BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

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mas cambios

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BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

We have quite a few dedicated spinners on here and as such I'd like to try something out. As we all know spinners (well all bowlers really) are always looking for something new; that mystery delivery that will give them an edge over the batsman. What I want to do is to see if we can collectively come up with someone new, different and mysterious.

I'm not a spinner so this is where you lot come in. I need your input in order to see just what is possible and ultimately try it out (providing we come up with something).

First step is going to be looking at what is already our there. From offspin to carrom ball, I want to hear what exists. From here we can start looking at what else we can try and do with a ball and how to do it.
 
Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

Now there's a challenge! I thought I'd done it with my 'Gipper', turns out though some old Aussie git called Clarrie Grimmett invented it 80 years ago along with a bunch of other variations that no-one ever talks about (except us lot on the wrist spin thread) and he called it 'The Wrong Wrong Un'. But I have an idea so watch this space........

As for your list....... or us Right Arm Spinners we've got the following...

In the Round the loop type conventional Leg Spin catergory

Leg Break
Big Leg Break
Slider
Top Spinner
Wrong Un

In the Flipper catergory using the round the loop theory -

Flipper - back-spinning a la Warne, Jenner and Benaud using 1 finger
Flipper - back-spinning a la Grimmett using 3 or 4 fingers (More spin and swing)
Flipper - Off break
Flipper - Top-Spinning (Grimmett 'Mystery ball')
Flipper - Leg Break - The Wrong Wrong Un - Clarrie Grimmett

Slider - A la Warne - basically a seamers delivery with the seam across the direction of flight spun backwards
Knuckle Ball - a la Baseball players

I'm sure Sadspinner will come in with some Iverson Gleeson balls that are now referred to as the Carrom Ball.

Doosra
Zooter - whatever that is!
 
Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

Great start!

Hopefully many minds will make light work - there has to be some stuff out there that has never been tried and I want to find it!
 
Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

Dave has practically covered them all. Obviously even with the googly there are small and large googlies depending on the amount of side spin.

As regards the Iverson Geeson grip, Iverson bowled both the googly(his main delivery) and the leg break with the same grip


The off spinner mushtaq ahmed also has the Teesra/Jalebi ball, that seems mainly to be the flipper bowled by warne/jenner/benaud. But as he is an offspinner he had to call something bowled for the last 80 years something new.YouTube - Saqlain Mushtaq's Jalebi.mpg
YouTube - ICL 08: Saqlains Teesra aka Jalebi

Seems as though Mas is having some problems dealing with spinners, and is trying to get some secrets here! Hope this is not a trap.
 
Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

As regards creating a new delivery, I am very skeptic. Spinners are usually continually experimenting and are inquisitive by nature. I do not think any new delivery has been created since grimmett, but I may be mistaken. The only 'new' delivery is the doosra, but a few weeks ago I read that it had also been bowled in olden days, but I lost the source from which I read this. At any rate Boycott states that to bowl it you have to bend the arm, so the laws have been bent to accomodate the delivery.

And as others said before me there are only 2 ways it can break: leg to off and off to leg. It can bounce more from overspin or less from backspin. Deliveries are a variation on the above themes.
 
Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

The only thing I can think of is the potential of adding something to the bowling of someone that can bring the wrist through the bowling action from inside the arm a la' Mularidaran - it's tricky to describe and maybe physically impossible for everyone except for Murali. I can sort of fashion the action slowly using a straight arm rotation right through the action but whether it could be speeded up is another matter. I think if you do come up with something new it might possibly take months of working on only to find that it isn't that useful like the Wrong wrong un. I'm interested in Jim's work on the Off-spinning out of the front of the hand Flipper YouTube - someblokecalleddave1's Channel as he uses it and rates it whereas I'm not at all convinced, but having said that I've spent very little time bowling over 22 yards.

With regards this variation of the Doosra all it is - is a Flipper action added to the internal arm rotation out of the back of the hand delivery if you know what I mean!!!!
 
Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

I put some in the comments but dave has got all those plus some.
 
Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

whilst this is a neat idea, i think realistically it is impossible.

the hand has 5 fingers, and everyones arm and hand are in the same configuration. the joints can only bend in certain directions.

so unless youre a mutant with 6 fingers or something, or you are extremely double jointed, the possibilities have been the same for several hundred years. and the chances that someone else hasnt already tried what we think up now are remote.

from a leg spin perspective, there is a delivery that spins at literally every angle on every axis.

from an off spin perspective there is almost a delivery in every direction - there isnt, as far as i am aware, a backspinner bowled using a true off spin grip! so maybe thats the one thing you could try, but at the same time theres a reason why - the wrist just doesnt go there.

ive got a couple of fairly rare deliveries i can bowl, but neither of them are new. the first is an off-break flipper YouTube - offspinflipper1 this one i can genuinely bowl to a match standard. ive never recorded it actually working, the video above is only of it in flight, youll notice the seam is slanted backward and so it didnt turn off the pitch. ive had it turning as much as my leg break though, from 2 feet outside off stump and turning back to miss leg.

the second is a zooter, which very few bowlers have ever used. Warne spoke about it a few times in his early years but ive never actually seen him bowl one and had it confirmed. hes probably used it dozens of times when ive been watching, but ive never actually identified it, and as far as im aware not a single commentator has ever identified it either! maybe it doesnt even exist? who knows. i dont believe Warne ever realised the potential of the ball either. im yet to see for sure if it will do what i think it will (it seems to when i have tried it), but my theory is that it will be a flat delivery, that carries in the air, stays low off the pitch but also zips through faster than it should. much like the way Lasith Malinga bowls, his yorkers are essentially a 90mph Zooter, with a bit less spin on them!! the batsman will see the flat trajectory and expect the ball to be a little quicker, but they still wont be able to time it onto the bat.

i can kind of bowl it in 2 ways (neither way is consistent or very good at present). one is using a leg break grip, the other is using a flipper grip. but either way im not sharing how until ive got it sussed myself. firstly because im kind of selfish and egotistic and want to use it myself before anyone else "copies" it lol. and secondly because i dont have it working properly yet and i dont want to misinform people until ive got a sound technique for it.

with regards finger grips - a genuine baseball knuckle ball grip would be interesting, its REALLY tough to bowl a cricket ball with it though. Mendis has already revived the Iverson-Gleeson method so thats out. i cant think of anything else that hasnt already been done. i think the best we can achieve is to revive a method that hasnt been seen in 50+ years, which is what im hoping to do with the off-break flipper. i doubt we can find anything genuinely new though.
 
Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

I'm inclined to agree with everything you've said and I'm intrigued to see what you come up with the Zooter not that I've ever looked to see what one is.

The knuckle ball like many of the Baseball techniques are wholly reliant on the areo-dynamics induced by the particular tennis ball stitching pattern they have, which Cricket Balls don't have, so bowling with the Knuckle Ball hand/finger configuration you're never going to have the same affect.

The only one I can think of is the one where the arm comes over with the back of the hand facing a la' Murali facing the bat with the ball gripped like a flipper and Flicked (Finger click) from the palm before the arm reaches the 1 o'clock position. This'll break like a Leg Break and as far as I can make out may actually be how he bowls the Doosra - otherwise how the hell does he make the ball turn towards off like that? I used to have a video clip of the technique on youtube but have removed it. If anyone's vaguely interested I'll re-do it again and show you what I mean.

But to be honest I'm more excited by the revival of Grimmetts off-spinning Flipper and the prospects of Jim and other people trying this out in match situations and people trying out the Top - Spinning Flipper both deliveries seemingly confined to the dark corners of history seemingly 50 or 60 years ago and possibly re-instated by people on the wrist spin thread.
 
Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

Whats the most people reckon you can do with back spin?
I have mates who reckon that some spinner in our league can basically get it to sit up due to back spin but i'm a physics pupil and just with basic respect to f=ma with the "a" derived from the laws of motion you can accept that its physically impossible to make back spin alone make a ball rise perpendicularly (obviously im not thinking about having a complete pudding of a wicket were the ball can just dig in and plop up leading to the co-efficiant of friction being increased where it may become possible to rise perpendicular if the angles and forces are correct but id say the probability of it never occuring at once is 0.9999)

But as a seamer i would like to look at using some spinners tricks and gettin a ball to sit up on a length against the old men who camp at the crease for draws would be a nice ball in my armoury?
 
Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

phil2oo8;378724 said:
Whats the most people reckon you can do with back spin?
I have mates who reckon that some spinner in our league can basically get it to sit up due to back spin but i'm a physics pupil and just with basic respect to f=ma with the "a" derived from the laws of motion you can accept that its physically impossible to make back spin alone make a ball rise perpendicularly (obviously im not thinking about having a complete pudding of a wicket were the ball can just dig in and plop up leading to the co-efficiant of friction being increased where it may become possible to rise perpendicular if the angles and forces are correct but id say the probability of it never occuring at once is 0.9999)

But as a seamer i would like to look at using some spinners tricks and gettin a ball to sit up on a length against the old men who camp at the crease for draws would be a nice ball in my armoury?
Click to expand...

It might be topspin that he is using to make it sit up. Backspin tends to make a cricket ball skid through lower.

As for using spinning tricks as a seamer, Steve Waugh adapted warnes flipper for his medium pace stuff.
 
Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

Didn't Tiger O'Reily bowl Wrong Uns at medium pace and currently doesn't Paul Collingwood bowl some of his Medium Pace using the basic wrist spin grip to produce leg cutters?

With regards getting the ball to sit up suddenly and using back-spin using the Flipper http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wvix9j7IPgU on fairly rough grass some of my Flippers have done this in the past to some extent, but it may be the combination of the back-spin and the rough surface. I know that the Flipper when bowled should skid through low, but I've found that on some ocassions it pops up and similalrly with the Top-Spinner I've found that to be equally inconsistent bouncing in at a lower trajectory sometimes. I think that the flight has a lot to do with the outcome a good Top-spinner with dip as it should do then bounces higher. I just find both back-spinning and top-spinning balls react differently in accordance to flight, speed and the surface they come into contact with.
 
Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

Anyone tried this YouTube - Iverson Gleeson method I have a few times in games and have got on well with it, the impression I have is that it doesn't produce a lot of revs on the ball, but it comes off the wicket well and I found that I could flight it well and bowl it with a high degree of accuracy. I think I used it when my arm was bad (Medial epicondilytis) to give my ripping fingers a rest. Have a look at the comments with the video - they just depress me utterly. It's a tried and tested method and it works as far as I can make out so what those comments are about I don't know - maybe those bloked want to get out there and try it.
 
Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

phil2oo8;378724 said:
Whats the most people reckon you can do with back spin?
I have mates who reckon that some spinner in our league can basically get it to sit up due to back spin but i'm a physics pupil and just with basic respect to f=ma with the "a" derived from the laws of motion you can accept that its physically impossible to make back spin alone make a ball rise perpendicularly (obviously im not thinking about having a complete pudding of a wicket were the ball can just dig in and plop up leading to the co-efficiant of friction being increased where it may become possible to rise perpendicular if the angles and forces are correct but id say the probability of it never occuring at once is 0.9999)

But as a seamer i would like to look at using some spinners tricks and gettin a ball to sit up on a length against the old men who camp at the crease for draws would be a nice ball in my armoury?
Click to expand...

my slider sits up big time. but it doesnt rise higher. basically it is delivered in much the same way as a leg break, well flighted, not flat like a flipper. i reckon i can generate more revs in backspin than any other delivery because my entire arm is following the rotation of the ball. the same as a pace bowler can drag their fingers down the back of the ball to impart backspin. well i do that, plus i flick my fingers and wrist as well. ive recorded 1300rpm on my leg breaks in slow motion video, i reckon the slider can probably do more like 1400rpm.

