Bring Back Reserve Grades??

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PremiersAgain

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Just would like to get some discussion on bringing back the reserve grades for next season.

I don't know how this was passed through so easily a few years ago but the demise of the Barclay and Money Reserve grades has been one of the biggest blunders of all time.

Now with new clubs coming in ect we have a situation where another 3 clubs will be having their first XI in B grade and probably have 5 clubs 2's dropping down to C grade.

The reason I have a problem with it is say for example you have a Barclay Shield side then your next side is in C grade it makes it to big a gap between sides for reasons of gauging form on players.

Did anyone think the reserve grades were not a good thing for the DVCA? Did anyone from clubland bring this up as an issue or was it purely the opinions of a couple of the executive??
 
Here we go again. This has been debated and the supporters of reserve grades lost.

If you want to see why reserve grades were abolished have a look at the Money Reserve ladder from 2008/09 and 2009/10. Panton Hill 2nd XI played a total of 24 games for 17 1st innings losses and 7 outright losses.

In 2010/11, Panton Hill 2nd XI were in D Grade and played 11 games for 2 draws, 6 1st innings losses and 3 outright losses.

In 3 seasons, 35 games, 2 draws, 23 1st innings losses and 10 outright losses.

Would you like to see Panton Hill 2nd XI in E grade or Money Reserve?
 
Warwick Todd said:
Here we go again. This has been debated and the supporters of reserve grades lost.

If you want to see why reserve grades were abolished have a look at the Money Reserve ladder from 2008/09 and 2009/10. Panton Hill 2nd XI played a total of 24 games for 17 1st innings losses and 7 outright losses.

In 2010/11, Panton Hill 2nd XI were in D Grade and played 11 games for 2 draws, 6 1st innings losses and 3 outright losses.

In 3 seasons, 35 games, 2 draws, 23 1st innings losses and 10 outright losses.

Would you like to see Panton Hill 2nd XI in E grade or Money Reserve?
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Right on the money Warwick Todd. Clubs were exploiting the rules (as mentioned on another thread) whereby the were basically doing the below every single year:

1st XI - Playing in Barclay Shield, sitting middle of the road.
2nd XI - Playing Barclay Reserve, cannot be relegated as the 1s are safe.
3rd XI - Playing in C Grade and were close to relegation/finals, so the club almost drops their whole 2nd XI to play the last 3 games in C grade, smash every side so that they save relegetaion (same theory to play finals) whilst the leave their 2s to get smashed because it doesn't matter if they finish last every year for 10 years if their ones are safe.

I get what you're saying PP, but forget whether you're playing in C grade, or J grade. C grade is Money Reserve. Not the C grade that we used to know. As for the "There's a big jump going to A grade" talk that people have. If your twos were any good, they'd win that grade and go up anyway. As for getting a gauge on how your twos players are performing. I would suggest if they are making runs, they go up. You can only make runs against who you're playing. That, and the fact that your coach should have some idea as to the ability of your players. If not, get a new coach.
 
Tongs said:
Right on the money Warwick Todd. Clubs were exploiting the rules (as mentioned on another thread) whereby the were basically doing the below every single year:

1st XI - Playing in Barclay Shield, sitting middle of the road.
2nd XI - Playing Barclay Reserve, cannot be relegated as the 1s are safe.
3rd XI - Playing in C Grade and were close to relegation/finals, so the club almost drops their whole 2nd XI to play the last 3 games in C grade, smash every side so that they save relegetaion (same theory to play finals) whilst the leave their 2s to get smashed because it doesn't matter if they finish last every year for 10 years if their ones are safe.

