Well, I'm no further advanced than hand-to-hand at the moment, but, even then, I find a relaxed grip and big flick gets far more revs with a far more consistent seam angle.
Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)
- Thread starter Richard the Third
- Start date
Well, I'm no further advanced than hand-to-hand at the moment, but, even then, I find a relaxed grip and big flick gets far more revs with a far more consistent seam angle.
Not to mention lets you bowl longer- as pressure on finger causes skin to rupture
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
I've just bowled another 250-300 balls tonight all flicking the ball rather than my usual rolling technique, not once tonight have a rolled, which is a major break-through 5 years into my development as a bowler. Again tonight I followed the same format as last night - cocked wrist - gently flicked or unfurled, with the big flick off the collective fingers as in my Youtube video from a couple of months ago which I need to re-shoot. Initially I was having some reasonable success omitting the looking up, but in comparison to last night the results weren't so consistent, but reasonable. Then the last bucket of 50 balls I went back to the looking up at the hand and bowled 44 good balls. 4 went wide legside and 2 went wide off-side and all using the big flick and looking up at my hand as I bowl. I haven't got a clue really what the affect of the looking up is, but the impact on my bowling is massive, it may be I'm standing taller, I know in doing it I get up on to the ball of my foot in the rotation and it maybe that I'm releasing earlier as well, but all in all it's giving me a massive improvement on what I've been doing the last couple of years! It's not fast - but it's loopy and accurate and turns big. In between the odd ball here and there I've been bowling the Wrong Wrong Un and that is vastly different and coming along very nicely- Tiny off-break action and skids in low at massively higher speed. All in all a very good couple of sessions in the paddock and my recently re-injured knee is showing signs of improving already which is good. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NRx7UFLHLI
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
We've had some rain here in the UK after the warmest and driest start to a summer for in excess for 100 years, so it's welcome. The last time I got to roll the Paddock where we practice and I shoot my videos was back in Febraury when we had the last bit of rain that allowed me to do any rolling. In recent weeks the paddocks gone from big cracks to being on the verge of having a dry crumbly surface which isn't good for anyone. So with this recent rain I've been getting out there with the mower and the roller and doing some work and it's looking better than it has ever done and this probably means that it'll be in good nick well into July now which is good. I've uploaded a slide show of how it's come toghether over this year http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiVIiYiX8lU and blogged our maintenance activities on my blog http://mpafirsteleven.blogspot.com/2011/06/paddocks-looking-good.html
Kiran Rajkumar
Member
Amit Mishra was fantastic again. He got 3-28 in his 10 overs which included 2 maidens. He was varying the amount of sidespin and overspin he was putting on the ball and was generating some drift. The only West Indian who was picking his googly was Ramnaresh Sarwan.
There was a list in the News of the World today of the revs that spin bowlers generate. The ECB have some kind of laser device that measures it (I have my doubts about its accuracy), which accounts for all of the English spinners, but they have figures for lots of overseas players too, including Richie Benaud!! I have no idea how they have measured him, presumably he made the number up himself back in his playing days, because it sounds totally ridiculous to me.
Anyway the list has Shane Warne top with 2510rpm, Benaud 2nd with 2500rpm (which sounds way too high). Murali is 3rd, then theres a load of players youd expect like Harbhajan, Swann is on there with 2200rpm which is impressive. The next best Englishmen are Samit Patel at 1600 or 1700 I think, Panesar just behind him, then Paul Harris is at the bottom of the list with 1300rpm or something pathetic. Having watched him bowl I reckon thats at a push, he doesnt spin it at all, hes the worse international spin bowler I've ever seen.
My own video analysis said that I span the ball at 1500rpm last summer. I haven't measured it since then as I wanted to stop focussing so hard on such minor details as I knew I spun the ball harder than anyone else I have seen at club level, and it was what the ball did over 22 yards that needed more of my attention, and I think I spin the ball even harder now than I did then. However now I am a little miffed, as I would have expected to be way up that list somewhere just behind Warney. So back to the drawing board. The only positive is that I spin the ball as hard as the likes of Panesar and Patel, both of whom turn the ball very big on county wickets, and I'm 8-10mph slower than they are, hence the ridiculous amount of turn I am getting this season on literally any surface. If only I had some more accuracy!
