Wrist Spin Bowling

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Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeah it's definitely as good as that frame and quality wise. It's not actually something that is owned by the college, but it belongs to one of the technicians fathers. She had it at work one day filming a sequence for a film they were making and it was pretty amazing. I spoke to her about this a few weeks ago and she was kind of luke warm about the idea, but the issue would be getting someone to bowl so realistically it's never going to happen. It's difficult getting my s**t together to even film myself bowling from hand to hand for my Leg Spin blog!

Blimey just looked at that again and that's 2000 frames per second! I still think the one I've seen is of a similar quality.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

We are going to head out to the nets now and put in few overs. We might work on bowling to lefthanders today.

There are a couple of good young rep lefthanders at indoors and they play legspin really well and understand exactly what is going on, one of these kids plays a pull shot that David Gower would have been proud of, so maybe a wrongun will have to be employed ?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yep, I love the wrong un in those situations, I've only been able to use it in opposition to the Flipper and a weak Leg Break and it does up like a Kipper. It'll be so much better to be able to put one down out of the blue after a series of big turning leg breaks, the difference would be so radical! I can't wait. Let us know how you get on?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;349958 said:
I just read a little piece that former Australian off-spinner, Bruce Yardley, thought Warne held the rough side of the ball away from his face to help his drift. Has that been covered yet?
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I once had commented that using the shiny side and rough side could help the flipper or backspinner to swing in the air just like the arm ball for offspinners. I had suggested it when dave said he got loads of swing on his flipper. There must be BACKspin, a seam in the vertical position and the right atmospheric conditions. That is my theory , it can only swing if the seam is vertical as the roughness or smoothness on the ball cause difference in turbulence on different sides that results in changes on different sides of the ball and consequent movement or swing. You cannot get the same thing with overspin or sidespin, thugh you may get drift, which we had tried to analyse in previous posts. Well that is my opinion.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I think there must be some conspiracy; we are all getting injured at once: I was kicking a football around two days ago and sprained the middle finger on my bowling hand.

The updated leg-break page looks okay, we should perhaps add something on the pivot at some stage, but the stuff on the wrist flick looks fine.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;349958 said:
But the more I dig through old newspapers of the thirties and forties for stories on Grimmett, the more " mystery balls" I find, the closest in description to an actual flipper is a ball he called the "bogie" or "bogie bogie", the name is close to his favoured term for the wrongun ,he usually always calls the googly a " bosie ".

Most of these deliveries sound like flippers delivered with different wrist positions and some of his descriptions of how these ball behave sound like science fiction.
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Looks like warne followed grimmetts foosteps. He seemed to try to get a psychological grip on the batsmen before they even went out to bat. Grimmett had the advantage that they could not analyse his action, but warne had the advantage of drumming in the message of new deliveries throughout the net, radios, books and newspapers. They sound like Goebbels(or whatever his name was), the propaganda officer of the nazis. The batsman would be so frightened on facing that he would already be defeated.But, as someone said on the net, a ball can only go straight, break to off, or break to leg. It cannot do a pirouette before getting to the batsman.Even though as we know it is how the ball gets to the same spot with different over/side/backspin and speed do make a difference.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Something you may be interested in. Just found Terry Jenner's blog.

Terry Jenner - "The Spin Doctor"

Might be some interesting reading there. You can email him as well.

He is also undergoing some coaching clinics in London.

My July/August trip to the UK to condust coaching clinics is on again.
I am planning at least three seperate clinics on the following dates;
July 27-29....August 3-5....August 10-12.
At this time it seems probable the July 27-29 clinics will be at Chigwell School while the 3-5 Aug will be held in Leeds. I am still seeking a venue for Aug 10-12 but it is likely to be somewhere not too far out of London.
Click to expand...

Happy reading. :)
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Macca is grimmett on taking wickets the best book. Do the others he wrote add anything? I know you had posted something about this but could not find it. Also did you read the books by Peebles and another by Hollies (who bowled bradman with the googly in his last test)? Are they worth a look into?

