Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

[GoldenArm]

strong Freudian slip there.

The thumb shouldn't matter, because it comes off the ball before you release it anyway, unless you're doing something very badly wrong.

Haha oh Jesus just reread that. And me an English lit graduate. How embarrassing! Where's autocorrect when you need it! I couldn't disagree with you more regarding the thumb though. I used to think like you and I was completely wrong, took me 3/4 years to realise though. It's critical for some people, me included now. Ring finger is still the headliner imparting the spin but it's a vital support act to it. And if you re read back up this thread you can see the thumb is right in contact up till moment of release even for Warne, someone even has a photo of it somewhere or a screenshot. It's not putting any spin on obviously but what it does do is it lets me have a loose grip; because I know that ball is always right where I want it, nicely, comfortably cupped right through the loop around and underneath and then as the wrist unfurls as the arm comes over, and it takes a vast amount of strain off that ring finger during that motion. I used to get a torn up finger, now that never happens and its ripping further and more consistently. I've never been so happy or confident with my bowling, and along with improved basics the other 50% has come from having my thumb on the ball. If you bowl as well as can without it then more power to you but don't dismiss it, for many people it's a gamechanger.

 

[Cleanprophet]

The thumb shouldn't matter, because it comes off the ball before you release it anyway, unless you're doing something very badly wrong.

I think what he was getting at is the thumb helps keep a secure grip right up to the release point. Some bowlers don't need it and some possibly do.

ahhh, just confirmed in his reply:

It's not putting any spin on obviously but what it does do is it lets me have a loose grip; because I know that ball is always right where I want it,

I also disagree with your opinion about a cocked wrist. Something being cocked means that it is in position and ready to fire. That is why many people, not just me, describe the bent wrist as being "cocked". You can also described the polar opposite position as cocked if you are snapping the wrist in the other direction, as in tennis or squash. It all depends on context.

 

[GoldenArm]

I think what he was getting at is the thumb helps keep a secure grip right up to the release point. Some bowlers don't need it and some possibly do.

ahhh, just confirmed in his reply:



I also disagree with your opinion about a cocked wrist. Something being cocked means that it is in position and ready to fire. That is why many people, not just me, describe the bent wrist as being "cocked". You can also described the polar opposite position as cocked if you are snapping the wrist in the other direction, as in tennis or squash. It all depends on context.

I think we all know what you meant, you wouldn't be the first to describe it as a cocked wrist talking about leg spin. Technically it's probably not right, but I'm not sure we need that level of pedantry. Some people just feel the need to be right about everything. *Hurries away to recheck his grammar and spelling for everything he's ever posted in case SLA is on the case*

 

[someblokecalleddave]

What you all doing here in the UK for pre-season strength and conditioning?

 

[SLA]

What you all doing here in the UK for pre-season strength and conditioning?

weights twice a week, squash twice a week, nets once a week, a run maybe once a week. That's more for general strength and conditioning though rather than cricket specific.

 

[SLA]

I think we all know what you meant, you wouldn't be the first to describe it as a cocked wrist talking about leg spin. Technically it's probably not right, but I'm not sure we need that level of pedantry. Some people just feel the need to be right about everything. *Hurries away to recheck his grammar and spelling for everything he's ever posted in case SLA is on the case*

I wouldn't describe it as pedantry. If you use the wrong word to describe something, people are going to get confused and do the wrong thing.

There's not much point in trying to give advice if you don't know the right words and end up inadvertently advising someone to do something completely wrong. You could ruin someone's career.

Its important that when people do see mistakes, they correct them, otherwise those mistakes live on as the truth and confuse a whole generation of spin bowlers. I'm sure that isn't what you want, is it?

 

[SLA]

I think what he was getting at is the thumb helps keep a secure grip right up to the release point. Some bowlers don't need it and some possibly do.

ahhh, just confirmed in his reply:



I also disagree with your opinion about a cocked wrist. Something being cocked means that it is in position and ready to fire. That is why many people, not just me, describe the bent wrist as being "cocked". You can also described the polar opposite position as cocked if you are snapping the wrist in the other direction, as in tennis or squash. It all depends on context.

Its not an opinion, so there is nothing to disagree with. Its a technical term with a specific meaning. A wrist being cocked means "tilted upwards", ie the opposite of bent forwards.