it doesnt dip in flight like a top spinner, but it doesnt carry as much as a flipper. when it hits the pitch the seam grips, it takes a lot of pace off of the ball and the ball rises up sharply. because the pace has been taken off though it loses energy in the bounce, so it doesnt bounce that high, and then it drops back down very sharply.

compared to a top spinner, this dips in flight, loses less pace off the pitch and then bounces up because it has dipped (not as sharply as the slider), and because its lost less energy off the pitch it bounces much higher.

so to answer your original question - the slider most definitely can stand up off the pitch. if you look at it from side on then it wouldnt look how you might picture it in your head, the upward trajectory probably wouldnt be above 45 degrees. but compared to a normal delivery it stands up much more, and thats the batsmans perspective on it.

for your 2nd question, from a pace point of view - youre bowling twice as fast as a leg spinner, meaning the ball has to grip the surface twice as hard to have the same effect. theres no way youll be able to generate the revs. however, compared to your normal delivery if you can impart backspin onto a slower ball then i reckon you could get it to climb a little more steeply, and take pace off the ball when it pitches. the differences would be subtle, but subtle can be the difference between the batsman middling it or toe-ending it at 70+mph.

have a play with it, see what happens! try and get some side-on video to compare if you can, then you can see the difference in trajectory and speed. especially if you can get slow motion shots.
 
Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

degrees wise if you say a normal delivery went at an angle of 30 degrees above the horizontal after bouncing what would you say your slider goes?,,, im not looking for a ball to bounce more and carry on to normal speed to the batsmen just hitting higher up the bat because we can do that by flicking our wrists and hitting the seam, i literally mean i want a ball that grips, taking speed out of it, and rises from bounce at an angle close to 70/80 degrees so its more likly for the bat to hit the ball in the shot follow through and just help it to mid off.


Obviously we can't flick it out of our fingers at release because the tension in our upper arm is greater than that of a spinner, so the tendons in the hand don't have the ability to flick at fast arm rotation with enough spin imparted backwards,,,, and id imagine flickin a ball out at the batsmen 9/10 times would result with a beamer at pace,,,



The closest thing i imagine as a seamer we could bowl to get it sit up like i want is an off cutter with a hell of alot of spin put on it, on a fairly soft wicket, and thats only because giving it side spin would impart a force on the pitch in a perpendicular direction to the force of the ball in flight- reaction force of the wicket, and thats becuase perpendicular forces dont counter or effect each other.



Actually read that if you are interested, nice bit on spin at the bottom: The physics of cricket
 
Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

if a normal leg break bounces at 30 degrees, id say the slider probably bounces somewhere between 40-60 degrees. its hard to tell. from a side-on viewpoint, as said, it would look unspectacular. when youre staring down the wicket though everything looks more compressed, from both a bowling and batting point of view. so those 15 or so degrees of difference make a hell of a difference when youre playing the shot!!

70-80 degrees is physically impossible unless you dig a hole on a length and aim for the far edge of it lol. you also dont need to get it to stand up that much. just 10 degrees would be enough to throw a batsman off his shot. if you could just get it to lose pace off the pitch then that would cause a mistimed shot. it doesnt take much, the ball only has to arrive 6" later than the batsman expects and youll find the toe end. thats probably a difference of about 5-10mph lost from the pitch of the ball. the batsman swings for a 70mph ball, it arrives at 65mph, he scoops it to mid-off.

how you would spin the ball hard enough to achieve that is another story entirely!! but in theory it must be possible.
 
Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

I wouldn't say its physically scientically impossible to make it rise 70 degrees, but physically biologically it probably is.

How do you think a seamer could improvise to put backspin on the ball (i'm still fixated on backspin rather then top spin because we can do similar things already) clicking fingers just seems dangerous more then anything
 
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