Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

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Leggie Sunny said:
Can some one help me a bit with my bowling action. It far too slow. Its just tw-3 steps come togethe,and rip the 3rd finger across the ball.Could someone post avideo of a decent action to try to adopt also,some tips on bowling the quicker one as per arm position9i.e 12o'clock,11o'clock etc)?
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Who do you resemble or want to resemble as a bowler?

Generally speaking as far as arm position and speed, the more roundarm you go the more speed you can obtain, to a certain point. Grimmett used the ducks and drakes example of skimming stones across a pond by going roundarm.
 
Get a mate to Video your action from the side and from the front and post it up on youtube as we all do and we'll all comment - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJlM5gaJ93Y this is me and like you I bowl off of 3 steps - no speed really, but it works. As Macca said - what is it you're trying to do? I've seen small kids and older blokes than me take shed loads of wicket bowling really slow using leg breaks and Top-Spinners - nothing flash just good basic slow bowling.
 
I suppose warne is a good base i don't have any friends with a video cam so i can't send a video of an action :(,that video of Imran Tahir was helpful though, It showed me kind of how to jog up to the crease,while bowling. I was actually considering trying to bowl with a chawla-esque actoon sacrifing the turn,for speed just a while back.the problem is while I'm bowling I'm looking for the magic delivery way too much,that classic outside leg-round the legs dimissal.I'd like to adopt a better line to help with that.
 
striving for the magical delivery every ball is both productive and destructive at the same time. you will often hear Shane Warne philosophise about the mental aspects of leg spin. and something ive heard him say a few times recently is that in order not to get yourself in a rut during a match if youre not taking wickets, especially on a pitch that isnt offering much (he said it about Australias bowling attack during one of the recent Ashes tests), is to think to yourself before every delivery "this is going to be the best ball i have ever bowled". the desired effect being that you will put in that extra effort, and it motivates you even if things havent been going entirely your way. it is something Shane said he used throughout his own career, and you can pretty much pick the deliveries where this was true. he could conjure up an isolated magical delivery seemingly from nowhere to break a seemingly unbreakable partnership.

this is all well and good for a professional cricketer. they likely have full control over their bowling action, so even though mentally they are the same as the rest of us, and will likely fall into the trap of bowling the same boring deliveries if things dont go their way, they have the technical ability to bowl a magical ball if they put their mind to it. for club cricketers we generally dont have the kind of consistency required to bowl that ball on demand, so no amount of thinking about it is just going to make it happen.

so thats both the positive and the negative for someone who looks to bowl the magic ball every delivery. i myself fall into that category most of the time. you have the right mental approach to take lots of wickets. but at the same time the lack of solid technical ability makes it very difficult to achieve in reality what you picture in your head. and thus you can end up beating yourself up about failing to bowl the perfect ball, even if what you actually bowled was still pretty good! the end result of this is usually falling back into a safety mode, whereby you toss up safe balls every delivery with little purpose, just trying to find that elusive dot ball, or the occasional one that beats the outside edge. and good batsmen find that pretty easy.

with regards bowling lines to cover yourself against the above, off-middle stump is the safe line. outside leg stump bowling the batsman behind his legs, or turning it across him and squaring him up to find the outside edge is the dream delivery. but its also the most technically difficult line to bowl consistently. off stump to middle stump is safer because bad balls are harder to punish. if the ball is turning inconsistently then that natural variation (even though it is the result of poor control) becomes an attacking method, bringing LBW and bowled (and often stumpings as well) into play. when the ball turns it is going to be turning away from a line that most batsmen would be looking to play in the V (between cover and mid wicket). so you increase the likelihood of a wicket taking edge. batsmen that play sweep shots of any kind are risk takers (even though i do it myself all the time) and you shouldnt ever be put off by them attacking in this manner. and if youre getting cut or pulled then youre bowling too short. this line is by far the safest, easiest, and for most club leggies the most attacking line available. the majority of club batsmen will struggle with it as well. but you have to judge every batsmen on their own merits, as some will still take you apart.