Dave also does the spinners yarn have anything different from the art of legspin as I am tempted to try to get a couple of old books.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

The Edge Of Willow;349673 said:
I think there must be some conspiracy; we are all getting injured at once: I was kicking a football around two days ago and sprained the middle finger on my bowling hand.
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You shuld not be kicking the ball with your hand EOW, shame on you.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;349988 said:
There must be BACKspin, a seam in the vertical position and the right atmospheric conditions. That is my theory , it can only swing if the seam is vertical as the roughness or smoothness on the ball cause difference in turbulence on different sides that results in changes on different sides of the ball and consequent movement or swing. You cannot get the same thing with overspin or sidespin, thugh you may get drift, which we had tried to analyse in previous posts. Well that is my opinion.
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I think that's pretty accurate, although the seam doesn't always have to be straight vertical to swing; it can be angled and vertical. The turbulence can be caused by the difference between the smooth surface of the ball and the roughness seam. It's why a brand new ball without a difference in the roughness between the sides can swing.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;349670 said:
Macca, Saddo, Gundalf, EOW and anyone else that wants to chip in. Can you have a look at the updated Leg Break page on my legspin blog to see if I'm talking nonesense please?

Dave

Legspin bowling: The Legbreak
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Shaping up nicely. As you say, having small clips demonstrating what you explain in the text will really embellish the site. I know you are working on it, but well done for what you have achieved till now


Even pictures will enhance what your text says. I am sure this sounds obvious to you, but i just wanted to point it out. Oh and maybe send them as an attachment to jenner or philpott for comment. Be careful about the copyright though, after all that hard work.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;349988 said:
I once had commented that using the shiny side and rough side could help the flipper or backspinner to swing in the air just like the arm ball for offspinners. I had suggested it when dave said he got loads of swing on his flipper. There must be BACKspin, a seam in the vertical position and the right atmospheric conditions. That is my theory , it can only swing if the seam is vertical as the roughness or smoothness on the ball cause difference in turbulence on different sides that results in changes on different sides of the ball and consequent movement or swing. You cannot get the same thing with overspin or sidespin, thugh you may get drift, which we had tried to analyse in previous posts. Well that is my opinion.
Click to expand...

I will have to get Yardleys exact quote from the library, Yardley did use more swing than most offspinners because he started out as a swing and seam bowler, but he might not have known what was going on with Warne, although legspinners can get backspin if they want. It might have been an old quote too, in the early days a lot of the former players and commentators didn't know what Warne was doing because they hadn't seen anyone that good before.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;349755 said:
You shuld not be kicking the ball with your hand EOW, shame on you.
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Heh, I should of specified: it was aussie rules. I went up for a mark, misjudged it slightly and the ball took the top of my fingers, bending them the wrong way. It must have really caught the middle finger; all my other fingers are fine.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;349992 said:
Macca is grimmett on taking wickets the best book. Do the others he wrote add anything? I know you had posted something about this but could not find it. Also did you read the books by Peebles and another by Hollies (who bowled bradman with the googly in his last test)? Are they worth a look into?

Dave also does the spinners yarn have anything different from the art of legspin as I am tempted to try to get a couple of old books.
Click to expand...

I'm enjoying them both. I'm halfway through Spinners Yarn which is an odd book. It's written as a series of anecdotes all quite seperate from each other and not in any order at all. I've not finished, but the thing I'm getting from the book is that Philpott was wholly immersed in cricket and appreciated every aspect of it and how it made his life so rich. It's odd but very readable.

The Grimmett book I'm about half way through but I've got to go back a few pages because it's confused me in it's technical detail. I'm a bit baffled by some of Grimmetts descriptions of some of the basic Wrist Spin deliveries.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

We came across a surface at the nets with a damp carpet on concrete that meant you could not get the ball to grip at all and as a consequence no side spin whatsoever, We dont come across such a surface that often, but I could see the seam clearly and no matter how hard you ripped it, you could not get any turn. Normally in the same net we get loads of spin.