Brett Lee says "When I take off at the crease, leaving the ground, my wrist is cocked"

You can see what he means by the term here;

 

[Cleanprophet]

It's not putting any spin on obviously but what it does do is it lets me have a loose grip; because I know that ball is always right where I want it,

Its not an opinion, so there is nothing to disagree with. Its a technical term with a specific meaning. A wrist being cocked means "tilted upwards", ie the opposite of bent forwards.

Brett Lee says "When I take off at the crease, leaving the ground, my wrist is cocked"

You can see what he means by the term here;

No, no, no. You are misundestanding the aspect of context. The aim of Brett Lee is the same as Roger Federer, to snap the wrist from an extended position - therefore, the cocked wrist in that context (ie the start position) is extended. The aim of a wrist spinner is to snap the wrist open from a bent position - therefore the cocked wrist in that context (ie the start position) is bent.

You see, a bent wrist and an extended wrist are polar opposites. A "cocked" wrist is not specifically bent or extended - it fully depends upon what action is being employed and the subsequent start point of that action.

 

[SLA]

No, no, no. You are misundestanding the aspect of context. The aim of Brett Lee is the same as Roger Federer, to snap the wrist from an extended position - therefore, the cocked wrist in that context (ie the start position) is extended. The aim of a wrist spinner is to snap the wrist open from a bent position - therefore the cocked wrist in that context (ie the start position) is bent.

You see, a bent wrist and an extended wrist are polar opposites. A "cocked" wrist is not specifically bent or extended - it fully depends upon what action is being employed and the subsequent start point of that action.

No, no, no. You are misundestanding the aspect of context. The aim of Brett Lee is the same as Roger Federer, to snap the wrist from an extended position - therefore, the cocked wrist in that context (ie the start position) is extended. The aim of a wrist spinner is to snap the wrist open from a bent position - therefore the cocked wrist in that context (ie the start position) is bent.

You see, a bent wrist and an extended wrist are polar opposites. A "cocked" wrist is not specifically bent or extended - it fully depends upon what action is being employed and the subsequent start point of that action.

So if I said to you "cock your wrist", what would you do?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Surely if you cock something it just means that it's set to go, so both of you are correct.

 

[SLA]

Surely if you cock something it just means that it's set to go, so both of you are correct.

It means to pull back or to pull up. If you cock your wrist you don't bend it forward.

If you were coaching leg spin to 100 people and told them to all pick up a ball and hold it with their wrist cocked, 99 of them would pull their wrist upwards, and the other 1 would copy them.

So if you meant them to bend it forward, you would have just told them all the opposite of what you wanted.

 

[Cleanprophet]

Surely if you cock something it just means that it's set to go

Spot on Dave. That is the very definition of something being cocked. Think of the most common and historical use of the term - a cocked gun. It literally means that the hammer is ready to fire or, as you said Dave, ready to go.

It's all very well SLA asking the question "if I asked you to cock your wrist, what would you do?". That is an incomplete question without context. It's like me telling someone to tilt their head. Which way? To the left, the right, backwards, forwards? It's a verb that needs context. In any sport that requires a cocked wrist, you would have to explain or demonstrate which way the wrist is to be cocked. That then establishes context which informs all future use of the word "cocked". Such as no.3 in the following:

http://www.wikihow.com/Bowl-Leg-Spin

 

[SLA]

Spot on Dave. That is the very definition of something being cocked. Think of the most common and historical use of the term - a cocked gun. It literally means that the hammer is ready to fire or, as you said Dave, ready to go.

It's all very well SLA asking the question "if I asked you to cock your wrist, what would you do?". That is an incomplete question without context. It's like me telling someone to tilt their head. Which way? To the left, the right, backwards, forwards? It's a verb that needs context. In any sport that requires a cocked wrist, you would have to explain or demonstrate which way the wrist is to be cocked. That then establishes context which informs all future use of the word "cocked". Such as no.3 in the following:

http://www.wikihow.com/Bowl-Leg-Spin

Just be aware that if you are giving coaching advice online you need to take responsibility and ownership of that. Whether inadvertently or intentionally, you are giving bad advice. The fact that you have no coaching education or qualifications is no excuse - someone who comes on here looking for advice could easily be confused into thinking that you know what you're talking about and go away and start cocking their wrist before attempting to bowl leg-spin, which would of course be a complete disaster. I'm sure that isn't what you want, so you need to think more carefully about the duty of care you have when giving advice on the internet.