one important thing to remember though is that length is critical. if you bowl on a good length every ball then your line can vary anywhere between a foot outside leg stump and a foot outside off stump, and youll still be a handful for club batsmen.
 
problem is the batsmen don't cut or pull,they just dance down the track and take half the deliveries on the full toss,which is why I'm look for a quicker delviery that can turn a batsmen's over-aggresion into a wicket,I'm 16 atm so when I play aginst older folk they tend to dance down the pitch A LOT. No matter how much you rip the ball,if it doesn't land you're not doing much good :(. So to counter I try sharp leg breaks starting wide of the leg stump,they go DEEP back into the crease and comfortably pull for one's. All I have really is the big leg-break,a slider(by bowling the leg break with my thumb pointed at me). I don't evn know how to bowl a top-spinner,which is kind of why I was aking for like say a diagramatic representaion of the wrist position
 
Leggie Sunny said:
problem is the batsmen don't cut or pull,they just dance down the track and take half the deliveries on the full toss,which is why I'm look for a quicker delviery that can turn a batsmen's over-aggresion into a wicket,I'm 16 atm so when I play aginst older folk they tend to dance down the pitch A LOT. No matter how much you rip the ball,if it doesn't land you're not doing much good :(. So to counter I try sharp leg breaks starting wide of the leg stump,they go DEEP back into the crease and comfortably pull for one's. All I have really is the big leg-break,a slider(by bowling the leg break with my thumb pointed at me). I don't evn know how to bowl a top-spinner,which is kind of why I was aking for like say a diagramatic representaion of the wrist position
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youll get that a lot as a youngster playing against adults. senior players tend to be arrogant, and theyll always back themselves to smash younger players out of the park. especially with spin because you likely bowl quite slowly, so they have time to react. use their aggression against them though, its your biggest strength!! if they want to dance down the pitch EVERY ball then its easy to catch them out unless they are exceptional players. it depends on whether they are pre-meditating the shot, or reacting though (only good players will be reactive, 90% of the time youll find they are coming down the pitch regardless of what comes out of your hand). youll easily find out. next time someone does it, bowl the next ball 2 yards shorter and see what they do. if they still come charging then they are an idiot because there are easier runs if they stay back, and theyll likely end up blocking you, or badly executing a drive. if youre lucky they might even spoon it up for a catch.

bowling outside leg stump to someone dancing down the pitch will only really work if they miss the ball. youre mostly likely going for the stumping if thats the case, and if you have a chat with your keeper then you can bowl it MILES wide, and he will know whats coming, and then you stand a lot more chance. the same can be done miles outside off stump, communication is key. your best bet on line is simply to stick to your guns on middle stump, and adjust your length to the batsman. you want the ball to pitch on that same driving length as if he is staying in his crease, so you have to bowl slightly shorter. you can also bowl faster more easily with less flight here, but you still want to deceive the batsman so he misses the ball, so try not to take too much flight off. if it turns then the batsman is always in trouble.

personally ive got a pretty cynical methodology for dealing with those sorts of batsmen next season, but it depends on whether you can bowl pace or not (im not great at it, but im fairly quick). if someone wants to charge me once then il pitch it up and let them, see if they are good enough to get bat on ball. if they look shaky then il know ive got the better of them and il just stick to my guns. if they handle it well then il encourage them a couple more times with flighted leg breaks, and then surprise them with a 50+mph seam up bouncer. lets see what they do about that when they are 3 yards down the pitch with all their bodyweight on the front foot and the ball bouncing through at chest to head height. even if they are sharp enough to execute a pull shot, the man at deep back square leg is looking odds on for a catch! if they just scramble out of the way then a jog down the pitch and a stare (or if youre lairy then a few choice, but not unsportsmanly words) should do the trick, and you can bet they are either reluctant to come fowards again, or if theyre an idiot theyll go out of their way to come forward again and try and smash you, and likely get themselves out.
 