You get drift and drop but once it pitches it comes on like a topspinner sometimes it looks like a small wrongun but is actually just the ball coming on with the arm. It is on such a surface that Philpott says backspin needs to be introduced if you want to spin it, but we just worked on his topspinner anyway.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

The Edge Of Willow;349759 said:
Heh, I should of specified: it was aussie rules. I went up for a mark, misjudged it slightly and the ball took the top of my fingers, bending them the wrong way. It must have really caught the middle finger; all my other fingers are fine.
Click to expand...

You fooled me there. It happened to me once when playing basketball. Got really swollen. Had damaged my ligaments. Took a few weeks to clear. There really must be a curse though. Hope macca doesn't strain some sinew, as he seems the only one to be in ship shape form. Lets hope he does not get one of his classic grimmett books fall on his toes.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca i'm sure i've read somewhere as well that having the rough side on th right does help drift as well.

I know the sort of pitch your on about as regards waterlogged concrete carpet pitch from practicing in the winter, a complete backspinner or anything with some back spin like an arm ball is a beautiful variation as it skids through so much quicker than other deliveries.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

He hasn't posted recently - maybe he's laid up in bed with something serious! Anyway I had a bloke email me with this question and hopefully he'll join in with the comments soon, maybe let us know how he's getting on? Here's what he's asked me......

"hi and i am a newbie here so i thought i contact u first coz couldn't post any threads I wanted to ask u how to correct the googly syndrome b'coz i really want my legbreak back plss help.I even watched videos of terry Jenner teaching the variations but still no leg break.but i do get leg break sometimes but not the way i used to get them huge turns.

This is my second BIG problem.i started performing for my club and i played 5 matches and used to 3 wickets per match,this was my first performance after practicing
for 1 year and i was really appreciated and even got best bowler title in a tournament.
then after that i played another tournament and there it was my worst performance no proper line and length all short balls or full toss flighted balls with absolutely no turn.I couldn't just understand myself after such a good performance how could bowl so badly with no turn at all.

I really want to bowl with line,length and flight
plssssss help and also abt the syndrome"

The question has been asked by "Leg spin is my life".

One thing I think we need to ask is how old he is as there's that thing that relates to younger blokes having big growth spurts in between seasons and losing their leg break partly because of it. If it's got no connection with that then we must assume that he's bowling the wrong un (Googly) too much?

In which case there's a few key things as recommended by Peter Philpott in his book 'The Art of Wrist Spin' and a few things that I picked up in my recovery action plan.

1. Stop bowling Googlies (Completely).
2. Get ready for this possibly taking a long time (Took me 8-9 months).
3. Go right back to basics and start to throw the ball from hand to hand across your body really trying to give it a big flick (I really need to make the video and upload it to you tube don't I)?
4. Also with the arm extended out in front of you spin the ball back in towards your chest giving it a big flick.
5. Do this all the time - use balls of all types and sizes, fruit, cubes anything just spin it and get the flick off your 3rd finger going again.
6. Now I reckon this next stage is the key to recovery. Don't intentionally bowl any more Googlies, just for the moment be content to bowl the ball straight. When you practice do so with meaning, don't allow yourself to be distracted and focus 100% on bowling the ball straight with the palm of your hand and the under-side of your wrist facing the batsman on release. I found this incredibly difficult when I started out because all my muscle memory wanted to do was upturn the wrist anti-clockwise and dip the shoulder in order to bowl the googly. You have to be fully focused on not letting this happen.
7. Bowl straight balls for as long as it takes to get them straight, it may feel like you're almost bowling with your wrist turned so that you're almost bowling with a Karate chop action - if this works in order to get the ball straight bowl like it.
8. Bowling the straight ball (I did all this without cocking my wrist at the start) try and get the ball to leave the hand off the 3rd and 4th finger and hopefully this will start to produce a small leg break.
9. Bowl like that for a few weeks maybe even months until you feel comfortable. In the meantime you've been flicking the ball all the time from hand to hand.
10. Introduce the cocked wrist and unfurl the cocked wrist at the last second releasing the ball with the hand in the 'Traffic cop pose' palm and under-wrist facing the bat. You should then start to get the Leg break back.
11. Then start to work on the big flick.