I get what you're saying PP, but forget whether you're playing in C grade, or J grade. C grade is Money Reserve. Not the C grade that we used to know. As for the "There's a big jump going to A grade" talk that people have. If your twos were any good, they'd win that grade and go up anyway. As for getting a gauge on how your twos players are performing. I would suggest if they are making runs, they go up. You can only make runs against who you're playing. That, and the fact that your coach should have some idea as to the ability of your players. If not, get a new coach.
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Agreed Tongs, only issue, and as you said it is the clubs fault, we are going to have 6 teams relegated from C grade this year (old Money reserve) into D grade next year who are clubs 2's.
8 Lower Plenty
9 Mill Park
10 South Morang
11 Thomastown United
12 Camrea Taipans
13 Bundoora
14 Whittlesea

So we will have clubs 2's playing others 3rds in D grade. Bundoora will be 3rds playing 3rds...
Good thing is that D grade is still 80 overs so you can get a fair gauge, but really the quality of bowling in particular after B grade falls away pretty quickly. Some of the higher end C grade team's bowling was ok, but some other pretty ordinary.

Just something clubs are going to have to live with in the near future. Penalty we paid for bringing in newer teams without going to 3 divs.
 
PremiersAgain said:
Just would like to get some discussion on bringing back the reserve grades for next season.
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This has been the case for a while now. I'm wondering if the only issue you have with it is that Plenty's 2s are about to get relegated. It's not that big a deal. It's true that you want to minimise the gap you have between your 1's and 2's but if your 2's aren't good enough to hold their spot it's bad luck. In reality B to C isn't going to be a huge gap.. especially when 5 sides are going down.

I think the only real issue is that it was better when you have the reverse fixtures going with 1s and 2s playing the same club... obviously that's being eroded now.
 
PremiersAgain said:
Just would like to get some discussion on bringing back the reserve grades for next season.

I don't know how this was passed through so easily a few years ago but the demise of the Barclay and Money Reserve grades has been one of the biggest blunders of all time.

Now with new clubs coming in ect we have a situation where another 3 clubs will be having their first XI in B grade and probably have 5 clubs 2's dropping down to C grade.

The reason I have a problem with it is say for example you have a Barclay Shield side then your next side is in C grade it makes it to big a gap between sides for reasons of gauging form on players.

Did anyone think the reserve grades were not a good thing for the DVCA? Did anyone from clubland bring this up as an issue or was it purely the opinions of a couple of the executive??
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You are quite right to be concerned about it.
What Warwick Todd and Tongs say about poorly performed MS Reserve teams and about MS clubs rorting the system because their MS Reserve teams are quarantined may well be correct.
The difficulty is that history shows that as soon as a gap of 2 or more grades opens up between a club's 1sts and 2nds (a) the jump is too big for the 2nds players (b) the standard of the 1sts starts to decline (and so does the standard of BS or MS as a result), and (c) the question becomes one of not if the 1sts will be relegated, but when.
Epping and Research are Dead Men Walking.
As will be any other BS or MS club placed in the same position.
 
Even back in the Barclay/ Money Reserve days there were 2 man teams playing Barclay like Hurstbridge who's 2's would lose outright every 2nd week and decent sides like Macleod who were stuck in Money.

I think the gap not being as far between your top sides only helps clubs. If you look at a Riverside guys like S.Doyle and Smythe who are now regular 1's players and by no means champions took a lot of B grade wickets.
 
PremiersAgain said:
Was a 3rd Senior division ever a serious consideration???
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I think that this idea has merit, and have done some work on a set up that could work, but we would need 1 more club to join the DVCA, and then a major shake up would need to be spoken about, with Barclay clubs given a years notice that the top level would be reformatted.
And a lot of those clubs are not big fans of change.
 
3 Divisions has to come in, especially now given B Grade will be littered with 1st XI teams playing 2nd XI teams- What's the point of those 2nd XI teams even showing up, theoretically? At the end of the day they're, theoretically, fighting it out for 4th/5th with the premiers coming from 1st XI's of TU, PH and WH, most likely, in the first season, then whoever else comes in/out going forward.

A structure like this is what I think should happen:

Barclay Shield: 10 teams
Money Shield: 10 teams
Shield Grade X: 10 teams
All First XI's play for promotion/relegation in these three grades, no club's firsts can drop below Shield X.

Then we have our B, C, D, etc Grades.