Anyway the list has Shane Warne top with 2510rpm, Benaud 2nd with 2500rpm (which sounds way too high). Murali is 3rd, then theres a load of players youd expect like Harbhajan, Swann is on there with 2200rpm which is impressive. The next best Englishmen are Samit Patel at 1600 or 1700 I think, Panesar just behind him, then Paul Harris is at the bottom of the list with 1300rpm or something pathetic. Having watched him bowl I reckon thats at a push, he doesnt spin it at all, hes the worse international spin bowler I've ever seen.
My own video analysis said that I span the ball at 1500rpm last summer. I haven't measured it since then as I wanted to stop focussing so hard on such minor details as I knew I spun the ball harder than anyone else I have seen at club level, and it was what the ball did over 22 yards that needed more of my attention, and I think I spin the ball even harder now than I did then. However now I am a little miffed, as I would have expected to be way up that list somewhere just behind Warney. So back to the drawing board. The only positive is that I spin the ball as hard as the likes of Panesar and Patel, both of whom turn the ball very big on county wickets, and I'm 8-10mph slower than they are, hence the ridiculous amount of turn I am getting this season on literally any surface. If only I had some more accuracy!
Kiran Rajkumar
Member
Agree with you Jim, Richie Benaud generating 2500 revolutions per minute just sounds extremely ridiculous. It is impossible to generate so much of revs with that weird grip of his. Though there is possibility that he could have generated that much of revs on his flipper. But how on earth did the ECB get a laser device for measuring the revs that a spinner was generating during the 1960's?
Exactly, Benaud either just made that number up, or used some old slow motion video capture back in his day, which I would imagine would have been extremely crude and inaccurate. There is no way in my mind that he generated revs anywhere near that. Although it is largely irrelevant since Warne tops the list anyway, which we all already knew without any kind of laser measurement.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
Jim I reckon if you're spinning the ball as hard and fast as Panesar 1500rpm + you should look at going back to your over-spun Leg Break and doing some work with that and looking to get that round to a Top-Spinner. Surely if you're getting that kind of spin on the ball you should be able to bowl your 45MPH balls with loads of dip, flighting it right above the eye-line and getting it to drop like a stone?
legspinbowler
Member
It was a pleasure to watch Mishra turn the ball but I'm a bit skeptic on how he'll perform on the pitches that won't suit him as well. I say this because he rarely beats batsmen in flight. You could see the importance of flight in Yusuf Pathans bowling where he looked much better when he was flighting the bowl later on in his spell.
I have a pretty decent top spinner, I've had it since pre season and I use it every game. My stock ball at present is a backspun leg break, probably around 30-45 degs of backspin by the time I release it, so it isn't too far round from a sidespun delivery. It turns pretty consistently and it turns big, and it sets the batsman up for the other variations as the flight tends to be flatter and it doesn't do a lot in flight. It will drift decently, but not as much as overspun deliveries.
Then I have a completely sidespun ball that I use if I want maximum turn, I'll aim to pitch it well outside leg with the intention of bowling the bat behind his legs. It hasn't worked yet this season, I've had loads that just haven't quite turned enough, and one that did but went over the top of the stumps, but we are talking about balls pitching on the edge of the strip, so when one works it will be an absolute wonder delivery. None of them have been given as wides yet, which gives you an idea of how much they are turning!!
I use the overspun leg break quite regularly, it dips and then bounces and as a variation is usually turns really well. If I try and bowl it as my stock ball it tends not to turn consistently, maybe I end up moving around too far and just bowl top spinners? I'm not really sure.
I use the top spinner as my primary straight ball. I get more LBW's with backspun leg breaks than I do with the top spinner though, maybe because they stay a bit lower and carry a bit more in flight. The top spinner tends to get me top edges (none have got a wicket yet though).
Then I've got the Zooter/Back spinner which is just the opposite of the top spinner, it stays lower and finds bottom edges. You'll note that batsmen always play cross bat to these balls because they pitch on off stump and they expect it to turn enough to cut, but it doesn't and thats what causes them the problems. Last season batsmen just played me straight every ball, this season they play for turn every ball which is why I'm getting so many plum LBW's, and is because I've nailed consistency in hitting the seam, its just my accuracy that still lacks a bit, more for long hops than wides though.
I've got the off-spinning flipper working really well, and last time I used it in a game it had 2 batsmen playing at thin air every time, it just didnt stay low enough or turn enough to get the wicket, but thats because of my accuracy, if I had landed it on off stump it would have.