It might take some months and you'll have to be patient. You're advised to buy Philpotts book and read the 8 Stages section. There are loads of ideas relating to flicking the ball up against a wall and observing the way it spins off the wall. Philpott says to spin the ball under-arm as much as over-arm in order to see how the ball spins.

Good luck!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

First of all welcome to the website. As a person with experitse in long hops and wides, I would be wary of giving advice.

Many of the points above, will help you to recover the leg break if you already bowl that. Some keys are similar to the above.

1) Stop bowling googlies altogether.
2) Start from hand to hand, and hand in front of you and spin it back to you. This gives you the feel of how the seam appears and how to flick the ball.(if you made the ball break a lot before it means you have the most important thing, the ability to spin)
3) Proceed to under arm bowling, and check that your seam position is good. You will also see the ball break from leg to off. Start over small distances.
4) Proceed to round arm.Here too start with small distances. Do not be worried about line and length. Just spin it and look at the seam. What I did once was I painted the seam white to be able to see better its position.
5) Next up will be the over arm. Again short distances and ignore line and length.For confidence avoid unresponsive surfaces. This is not cheating, but rather a way to gain confidence that you are doing the right thing.
6) Add the run up that must be RHYTHMICAL. Rhythm is the key at this stage as everything follows from this.
7) Go and get a five for and when you get the big leg break come back to us and teach it to us.

Be careful with the Karate chop and cop sign. I am dense and have still not understood it despite the patient explanation of the fellow forumites.

Film yourself bowl. You will be surprised how different you bowl to what you thought you look like. I was shocked how round arm I am, I would say less than 10 o'clock, and that whatever I do I tend to run my finger and wrist over the ball thus my tendency to overspin.

But the key is hours of practice and frustration, hope, planning, experimentation, elation, back to frustration, surprise at unexpected turn, more frustration as the next one goes straight, joy of a crossbreeze. The joy of reading something that you read on this forum that you are sure will give you the perfect leg break and the sadness that it does not always work out as planeed. But we are a hardy breed, another day another dawn, more hope and more practice, we do not give up, we are always in search, the search of our dream leg break, and to dream is to live, and to live is to have hope, and till there is hope we keep trying... good luck in your voyage of self discovery.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;349992 said:
Macca is grimmett on taking wickets the best book. Do the others he wrote add anything? I know you had posted something about this but could not find it.
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It is the best as far as humour and as an historical document but" Grimmett on Cricket" is the better coaching manual.
"On Taking Wickets" was written in 1930 and is at the beginning of his development of the finger clicking flipper spin, and most readers at the time would not have known what he was talking about I suspect, and even if they did he seems confident it will take you a few years to catch up.
He tries to confuse and worry any upcoming batting opponent who reads the book ( I think they were serialised in British newspapers during the 1930 ashes series,) he pretends he has developed his wrong wrongun (gipper) to such an extent that he might use it soon, he also had an Iverson style finger flicking gipper.
The whole book is a big wind up of all batsmen and a rallying cry for bowlers of all types, there is loads of humour and tongue in cheek tall story telling. It is a great book.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Well said Saddo! I'll just add this old gem....... You've chosen the most difficult thing to do in cricket and probably the least understood. Welcome to our world!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;350098 said:
It is the best as far as humour and as an historical document but" Grimmett on Cricket" is the better coaching manual.
"On Taking Wickets" was written in 1930 and is at the beginning of his development of the finger clicking flipper spin, and most readers at the time would not have known what he was talking about I suspect, and even if they did he seems confident it will take you a few years to catch up.
He tries to confuse and worry any upcoming batting opponent who reads the book ( I think they were serialised in British newspapers during the 1930 ashes series,) he pretends he has developed his wrong wrongun (gipper) to such an extent that he might use it soon, he also had an Iverson style finger flicking gipper.
The whole book is a big wind up of all batsmen and a rallying cry for bowlers of all types, there is loads of humour and tongue in cheek tall story telling. It is a great book.
Click to expand...