All have 10/12 teams (that can be worked out), your B Grade is the premier standard of 2nd XI cricket, the best 2nd XI's playing against each other, the winners of B Grade can't be promoted to Shield X for the simple reason that it would mean you'd end up with 1st XI teams in B Grade again, not because they might not be good enough.

All teams in the B, C, D, etc grades play for promotion relegation under the current system, but it would eliminate that unfair advantage of 1st's playing 2nd's like we have at the moment.
 
captain cuzz said:
3 Divisions has to come in, especially now given B Grade will be littered with 1st XI teams playing 2nd XI teams- What's the point of those 2nd XI teams even showing up, theoretically? At the end of the day they're, theoretically, fighting it out for 4th/5th with the premiers coming from 1st XI's of TU, PH and WH, most likely, in the first season, then whoever else comes in/out going forward.

A structure like this is what I think should happen:

Barclay Shield: 10 teams
Money Shield: 10 teams
Shield Grade X: 10 teams
All First XI's play for promotion/relegation in these three grades, no club's firsts can drop below Shield X.

Then we have our B, C, D, etc Grades.

All have 10/12 teams (that can be worked out), your B Grade is the premier standard of 2nd XI cricket, the best 2nd XI's playing against each other, the winners of B Grade can't be promoted to Shield X for the simple reason that it would mean you'd end up with 1st XI teams in B Grade again, not because they might not be good enough.

All teams in the B, C, D, etc grades play for promotion relegation under the current system, but it would eliminate that unfair advantage of 1st's playing 2nd's like we have at the moment.
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We don't have 30 clubs to make up 3 divisions?
 
Soft Hands said:
We don't have 30 clubs to make up 3 divisions?
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Ok, how does this sound. Been working on for a while.
Barclay Shield - 8 teams
Money Shield - 10 teams
X Shield - 10 teams (same status as Money - not a 3rd division, maybe North / South style)

Barclay - everyone plays everyone twice during the year, home and away, in a one day and a two day game, making for a fair draw.

Money and X Shield - plays all 2 day games, and could be a top 5 with an extra week of finals, or top 4 as is, and finishes a week earlier so that the Barclay final is the showpiece and everyone can watch.

Top 4/5 from each of Money & X shield play off for finals as now, with the two premiers going to up Barclay and the bottom two from Barclay being sent down (1 to each division).

All 28 clubs 2nd XI's go into a pool and there are 3 divisions, B, C, D - with 10 in each grade and promotion and relegation throughout the 3 levels, this would allow the weaker clubs with 2's struggling, to play at a more realistic level and still be competitive.

Would only need 1 extra side to be entered into the DVCA - and would make Barclay a premier stand out comp, with a fair draw.

Thoughts.
 
For mine the worrying thing is this... Of those clubs it will take one club at least 3seasons to get promoted again in the current format.. A club might not survive that long in B grade..
 
I think the 3rd Divison has a lot of merit.

If we use the Northern Footy League as a test case, most people said the 3rd Divison would kill the clubs there but anything it has strengthend them making them more competitive and thus more enticing for potential players and sponsors.

I just don't think having clubs 1XI playing against other clubs 2XI is good for anyone, having one sided results week in week out.
 
WanderingUnity said:
Ok, how does this sound. Been working on for a while.
Barclay Shield - 8 teams
Money Shield - 10 teams
X Shield - 10 teams (same status as Money - not a 3rd division, maybe North / South style)

Barclay - everyone plays everyone twice during the year, home and away, in a one day and a two day game, making for a fair draw.

Money and X Shield - plays all 2 day games, and could be a top 5 with an extra week of finals, or top 4 as is, and finishes a week earlier so that the Barclay final is the showpiece and everyone can watch.

Top 4/5 from each of Money & X shield play off for finals as now, with the two premiers going to up Barclay and the bottom two from Barclay being sent down (1 to each division).

All 28 clubs 2nd XI's go into a pool and there are 3 divisions, B, C, D - with 10 in each grade and promotion and relegation throughout the 3 levels, this would allow the weaker clubs with 2's struggling, to play at a more realistic level and still be competitive.