 

[GoldenArm]

Just be aware that if you are giving coaching advice online you need to take responsibility and ownership of that. Whether inadvertently or intentionally, you are giving bad advice. The fact that you have no coaching education or qualifications is no excuse - someone who comes on here looking for advice could easily be confused into thinking that you know what you're talking about and go away and start cocking their wrist before attempting to bowl leg-spin, which would of course be a complete disaster. I'm sure that isn't what you want, so you need to think more carefully about the duty of care you have when giving advice on the internet.

I think for the sake of absolute clarity SLA is right, a cocked gun is after all when the hammer is pulled back. But I'm not sure there is any need to be quite so dramatic in saying a generation of spinners will be affected by one slight miscommunication that actually I've read in a hell of a lot of literature regarding leg spin, it's obviously a common misconception, which would have been an interesting point to make. I've never been in any doubt as to the wrist position as I'm a visual learner first and foremost when it comes to sport. The wrist does end up cocked with a radial deviation right at the finish if you've given it a big flick. Golfers and squash players probably account for the majority of people who would easily make this distinction and not many others. Perhaps SLA could take a different stance to the know it all approach when it comes to correcting people and just share his knowledge in a more forgiving fashion rather than demonstrating it like an overbearing schoolmaster. People are here to learn and share the wealth of their experience not to be told how to think and made to feel stupid nor told they are ethically bankrupt for attempting to puzzle something out.

 

[SLA]

I think for the sake of absolute clarity SLA is right, a cocked gun is after all when the hammer is pulled back. But I'm not sure there is any need to be quite so dramatic in saying a generation of spinners will be affected by one slight miscommunication that actually I've read in a hell of a lot of literature regarding leg spin, it's obviously a common misconception, which would have been an interesting point to make. I've never been in any doubt as to the wrist position as I'm a visual learner first and foremost when it comes to sport. The wrist does end up cocked with a radial deviation right at the finish if you've given it a big flick. Golfers and squash players probably account for the majority of people who would easily make this distinction and not many others. Perhaps SLA could take a different stance to the know it all approach when it comes to correcting people and just share his knowledge in a more forgiving fashion rather than demonstrating it like an overbearing schoolmaster. People are here to learn and share the wealth of their experience not to be told how to think and made to feel stupid nor told they are ethically bankrupt for attempting to puzzle something out.

I did, I simply politely explained that the picture depicted a flexed wrist, not a cocked wrist. Go back and read the original post. There was nothing "know it all" about this. It was only when people started saying "it doesn't matter, we all know what he meant", that I felt it necessary to point out that the advice you give on the internet DOES matter, because it really does. Its important we get this stuff right.

A wrist spinner starts with his wrist flexed and his arm supinated, and then pronates his arm and extends his wrist through the point of delivery. A fast bowler starts with his wrist extended (aka cocked) and then flexes it through delivery. The arm remains in the neutral position. An off-spinner starts with his arm pronated and then supinates it through delivery. Some off-spinners with more flexible shoulders are able to extend their wrist through delivery (eg Murali), some flex their wrist, and some don't use their wrist at all.

 

[Cleanprophet]

I did, I simply politely explained that the picture depicted a flexed wrist, not a cocked wrist. Go back and read the original post. There was nothing "know it all" about this. It was only when people started saying "it doesn't matter, we all know what he meant", that I felt it necessary to point out that the advice you give on the internet DOES matter, because it really does. Its important we get this stuff right.

A wrist spinner starts with his wrist flexed and his arm supinated, and then pronates his arm and extends his wrist through the point of delivery. A fast bowler starts with his wrist extended (aka cocked) and then flexes it through delivery. The arm remains in the neutral position. An off-spinner starts with his arm pronated and then supinates it through delivery. Some off-spinners with more flexible shoulders are able to extend their wrist through delivery (eg Murali), some flex their wrist, and some don't use their wrist at all.

Bottom line, you are incorrect. We can talk about extended wrists, bent wrists, pronation and supination 'til the cows come home. They are all distinct technical terms and not open to any interpretation. The word "cocked" is a generic term applicable to both an extended wrist and a bent wrist. Context is everything. Anyone interested in legspin has, presumably, actually saw someone bowling legspin. They will therefore be well aware that the wrist is bent and therefore context is established.