sadspinner said:
We might be seeing him in the odi against india and in the world cup rather than harris
http://www.espncricinfo.com/southafrica/content/current/story/494919.html
And here an interview with him and bowling some deliveries in the nets
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj32U-XvKiE
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Imran Tahir is one of the best leggies in the world at the moment, it will be good to see him play international cricket at last. he looked excellent in the matches i saw him play this summer for Warwickshire. supposedly he is back at Hampshire again next year (they signed Ajantha Mendis for 2010 but Sri Lanka wouldnt release him, so Tahir moved for a season), and if he is then il get along and see him. Hampshire will probably play a county championship game at Basingstoke again, and its like any other club ground so you can get really close to the action and get a proper look at the players from pitch level.

the video of him in the nets is quite good. the pros use the same methods as the rest of us for honing their accuracy. a marker on a good length, and just try to land the ball next to it every time! also interesting to see that someone who turns the ball big on county wickets gets about the same turn on favourable net wickets as i do :D
 
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Jim2109 said:
youll get that a lot as a youngster playing against adults. senior players tend to be arrogant, and theyll always back themselves to smash younger players out of the park. especially with spin because you likely bowl quite slowly, so they have time to react. use their aggression against them though, its your biggest strength!! if they want to dance down the pitch EVERY ball then its easy to catch them out unless they are exceptional players. it depends on whether they are pre-meditating the shot, or reacting though (only good players will be reactive, 90% of the time youll find they are coming down the pitch regardless of what comes out of your hand). youll easily find out. next time someone does it, bowl the next ball 2 yards shorter and see what they do. if they still come charging then they are an idiot because there are easier runs if they stay back, and theyll likely end up blocking you, or badly executing a drive. if youre lucky they might even spoon it up for a catch.

bowling outside leg stump to someone dancing down the pitch will only really work if they miss the ball. youre mostly likely going for the stumping if thats the case, and if you have a chat with your keeper then you can bowl it MILES wide, and he will know whats coming, and then you stand a lot more chance. the same can be done miles outside off stump, communication is key. your best bet on line is simply to stick to your guns on middle stump, and adjust your length to the batsman. you want the ball to pitch on that same driving length as if he is staying in his crease, so you have to bowl slightly shorter. you can also bowl faster more easily with less flight here, but you still want to deceive the batsman so he misses the ball, so try not to take too much flight off. if it turns then the batsman is always in trouble.

personally ive got a pretty cynical methodology for dealing with those sorts of batsmen next season, but it depends on whether you can bowl pace or not (im not great at it, but im fairly quick). if someone wants to charge me once then il pitch it up and let them, see if they are good enough to get bat on ball. if they look shaky then il know ive got the better of them and il just stick to my guns. if they handle it well then il encourage them a couple more times with flighted leg breaks, and then surprise them with a 50+mph seam up bouncer. lets see what they do about that when they are 3 yards down the pitch with all their bodyweight on the front foot and the ball bouncing through at chest to head height. even if they are sharp enough to execute a pull shot, the man at deep back square leg is looking odds on for a catch! if they just scramble out of the way then a jog down the pitch and a stare (or if youre lairy then a few choice, but not unsportsmanly words) should do the trick, and you can bet they are either reluctant to come fowards again, or if theyre an idiot theyll go out of their way to come forward again and try and smash you, and likely get themselves out.
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this is actually a good idea. ^^ As a matter of fact,i can bowl a quicker seam up delivery. I guess i'll work on this in the nets and report my progress,thanks ^^
 
Leggie Sunny said:
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this is actually a good idea. ^^ As a matter of fact,i can bowl a quicker seam up delivery. I guess i'll work on this in the nets and report my progress,thanks ^^
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doesnt need to be a bouncer either. sometimes just bowling a fast ball can catch people off guard. good batsmen dont fall foul to it that often because they can pick it as soon as it leaves your hand (you can disguise the run up and the grip, but ultimately your arm has to come through fast, so its easy to spot), and then they just block it out. but the kind of batsman that is charging down the wicket playing pre-meditated shots wont have as much time to react so it can work very well.

on the other hand a leg spinner probably doesnt need to use an "arm ball" of this nature so long as theyve got a good armoury of variations and have good control of them. the leg spin variations already cater very well to tricking batsmen that play like this. the top spinner is the obvious one as it dips in flight. you can give the batsman the impression of a full pitched delivery, tempt him forwards, and then he ends up stranded when it lands shorter than expected. or a big turning wrong'un can beat batsmen all ends up when they are slogging through the line.

then youve got the flipper, slider and zooter for batsmen that dont like to come forwards so much. the key is to set them up for it though. variations dont work in isolation and/or without purpose.
 
