Video Analysis/suggestions On Action

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tcs

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I have tried to improve the video, this time included my action as well (last three) just to contrast what my son is doing different as well as to show him the arm/wrist at the moment of delivery.
I will reserve my comments until you have seen the videos.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChYHivKP8sA - from back

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuFeuk9Z4NY - arm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4TJ_RRN_vQ- from front

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0yAtRwasBM - tcs from back
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5kwwVFZN40 - tcs arm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NG3oVzOFd_E - tcs from front
 
I'm never sure what it is that you're looking for us to say with regards the videos, in this instance your son in the 'From the back' shot looks to be bowling relatively well. You've not said what it is that he's trying to do though? So if we're to assume that he's trying to bowl an off-side stump line despite the fact that (To my eyes) his action look okay he's got some work to do. The ball doesn't turn in this instance or appear to do any of the magical things such as dip and drift, so the assumption therefore is he may not be flicking it from the wrist/fingers to get the ball spinning?

What are your own thoughts? In your own video it looks a lot slower, but you get some loop and it also looks as though the ball drifts a bit.
 
Even though he can turn the ball when he is tossing it to me, once he gets to the 22 yards, he loses it. I was trying to see what he is doing in the delivery stride, vs what I am doing - I get good turn. Here is my analysis.
1. The left side of his body falls away early, dont know if it is due to the head falling away or the left arm pulling to the side and going too early. This makes him bowl from almost vertical to past-vertical.
2. From this position, difficult to turn your wrist to bowl leg spin, the back of the wrist is facing mid-off already. This explains why he tends to spear the ball, which either does not turn or goes down the legside (sometimes).

When I contrast this against mine, I keep my left hand up longer, my head falls slightly, but recovers post-delivery and I have a rounder arm action to impart spin.

1. How do I ensure that the left had does not pull to the side. Some people suggest tucking it in?.
2. Rounder arm action, dont know how hard this is to change?

Any other suggestions?.
 
Ah right. I'm probably not the best at this anlysis lark. The key difference seems to be that you keep far more upright, your torso and spin seem to stay straight whereas your son seems to be bending and leaning forwards into the delivery. He also seems to be bowling at speed with no discernable spin? The desription of being able to get the ball to turn over a shorter distance sounds like my bowling last year. Over a short distance like your son I could get the ball to turn, but once I got to about 18 yards I started to lose it and it wouldn't spin. It maybe the case that he needs to look at his grip and the way the ball is released. Does he feel the abrasion of the ball on his spinning finger - e.g. blisters or soreness? Is his grip firm or loose? Does he hold the ball high in the hand and have a fingery action or is it low in the hand?

With the bent body and the falling away - maybe try some drills where he bowls off the stand start, but gets the body straight by thinking tall and spinning the ball up as Warne says, if he stands tall and rises up onto the ball of his foot in the rotation, this may encourage a more round armed approach. Just take it slower and see what the outcome is with the ball?
 
tcs said:
Even though he can turn the ball when he is tossing it to me, once he gets to the 22 yards, he loses it. I was trying to see what he is doing in the delivery stride, vs what I am doing - I get good turn. Here is my analysis.
1. The left side of his body falls away early, dont know if it is due to the head falling away or the left arm pulling to the side and going too early. This makes him bowl from almost vertical to past-vertical.
2. From this position, difficult to turn your wrist to bowl leg spin, the back of the wrist is facing mid-off already. This explains why he tends to spear the ball, which either does not turn or goes down the legside (sometimes).

When I contrast this against mine, I keep my left hand up longer, my head falls slightly, but recovers post-delivery and I have a rounder arm action to impart spin.

1. How do I ensure that the left had does not pull to the side. Some people suggest tucking it in?.
2. Rounder arm action, dont know how hard this is to change?

Any other suggestions?.
Click to expand...

Hi tcs. Are you in America??

I have looked at your videos and noticed quite a few similarities with my action.
First let me qualify myself. I have taken up leg spin and have been practicing seriously for nearly 2 years but only bowled in matches a few times. I come from a fast bowling background originally. I am starting to get good results with the leg spin after overcoming many problems in converting my action. So basically Im no expert but hopefully some of my suggestions help.
You and your sons actions seem to be quite similar in that you both lean away to the left. In your case your round arm seems to compensate for this in helping you get turn, but your son has a higher arm and when he falls away it goes past the vertical.
This is what I do and have to try and correct it all the time. I find when I go past the vertical the inside out action of the arm causes a lot of balls to get pushed down leg side too.
Your son seems to throw his leading arm away to the left a little early too. My suggestions are to try and get him to get him to concentrate on getting his leading arm continuing straight on to the target, and coming into the ribs first before continuing on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyHX7GsrMlo The other thing I would say is watch this video at the 7:40 mark ansd see how Warnes body is vertcal during the delivery stride rather than leaning away to the left. So simply just try and stand up straighter through the delivery . This will naturally bring the bowling arm back to a vertical position or slightly round arm.
Then the last thing is just try and follow through towards the stumps rather than rotating away.
He seems to have a pretty good and natural action though. I think he is going to naturally have a high arm so there are a few things he could try that have worked for me to get turn. Firstly the karate chop action at the stumps (As Dave advocates for getting over the googly syndrome) It will feel weird and like he is bowling a back spinner but I think this would turn out to be a leg break as he is probably just bowling topspinners at the moment with the beyond vertical arm.
Secondly he needs to slow down a little and when bowling this karate chop, bcackspinner think about pushing it up and almost lobbing it onto a good length. If he bowls it fast and flat it will just skid on like a slider or zooter.
Next time you get the camera out can you take a shot from the side, from where the non striker would stand.
Hopefully these few ideas help you out.
 