Thank you macca, his books seem very hard to find on the net by the look of it though, even from specialist sites.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Well, I won't comment on the googly syndrome, as I have never really had it; there was a stage where I cold bowl googlies but not leg-breaks; however that was because I didn't know how to bowl the leg-break, not because I started bowling the googly and lost it.

I will comment on the inconsistency though; I am the master of inconsistency: I will bowl a beautiful ball one delivery, then a leg-side wide half-tracker the next. The three main differences that I notice between the bad balls and the good ones are: where my head was, what my front arm was doing, and the timing of my pivot. On the bad ball, one or a combination of these three things is different. If my head moves about the ball will follow it: spraying the delivery off line. If my front arm pushes thorough weakly, I tend to drop short. If I mistime the release with the pivot it, I spray it down leg-side.

As for the lack spin; it could have been the surface. However, I have noticed that I can make a slight mistake on the release and get little turn. Sometimes I push it out with hardly any revs, and others I fluff the wrist position and bowl mostly over-spin.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

The Edge Of Willow;349843 I will comment on the inconsistency though; I am the master of inconsistency: I will bowl a beautiful ball one delivery said:
I agree fully with the points of the head, front/leading arm and timing of the pivot. The problem is the more you think about the action as many parts together and try to think of each part while bowling the worse it becomes. Two days ago, I said for 6 deliveries i would just think and feel my rhythm. Forget where the head was, where the leading arm, wrist etc were doing. I put a marker about 2 metres in front of the batting crease at around middle stump line. Of the six, one went down leg side, 4 pitched on off and broke further to offside and 2 hit the marker. That means at that time I was a third as good as grimmett ( macca tells us at the end of practice he had to hit the marker 6 consecutive times). I only thought about my rhythm. The above was better than I usually fare as I tend to land the ball too wide of leg stump.
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Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Here we go just sent this.......

Mr Jenner,

Can you send me some more details of your spin clinic in Chigwell as I have a 8 year old son who plays for Basildon and Pitsea cc here in Essex and he's learning to bowl wrist spin.

Can you also let me know whether I'd be able to attend too and watch from the sidelines as such, as I'm also a wrist spinner and I'd love the opportunity to see you coaching spin.

Dave Thompson
Basildon
Essex
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Saddo I had a bowl this morning and shot some video footage of me doing some stuff. I've not looked at it yet, but half way through I realised that I was shooting it with my shirt off as it was sunny and being as vain as I am in my old age I'm not sure whether I'm tanned enough to be on youtube with my kit off! I'll probably shoot it again. Anyway I bowled a bit and made my arm sore again and had to stop. Later in the day at family party where I just didn't fit in (We had this conversation before) I had a ball with me and tried the Iverson Gleeson grip and it seemed to work. So this evening with arm not feeling too bad I went and bowled a few Iverson Gleesons and they were alright, seemed to work as Top Spinning off-break balls.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;349991 said:
They sound like Goebbels(or whatever his name was), the propaganda officer of the nazis. The batsman would be so frightened on facing that he would already be defeated.
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Well of course Warnie is half German so he might have some nazi blood flowing through him, that might explain some of his more teutonic behaviour, especially towards "the old enemy".
But Grimmett however must have hated facism to allow his only child to volunteer to go half way around the world and pilot lancasters over Germany during those dark days. Victor Grimmett was awarded the D.F.C for bravery during the war and in Malletts book there is a photo of Clarrie Grimmett with his son just after he received the medal. He looks a very proud father.
I notice that Victor Grimmett has posted a comment on a webpage devoted to his father where he makes a few corrections he even leaves a return email address. I of course would not bother him with questions about his late father, I feel bad enough hassling poor old Ashley Mallett . It was in 2006 but shows he still cares for his fathers legacy
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I reckon the topic of conversation on the thread tonight should be about 'The gather' and how important this is. I've looked at the footage of my bowling today and noticed that as I gather, the ball hand is very high and the leading arm is lower. I then looked at Jenner on youtube and his leading arm is very high and the ball hand is much lower. What do the rest of you do or reckon is the done thing?