I also have a slider where I drag my fingers down the back of the ball, but this is often bowled accidentally more than deliberately. It isn't very effective for wicket taking but gets lots of dot balls, its basically just like bowling a slow medium pace delivery because it doesnt have enough revs to really stay low.
My match bowling speeds are probably 40mph tops (I had one over the other day where I really went for it as I was settled into a long'ish spell and bowling well, and I maybe pushed into the low-40's, the small difference in pace was a massive difference in the difficulty the batsmen had in playing me, at club level if you can hit 45mph consistently and still turn the ball you'll skittle sides out), I don't bowl at the same intensity as I was in nets pre-season. I don't get any time to practice at the moment so I have had to ease off on my action a bit or it falls apart too easily. I've hit a rhythm at the moment and I'm reluctant to change anything until nearer the end of the season. I'm not bowling that much in games as I've been playing mostly 1st XI cricket as a specialist fielder. I get overs midweek in T20 but usually only 2-4 so not enough time for a proper spell. I haven't played much Sunday cricket this season due to weather and other commitments, but those are the games where I get my 4-8 overs.
Once my consistency is nailed a bit more I'll fight for some bowling overs in the 1st XI. The 2nd team tends to play such negative cricket that I'm not even fussed about playing for them, I'd rather just field for the 1's as its a lot more enjoyable. My batting is coming along massively, I think I will be able to establish myself as a genuine all-rounder by next year, which takes pressure off my bowling. I'm too old to be realistically thinking about county cricket now, my target is to play ECB premier standard cricket at some point but I'd be happy enough just playing where I am and progressing with the team as our 1's are getting better all the time and keep getting promoted. So I figure I've got 20 years to "perfect" my leg spin now, and there is no rush. I'm already looking ahead to the winter, when I want to have a proper crack at the gym (I was half arsed last winter and got started but never progressed) and really work on my action in indoor nets so that next year I can dominate batsmen in pre-season nets, impress the captains, and have a proper crack at bowling from the outset, rather than trying to prove myself mid-season when the seamers aren't getting the job done.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
With your Top Spinner are you able to get more accuracy?
Not a very good day the past sunday for us. Lost to a team we should have beat. Batting first we scored 178 in 40 overs and they chased it in 38.5 with 4 wickets to spare. I realized how tough it is to bowl a leggie as I bowled myself only 1.5 overs. Their best bat was a leftie and as the mat was stretched very tight across the concrete pitch- there was very little spin on the wicket. Still I was getting the ball to spin and bounce, but with my bowling, it is never really what the batsman can do or what the wicket offers, but just whether I can desist from bowling a waist high fulltoss or a rank long hop.
A couple of times I wanted to bring myself on, but in stead went for the steadier off spinner as two lefties were batting together. I bowled one over with wind behind me, left- right combination at crease, bowled a short pitched ball that was pulled for a 3. Second ball, flighted on the off, the righthander tries to drive, edge to keeper. Leftie comes out to bat, third ball on the off defended, fourth- nudged for a single, fifth - topspinner tries to cut, but bounces up to his chest, and sixth, full toss dips and goes for two byes.
The next 5 balls, I bowled with 3 to get in 2 overs. Had the field up except for deep midwicket. This was the over I bowled without any pressure, first two nice leg breaks outside off, batsmen swings wildly and stumping appeals turned down. Third ball, punched off the back foot that should have been caught at short extra cover but the fielder didn't react, single. leftie got a full toss that he nudged for a single and then fifth ball of the over another single to covers. Ended with 1.5-0-8-1
Perhaps in the next match, I will be able to bowl myself a little more and get a few more wickets.
A couple of times I wanted to bring myself on, but in stead went for the steadier off spinner as two lefties were batting together. I bowled one over with wind behind me, left- right combination at crease, bowled a short pitched ball that was pulled for a 3. Second ball, flighted on the off, the righthander tries to drive, edge to keeper. Leftie comes out to bat, third ball on the off defended, fourth- nudged for a single, fifth - topspinner tries to cut, but bounces up to his chest, and sixth, full toss dips and goes for two byes.
