own DIY analysis (especially if you work with multiple players). however, whilst this thread is about professional coaching/VA, i have a DIY setup that is fairly cheap, and could prove useful to those players who cant really afford professional coaching, but would like to analyse themselves, in case anyone is interested.

it consists of a Sony CX100/105 camcorder, which has a 3-second super slow motion feature on it. a tripod to hold it, a remote trigger mechanism i made (not required if you have an assistant to press the button for you), and then the included software to play back the videos. all in i think its probably about £350 worth of kit, but no doubt the cameras are even cheaper now as i bought mine nearly a year ago for £320 off eBay. its useful to have a proper video editing suite (e.g. Sony Vegas) to edit the videos for YouTube if you want to share them, but this isnt required for analysis, the raw video files are higher quality and the included Sony software can freeze frame.

my method is to set the camera on the tripod wherever i want to film from (generally from behind, but sometimes from the side or in front as well). i attach my remote trigger, run the wire and switch box so that its sat at the end of my follow through (i tread on the switch to trigger it, an assistant could do this just as easily though if youve got one present). and then i bowl my delivery, hit the switch at the end of the follow through, and then the camera captures the 3 seconds of video prior to the switch being hit. it then plays it back in 1/4 speed slow motion.

its not a professional setup, but it does a great job for little money. because it captures at 240fps the slow motion is really smooth. its genuine high speed video capture, rather than regular 30fps slowed down which is jerky and lacking in detail.

id be curious to see what the professional methods produce as their end result by comparison. im sure they are much easier to view and analyse, whereas my method takes a bit of post-processing to make it useable (downloading the video to a PC (most laptops arent high enough spec to play it back) and then viewing it). this is no good if you want to do analysis whilst youre bowling. i do my analysis post-session and then take a list of ideas of improvements along to my next session. but the problem then is that natural inconsistencies in my action between sessions can sometimes mean it takes me an hour or so to get back to where i was in the first place.

with regards how useful video analysis is - id bet that if you asked any bowler in the world (including professionals) who hadnt seen themselves on video to describe their action in the 3rd person, that they would all be absolutely miles away from the reality. perception of what you think you are doing, compared with what you are actually doing, tends to be vast, but you dont realise this until you see it on video. its truly shocking to see yourself bowl for the first time, and (in my case at least) realising that you look nothing like Shane Warne at all, even though you were positive you had copied his action to perfection lol. ive only used the video for bowling, but its probably just as useful for batting.

i put the best videos of my bowling on YouTube. theres a link below my post.

for the coaches on here - what does it generally cost for video-assisted coaching sessions? there is a cricket centre just down the road from me (Dummer Cricket Centre) that offers coaching, as well as VA, but i think its quite pricey. i cant really justify it, but i might be tempted to try it out if they can show me the video instantly after ive bowled the delivery. because thats where my DIY setup is lacking.