The one thing I spotted immediately is that your son seems to have his wrist flexed forward (correct) and the arm in neutral position (incorrect). His wrist then seems to "flap" as it extends and then flexes again at the very last minute in an attempt to spin the ball. It looks painful to me! His wrist then finishes in the flexed position, suggesting that he is pushing his fingers through the ball (perhaps in a effort to get pace?).
Either way - the wrist should always finish in the extended position to generate legspin. try and throw a legspinner to yourself with a flexed wrist - its physically impossible.

TLDR: when bowling legspin, the arm should start supinated and finish pronated. The wrist should started flexed and finished extended. Make sure these things are correct and your son should improve rapidly.
 
chippyben, thanks for your insight, yes I am in SF bay area - what gave it away :)
You are right, my head goes to the left as well.
Good suggestions to stand up straight, keep head straight and follow through stright. He also has an angular runup, dont know if he needs to run straight.
We have seen this video before, may be should pay attention to the positions Warne gets into.
I am not sure about the Karate chop however, may need to look at some older threads.
 
Thanks SLA for posting.
By arm neutral you mean not bent at the elbow?
You are saying the wrist starts flexed (meaning cocked), then straightens before delivery and again flexes at delivery?.
Can you elaborate a little more so that I can understand this better?.
 
tcs said:
Thanks SLA for posting.
By arm neutral you mean not bent at the elbow?
You are saying the wrist starts flexed (meaning cocked), then straightens before delivery and again flexes at delivery?.
Can you elaborate a little more so that I can understand this better?.
Click to expand...

Sorry for the technical terminology.

If you put your arm straight out in front of you, and turn it so your palm is facing up, that is "supinated". If you rotate it so you're giving a thumbs down sign, that is "pronated". Halfway in between these two positions is what I mean by "neutral".

Offspinners start with their arms pronated and supinate them to generate spin. Legspinners start with their arms supinated and pronate them to generate spin. Does that make sense?
The wrist: flexed is when the wrist is bent forward, extended is when the wrist is lifted back (I'm not sure which one you mean by "cocked"). Quick bowlers generate pace by flexing their wrist (bending it forward) as they let go of the ball. Offspinners (other than Murali) don't tend to use their wrists and just keep them extended throughout the action (hence finger spin). Legspinners extend their wrist (straighten it) as they bowl.

You son seems to be initially extending (aka straightening) his wrist (as he should be) - but then flexing it again like a pace bowler just at the vital moment. This is what's killing the legspin, because flexing of the wrist generates backspin. If you watch the video of him bowling from behind, it looks like his wrist "flaps" back then forward really quickly.
 
I forgot to mention - if you freeze frame the two arm shots just before release - its clear that your arm is pronated at delivery (ie your thumb is leading and your palm is pointing towards midwicket) and your fingers are rolling going over the top of the ball, whereas with your son, his arm is in the neutral position (ie his palm is pointing straight down the track) and his fingers have nowhere to go but straight down the back.

He needs to face his palm more towards the midwicket and make sure to keep his wrist straight throught the delivery. His actual body action is fine.
 
tcs said:
chippyben, thanks for your insight, yes I am in SF bay area - what gave it away :)
You are right, my head goes to the left as well.
Good suggestions to stand up straight, keep head straight and follow through stright. He also has an angular runup, dont know if he needs to run straight.
We have seen this video before, may be should pay attention to the positions Warne gets into.
I am not sure about the Karate chop however, may need to look at some older threads.
Click to expand...

Sorry I didnt really explain the karate chop too well. What I mean is more the minds concept of what the wrist is doing. Your son may feel his wrist is in the right position for a legbreak but in reality it is a top spinner. So following that logic his topspinner may be a wrong un. So what Im am suggesting is trying to bowl a backspinner(karate chop)which may in fact turn out to be a leg break. His high arm will exaggerate the effect of the wrist playing tricks on the mind, (As I have learned the hard way!!)
The other thing is to paint one side of the ball a different colour so you can really see what is happening with the spin on the ball if you cant see the seam properly.
Hope thats a bit clearer and good luck>
 
SLA - Thanks for the detailed explanation. It makes a lot of sense. Post-delivery, the back of the hand must face your right cheek, palm now faces mid-on. It would be great to study the arm/wrist sequence of a bowler. Will try to get one. I am wondering if this is due to the body already turned towards gully and in order to target the stumps, he needs to push the ball towards the leg stump?.
chippyben - will try what you are suggesting with a red-whte ball. BTW looked at your video and your action looks nice and very good leg breaks.
 