For the record, OED has it:

Cocked: Bend a (limb or joint) at an angle

I'm not a coach and I'm not coaching anyone. But if I were being coached, I would listen to a bloke who coached the greatest legspinner ever and not you.

 

[SLA]

Bottom line, you are incorrect. We can talk about extended wrists, bent wrists, pronation and supination 'til the cows come home. They are all distinct technical terms and not open to any interpretation. The word "cocked" is a generic term applicable to both an extended wrist and a bent wrist. Context is everything. Anyone interested in legspin has, presumably, actually saw someone bowling legspin. They will therefore be well aware that the wrist is bent and therefore context is established.

For the record, OED has it:

Cocked: Bend a (limb or joint) at an angle

I'm not a coach and I'm not coaching anyone. But if I were being coached, I would listen to a bloke who coached the greatest legspinner ever and not you.

Yes, so much is painfully obvious from reading your misinformed, inaccurate, unhelpful and misleading posts on this website.

You have zero cricket coaching knowledge or experience, so you are in no place to decide on what is a correct or incorrect cricket coaching term. Learn some humility and recognise when you are out of your depth in an argument. The word "cocked" has a specific meaning within biomechanics - it means lifted back or upwards. If you cock your head, you lift it up, you don't flex it forward. A "cocked wrist" specifically means an extended wrist - every single qualified sports coach knows this. The term is used in cricket, baseball, basketball, squash, golf, badminton, and it NEVER means a flexed wrist.

Don't take my word for it, sign up for a level 1 coaching course and when you've completed it and finally know what you're talking about, come back and apologise.

 

[Cleanprophet]

Sadly, humility is something you don't have any conception of, so you are highly unqualified to refer to it. You don't know what my coaching knowledge is or my cricketing experience is and yet you comment on it. That shows a level of igorance that is in keeping with your wholly flawed belief of what a cocked wrist is. I refer you once again to the OED definition:

Cocked: Bend a (limb or joint) at an angle.

Terry Jenner was regarded as the best leg spin coach in the world. Watch his video (1:26):



But what the hell does a former Test player, a 400 first class wicket taker and a top wrist spin coach know compared to you? To think, all that time he coached people and he was getting it wrong and letting them down so badly. It's disgraceful really isn't it?

I have only one apology to make and that is engaging with someone incapable of surmounting his own self-importance. I am sorry for that. Frankly, this thread has been a pleastant and enjoyable one in your absence. I suggest your crawl back under your rock and leave us reasonable people to get on with the cricket.

 

[SLA]

Sadly, humility is something you don't have any conception of, so you are highly unqualified to refer to it. You don't know what my coaching knowledge is or my cricketing experience is and yet you comment on it. That shows a level of igorance that is in keeping with your wholly flawed belief of what a cocked wrist is. I refer you once again to the OED definition:

Cocked: Bend a (limb or joint) at an angle.

Terry Jenner was regarded as the best leg spin coach in the world. Watch his video (1:26):



But what the hell does a former Test player, a 400 first class wicket taker and a top wrist spin coach know compared to you? To think, all that time he coached people and he was getting it wrong and letting them down so badly. It's disgraceful really isn't it?

I have only one apology to make and that is engaging with someone incapable of surmounting his own self-importance. I am sorry for that. Frankly, this thread has been a pleastant and enjoyable one in your absence. I suggest your crawl back under your rock and leave us reasonable people to get on with the cricket.

Until then, shut the ******** up because you're a ************** embarrassment to the spin bowling community. You're giving terrible, wrong, misleading advice when you need to be shutting up and listening to those here who actually know what they're talking about. Until you learn to listen to a professional spin bowling coach, you will continue to bowl your slow, loopy shit and get smashed around for 5 overs, 1-60 every week and then wonder why your skipper has taken you off.

Come back when you have a coaching qualification and you actually know what you're talking about. Actually, I wouldn't bother, because arrogant know-nothing pricks get kicked off the course, so don't waste your money. Just carry on chucking pies and talking ****************. Remember to come on here and tell us all how many runs you got smashed for this time, it gives us all a good laugh.

 

[Cleanprophet]

I read this post earlier today. Only just stopped laughing. Put your handbag down sweetheart and get some lithium down your throat.

I think being a know-nothing is certainly preferable to being a know-all because know-alls spit their dummy when they don't get their own way. Now, get yourself off to your rock toute suite