Leggie Sunny said:
so what like full leg-break,ditto,ditto,suddenly a quicker one from wide of the crease that dips shorter than expected?
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depends on the batsman really. tactics are by far the hardest part of bowling leg spin. lots of people can bowl a good leg break, but tactics can be the difference between no wickets and a five-for in a match situation. there is no hard and fast rule though, every batsman is different. its also important to set the field for catches against aggressive batsmen. having men in the deep isnt necessarily defensive if the batsman is determined to take you on. some batsmen prefer to nudge the ball around for singles, so then forcing them to go big becomes the attacking move. always try to attack though (even if defence is the best form of attack against certain batsmen). as soon as you go fully defensive, e.g. focus your attention on bowling dot balls rather than on getting a wicket, then you might as well bowl seam up medium pace lol. for example having 4 men on the rope on the legside would seem very defensive at first glance, but if its against a batsman that is trying to hit every ball for 6 on the legside then its actually very aggressive, and youre gifting runs elsewhere to achieve it. and i had a batsman dropped twice in one innings with that tactic this season.
 
Jim2109 said:
one important thing to remember though is that length is critical. if you bowl on a good length every ball then your line can vary anywhere between a foot outside leg stump and a foot outside off stump, and youll still be a handful for club batsmen.
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Yeah that shows you how big your overall target can be if you get up around a good length, and spin hard. That is two feet plus 9 inches wide what you describe in width and length can be 6 foot if you take a zone a yard from the batting crease to the 3 yard mark.

That is what Ashley Mallett described as the 'dinner table' sized target Warne had, plus he could pretty well land it on a dinner plate placed on that bigger target.

Jim they were really good posts you put up in response to Leggie sunny. A few tactics there remind me of some things we might work on.

With my young bloke we talk about all the situations that come along and how to deal with them but it is only after he actually comes up against it in a game does he really learn the lesson. His coach works with him too on how to deal with blokes charging down at you etc, and it always good to get advise from more than one coach.
 
wow,that seam up delivery was quick o_0,also we had a match today,one of the guys charged me once ofr 6,the next ball I decided to give it to him,and pitched nice straight and full,almost a yorker length and clean bowled him,he said later he idin't evn pick it out of the hand :). It looks like just becuase you're a legspinner you don't necessarily have to totally forego a seam-up delivery if you use to try to get a wicket and not in a say defensive Cameron White style. also got ANOTHER wicket when another batsman just came out of his crease to flick a widish leg side ball that he expected to turn,it just kept on going,the umpire gave a wide,but the leg umpire gave a stumping :)
 
sadspinner said:
The other day Shahid Afridi got a new zealender out LBW bowling a seam up at 130kph+. He usually bowls his leggies and wrong uns in the mid 80 mph.It is here link 4 just after 8 minutes when score was 73 for 8
http://www.cricketonlinetv.com/3rd-t20-nz-vs-pakistan-2010/
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i think that speed gun is over-reading somewhat, because that didnt even look close to 83mph, but it was definitely a lot quicker than his normal deliveries. Afridi is very quick for a leg spinner in the first place, and he can bowl seam up as well. having that fast ball variation isnt subtle or intelligent, but it gets the job done sometimes!!
 
Good to have Leggie Sunny on the forum - sounds like you're a very competent bowler - Biggun and a slider with your thumb pointing into yourself - way to go!
 
haha most people I know can get the toppie going with the thumb pointing towards the batsman,but I can't it always slips up,so to make for it I've worked on my slider. The slider actually tends to come out of the wrist quite easily to be honest. Anyway for a turning legbreak my wrist and thumb are almost pointing towards me,so a slider is just a little bit more,the thumb is about parallel above my line of sight
 
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