If you're not getting the ball to break towards off, it may be a case that you're simply not producing any side spin. This may be down to bowling googlies/wrong uns too much. It's a well recognised fact that when a bowler focuses his attention on bowling googlies/wrong uns he/she runs the risk of losing his/her leg break. This is something that happened to me and I coined this phenomenon 'The Googly Syndrome'. I spent the best part of a year rectifying it and the main thing that I observed was that when you've got the Googly Syndrome as far as you're concerned you are not doing anything wrong and you're bowling out of the front of the hand as you should when bowling the Leg Break. But the reality is that you're not, you're probably bowling incorrectly and more out of the back of the hand despite how it feels. In order to get the Leg Break back you have to think more about how your hand and wrist feels as you bowl. As the arm comes over to release the ball you might need to think in terms of getting the wrist twisted inwards far more than you would normally do so. Hold you hand in front of you now with the palm pointed towards the computer screen. As you bowl, at the point of release your plam should face the batsman in the same way that it's now pointing at the screen. But if it's not turning off the pitch, try bowling with your hand at the release point with the palm facing to the left and the edge of the hand facing the batsman as if you're doing a karate chop. If you've got the Googly syndrome or you're lacking any turn, this twisting of the wrist often gets your wrist back into the right place for the Leg Break and you may get the ball turning again. Many people that I've suggested this to have come back to me after years of bowling wrong uns and having lost their Leg Break to report that they've got their Leg Break back. A key part of the process, if you do bowl wrong uns is that you STOP bowling wrong uns and Top Spinners till you get your leg break back.
 
Judging from the video, it doesn't <look> like googly syndrome to me. Googly syndrome is caused by strong pronation combined with weak wrist extension. The problem here is weak pronation combined with an aborted attempt at extension. You could call it "slider syndrome". :D
 
Kiran Rajkumar said:
This is my bowling action. It was taken in a cell phone in my courtyard. I'll post a better one soon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbXCbgEiHjg
Click to expand...

You have a really nice action. Do you have any particular problems with your action? poor accuracy or little spin for example. If you don't I would just say all there is to do is practice, practice and more practice.
The only little thing I noticed is when you land on your back leg your forward momentum seems to stop. Having said that its probably better if you shoot a video from the side to see this aspect better.
http://www.youtube.com/user/chippyben1?feature=mhum#p/a/f/0/AyHX7GsrMlo Watch the first few seconds of this video. It shows Warne landing on his back leg with his body still moving forward.
 
chippyben said:
You have a really nice action. Do you have any particular problems with your action? poor accuracy or little spin for example. If you don't I would just say all there is to do is practice, practice and more practice.
The only little thing I noticed is when you land on your back leg your forward momentum seems to stop. Having said that its probably better if you shoot a video from the side to see this aspect better.
http://www.youtube.com/user/chippyben1?feature=mhum#p/a/f/0/AyHX7GsrMlo Watch the first few seconds of this video. It shows Warne landing on his back leg with his body still moving forward.
Click to expand...

That's made me go back and look at my action with regards the point you're making about still moving forwards as the back leg lands.
 
chippyben said:
You have a really nice action. Do you have any particular problems with your action? poor accuracy or little spin for example. If you don't I would just say all there is to do is practice, practice and more practice.
The only little thing I noticed is when you land on your back leg your forward momentum seems to stop. Having said that its probably better if you shoot a video from the side to see this aspect better.
http://www.youtube.com/user/chippyben1?feature=mhum#p/a/f/0/AyHX7GsrMlo Watch the first few seconds of this video. It shows Warne landing on his back leg with his body still moving forward.
Click to expand...

I turn the ball a lot and also get a bit a of drift but I am a little inconsistent with my length. I think its probably got to do with my concentration. I can bowl around 20-25 balls on length and then it starts to waver. I try to spend as much time on the front foot as possible that's probably the reason that it looks like I am losing momentum from this angle. I had a look at your videos. Your action is slightly open.You need to tuck your front hand into your hips. Watch Shane Warne from the front angle. By doing this you will remain side-on for longer and your turn will increase too.
 
Nice action Kiran, wow your wrist is real supple. I used to have the same problem, bowl 4 good overs and then the arm and shoulder get tired. I guess practice and as you grow stronger it should come.

Chippyben - I saw what you mention on warne's action, he starts to lean back before he lands his right foot. Another thing I notice is that the right arm does not start moving forward until the front foot lands, which is a problem for my son. Here it is converted to frames.

action.jpg
 
I noticed the strong leading arm action Warne has in the video and I've been working with it in my practices and it's made a bit of a difference. Shame the text comes up during this clip and obscures the frames a bit.
 
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