I've just looked at Warne clip with Mark Richards and he has high ball arm action as he goes into the gather, but he has a nice circular motion, whereas I lift the ball/arm early and leave it there for a much longer amount of time and it looks awkward. I'm wondering whether this has any negative impact on my bowling?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;350101 said:
Here we go just sent this.......

Mr Jenner,

Can you send me some more details of your spin clinic in Chigwell as I have a 8 year old son who plays for Basildon and Pitsea cc here in Essex and he's learning to bowl wrist spin.

Can you also let me know whether I'd be able to attend too and watch from the sidelines as such, as I'm also a wrist spinner and I'd love the opportunity to see you coaching spin.

Dave Thompson
Basildon
Essex
Click to expand...
Dave you could give him a demonstration of Grimmetts " Mystery Ball" from plate 14. Terry Jenner told me that it would be impossible to bowl such a ball!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;349953 said:
I reckon the topic of conversation on the thread tonight should be about 'The gather' and how important this is. I've looked at the footage of my bowling today and noticed that as I gather, the ball hand is very high and the leading arm is lower. I then looked at Jenner on youtube and his leading arm is very high and the ball hand is much lower. What do the rest of you do or reckon is the done thing?

I've just looked at Warne clip with Mark Richards and he has high ball arm action as he goes into the gather, but he has a nice circular motion, whereas I lift the ball/arm early and leave it there for a much longer amount of time and it looks awkward. I'm wondering whether this has any negative impact on my bowling?
Click to expand...

When I was in high school everyone was trying to be Thommo or Lillee but I was copying Terry Jenner, and one of the things that stood out was how high he got his non-bowling arm and how he kept it high, right until the moment of release. Jenner had a beautiful action in his prime, absolutely classical. Even today if I see my son do something in his bowling that reminds me of a part of Jenners action from those days I am more than happy.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I think I'd feel the same Macca, I even feel like I'm being a bit up-front with Jenner asking if my son can go on one of his spin coaching sessions as I'd have thought that this was intended for kids via an invite to their clubs or something?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

yeah classical gather is probablly the best as it gets the arm through at the standard perfect height but it wil vary with how round arm or vertical your arm comes over. Having your load up bolt upright isn't such a good idea just look at ian salisbury. The jenner like one is probablly best as a set one though, i know mine is probablly a little to low but it helps me spin the ball and upwards more.

i'm annoyed at getting no balled in the game that I detailed on my blog as I was actually no balled on my back leg following through going over the line, which it can.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I recieved another email from Ashley Mallett in which he says plate 14 is inconclusive and it gives no information, but he does concede it could be a topspinner. So that is some kind of resolution I suppose. But the more I dig through old newspapers of the thirties and forties for stories on Grimmett, the more " mystery balls" I find, the closest in description to an actual flipper is a ball he called the "bogie" or "bogie bogie", the name is close to his favoured term for the wrongun ,he usually always calls the googly a " bosie ".

Most of these deliveries sound like flippers delivered with different wrist positions and some of his descriptions of how these ball behave sound like science fiction.

I just read a little piece that former Australian off-spinner, Bruce Yardley, thought Warne held the rough side of the ball away from his face to help his drift. Has that been covered yet?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;350103 said:
Dave you could give him a demonstration of Grimmetts " Mystery Ball" from plate 14. Terry Jenner told me that it would be impossible to bowl such a ball!
Click to expand...

The aussies putting pressure on the poms here. I think I would be petrified trying to bowl in front of him. Good that you have a budding young leg spinner though. Whatever I would bowl would be a mystery to Mr Jenner.
 
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