Would only need 1 extra side to be entered into the DVCA - and would make Barclay a premier stand out comp, with a fair draw.

Thoughts.
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Are MS and XS quarantined from relegation? If so, then aren't you leaving it open to clubs to abuse the system as Tongs said they used to do - except now they can do it with their 1sts rather than their 2nds?
 
Declaration Bowler said:
Are MS and XS quarantined from relegation? If so, then aren't you leaving it open to clubs to abuse the system as Tongs said they used to do - except now they can do it with their 1sts rather than their 2nds?
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This can happen now, this year and in past years, we have had a MS or BS club bottom out and finish clear bottom (if this year was only 1 team from MS, all others could see that Whittlesea were going down, and could have stacked their 2nds).
I would think that 1st XI sides would be played to full strength (naive, I know) each week, but see the chance of manufactured results.
Could the DVCA have a financial incentive (or some other reward - home T20 games the following year [we averaged $1,000 per night profit from these games]) based on ladder position.
Just an idea, but can already here the sniggers and bullets.
Please give your ideas rather than sceptism.
 
WanderingUnity said:
This can happen now, this year and in past years, we have had a MS or BS club bottom out and finish clear bottom (if this year was only 1 team from MS, all others could see that Whittlesea were going down, and could have stacked their 2nds).
I would think that 1st XI sides would be played to full strength (naive, I know) each week, but see the chance of manufactured results.
Could the DVCA have a financial incentive (or some other reward - home T20 games the following year [we averaged $1,000 per night profit from these games]) based on ladder position.
Just an idea, but can already here the sniggers and bullets.
Please give your ideas rather than sceptism.
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The Jika comp many years ago (maybe still?) had a rule to prevent this happening whereby if you had played 7 matches in a grade, you were not permitted to play in any of the grades lower than that grade thereafter. You could go up but not down.
The issue is then if you played the first 7 in say A grade, but are horribly out of form by the end of the 7th, you cannot get dropped to gather form. Makes selection around Christmas interesting. But better then than round 11.
Not an ideal solution but a possible solution.

I am in favour of 3 divisions. Better that than having maybe 5-6 first XI's beating up on the others 2nd XI's.
Mil Park as I understnad didnt win a game in MS, yet are undefeated in B. Maybe they picked up some players, I dont know but therein lies the differnece between the 2.
Most weeks the 2's are competitive but just not quite good enough. Going to be a tough year next year for the 6-7 2nd Xi's left in B grade.

How the fixture would work with only 10 teams is an issue? My thougths would be just to start the 2nd or 3rd week of October and play 9 x 2-day matches. Will help a lot of teams get over the hurdle of footy trips etc...

Anyone heard any whispers about who a new club might be? Bundoora Park were interested last year - are they going to have another crack?
Any others from the old HDCA ?
 
Ex Prez said:
The Jika comp many years ago (maybe still?) had a rule to prevent this happening whereby if you had played 7 matches in a grade, you were not permitted to play in any of the grades lower than that grade thereafter. You could go up but not down.
The issue is then if you played the first 7 in say A grade, but are horribly out of form by the end of the 7th, you cannot get dropped to gather form. Makes selection around Christmas interesting. But better then than round 11.
Not an ideal solution but a possible solution.
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The old HDCA had such a rule as well, coupled with a system where you could apply to the Exec for a permit to drop players based on their form.

Ex Prez said:
I am in favour of 3 divisions. Better that than having maybe 5-6 first XI's beating up on the others 2nd XI's.
Mil Park as I understnad didnt win a game in MS, yet are undefeated in B. Maybe they picked up some players, I dont know but therein lies the differnece between the 2.
Most weeks the 2's are competitive but just not quite good enough. Going to be a tough year next year for the 6-7 2nd Xi's left in B grade.
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Of course, if you had a third division coupled with the above rule, you would solve all the problems which were created by abandoning BRes and MRes.
 
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