The next 5 balls, I bowled with 3 to get in 2 overs. Had the field up except for deep midwicket. This was the over I bowled without any pressure, first two nice leg breaks outside off, batsmen swings wildly and stumping appeals turned down. Third ball, punched off the back foot that should have been caught at short extra cover but the fielder didn't react, single. leftie got a full toss that he nudged for a single and then fifth ball of the over another single to covers. Ended with 1.5-0-8-1
Perhaps in the next match, I will be able to bowl myself a little more and get a few more wickets.
4-32 in a T20 game tonight. Opened the bowling at one end and bowled 4 overs for 3 wickets, then came back on at the end of my last over and picked up another. Had 1 absolute sitter of a catch dropped in my first spell, and another slightly more difficult one dropped in my last over, so on another day I would have had a 6-fer!!
5-0-32-4 though in the end. Should be enough to get my name in the local paper I hope when they do the T20 league round-up article. Only 3 or 4 bad balls, and plenty of great ones. 1st XI captain was playing which can never be a bad thing! Easily my best ever performance, I feel like I can't do any wrong at the moment, long may it continue.
The wickets were all high quality too. First one was caught and bowled off a top edge that I ran down the pitch to catch. 2nd one was a good ball but pitch-assisted as it stayed very, very low and clean bowled the batsman. 3rd one was plum LBW. 4th was a great clean bowled, drift and turn through the gate having pitched on leg stump to hit the top of off! Then the 2 dropped catches in the deep on the legside.
5-0-32-4 though in the end. Should be enough to get my name in the local paper I hope when they do the T20 league round-up article. Only 3 or 4 bad balls, and plenty of great ones. 1st XI captain was playing which can never be a bad thing! Easily my best ever performance, I feel like I can't do any wrong at the moment, long may it continue.
The wickets were all high quality too. First one was caught and bowled off a top edge that I ran down the pitch to catch. 2nd one was a good ball but pitch-assisted as it stayed very, very low and clean bowled the batsman. 3rd one was plum LBW. 4th was a great clean bowled, drift and turn through the gate having pitched on leg stump to hit the top of off! Then the 2 dropped catches in the deep on the legside.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
There you go there's that recommendation that you should bowl Top-Spinners and over-spun Leg Breaks. If you're getting the amount of spin you say you are they're gonna be deadly balls. Bloke at my old club who held the club records used to bowl pretty rapid top-spinners that would dip radically at the end of their flight, from the side you could see it happening, no turn off the wicket unless it came accidentally, but the speed and sudden dip did for most.
I'm firmly of the opinion the overspun leggie should be the stock ball, as it allows the overspinner, square-spun leggie and backspun leggie to be variations; this means that you've got the option to bowl deliveries with more overspin/less sidespin AND less overspin/more sidespin as variations. If your stock bowl is the square turner, the batsman can work out that he won't get anything turning more than your stock ball, so the variations can only be straighter.
someblokecalleddave
Well-Known Member
I think the purists would agree with you and I'm coming round to that way of thinking too. I think you can have a bag full of obscure variations and maybe a leg break that turns with varying degrees, but a lobbed up Leg Break that loops and turns sqaure is easily played off the back foot. For me (And it's probably too late for it at my age) the new Holy Grail does seem to be speed combined with spin - over-spin. The slow lobbed ball, despite being bowled above the eye-line still suffers from being able to be read if there's insufficient top or over-spin. But a faster delivery with massive over-spin can be 'Spun up' above the eye-line with the impression of going to land at your feet or midway up the body to then drop out of the sky with loads of bounce at high speed has got to be something you're looking to be able to do. Then combine it with a bit of angle on the ball and you'd be causing problems? Sounds like another developmental point that take me over another year, that'll be 6 years now and I'm not getting any younger!!!!
For that reason, I reckon Philpott's argument that an effective use of the big turning ball is to bowl it on leg stump after bowling overspun leggies on middle and off, varying overspin with backspin. As you say, if you pitch a big turner on off stump, it'll either be called byes or wides, or, if it's short, it'll be cut. Though, as you know, bowling over distance is difficult for me and not something I've really tried with leg spin yet, I'm convinced that the best use of the big turner is to use the drift generated to square the batsman up, with the ball pitching around leg stump and spinning past the edge to off stump. Additionally, if you're pitching most of your deliveries between middle and off and just outside off stump, the flipper or slider can still hit the stumps or be an easy stumping chance, and the wrong-un or or offspinning flipper has a chance of getting though the gate.