BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

I wouldn't say its physically scientically impossible to make it rise 70 degrees, but physically biologically it probably is.

How do you think a seamer could improvise to put backspin on the ball (i'm still fixated on backspin rather then top spin because we can do similar things already) clicking fingers just seems dangerous more then anything

Yeah there's seemingly reasons to not bowl the Flipper when you're younger and I think everyone knows the stories of Warne knackering his arm supposedly bowling flippers. I can say that I have been suffering from medial epicondiylitis since learning the top-Spinning Flipper which requires a contorted wrist applied with the clicking action YouTube - Flipper Variation No 5 Clarrie Grimmetts 'Msytery Ball'

I think on the wrist spin thread we're all pretty much universally coming round to the idea that Grimmetts and later Philpotts description of the Big Flick combined with 'Round the loop' theory to produce the genuine 'Slider' is by far the best way to put back-spin on a cricket ball in slow bowling. I've no idea as to how much spin can be imparted dragging the fingers down the back of the ball as in a seamers delivery which when bowled with the seam across the direction of flight is a bastardised version of a slider that Warne uses and describes sometimes.

But yes sometimes when bowling Flippers your fingers get mixed up and yeah it hurts it feels like you're almost dislocating them sometimes - it's horrible.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

Is it a bit sadistic the fact that made me laugh uncontrollably?

Yep

 

[phil2oo8]

Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

that clarrie grimmett one looks convertible into something

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

Give it a go. Get the flicking sussed beforehand and then try bowling it. A lot of people say it's physically impossible - it's not I bowl it and it's one of my faster deliveries.

 

[Boris]

Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

Off spin anyone?

There a lot more deliveries that an offspinner can do then most think.

I am not a traditional off spinner.

For example the traditional grip is first and second finger placed on the seam so that it is horizontal and running across both fingers. Then the ball is released so that the seam spins at 45 degrees pointing towards the leg slip of a right hander.
I hold my grip so that my first finger from the tip to the middle joint is actually bent sideways and runs down the seam. Then my second finger is placed directly on top of the ball on the horizontal seam, and my third is slightly bent along the seam on the other side of the ball, but not as much as the first finger. This puts a lot of stress on the first finger with it actually bent sideways on the ball. I can then click without moving any other part of my body and can produce revolutions similar to that of a low turning leggy. Add in full body movement, wrist flick and pivot of the shoulder, hip and knee and I can turn the ball as far as any leg spinner, with similar drift. It takes some effort to control this though.

That is my stock ball most games. It allows for my normal ball to be a biggish turning ball pitched on a good line and length turning back onto off stump.

From there I can take it back to the traditional level, and bowl a traditional ball. It doesn't spin or drift as much but is deadly accurate. Good for a change up.

Then there is the top spinner, very hard to pick out of the hand because there is only about 20 degrees different in the position of the wrist. Then a large flick of a loose wrist can add high revolutions to a traditionally held ball. pitched full on off stump is the key because more often than not you will not plan for the drop of the ball and trick both yourself and the batsman.

Then there is the seamer. Yes the normal seamer. Do the same run up and bowl as a medium pacer would with the intention of swing and accuracy. Don't change your action so as to deceive the batsman that doesn't watch it out of the hand.

The big one, the doosra. I can pull this off about 50% of the time, and is not as hard as everyone thinks. Hold the ball traditionally, then rotate it slightly so that the seam is a little straighter. When you go through the delivery stride, turn as hard as you possibly can on your left knee (for a right hander) and pivot what you think is too much. Concentrate on trying to force your right side of your hip at the batsman, this works for me. Then because of this you will find your delivery arm moves in more of an elongated circle than usual due to the lengthened delivery stride. You are aiming to let go of the ball after is passes the popping crease and late. I concentrate on bowling it at the top of off stump on the full, so as to compensate for the lack of length you are probably going to get. As you release the ball the seam should be facing to about second slip and spinning in the same direction with the ball from behind the arm, bringing it down backwards. If you conquer this you can add a wrist flick to it, if your wrist allows you to (mine doesn't). Keep pivoting and turn very sharply and your follow through will probably put you off balance falling off to the left side of the pitch. This isn't that accurate, but who cares if you can spin it like that? Practice, practice, practice but ensure you are looking after your body because this one hurts.

The back spinner. Off spinners can use back spin for a heck of a lot of things. Generally it is to pitch on middle and leg and entice the big drive and to spin underneath the bat. The normal grip for this is to have your fingers in a wide pace bowlers grip in the tip of your fingers with the seam still horizontal. The aim isn't to make the seam stay upright here, and hopefully it will hit it and cause some unplanned deviation. Cock your wrist back as you come through the delivery and then have one very big flick to the end of it. This is reasonably easy to pick so I am attempting a 'thumb ball' where I place my thumb on the bottom of the seam and then my other fingers across the top of the ball. This allows the ball to be released with the hand side on so as to not pick it. Then there is a flick with the wrist and thumb to put backwards revolutions on it. Don't forget to force your body towards the ground in the follow through. So far my testing with this has proved inaccurate but hopefully I can get it working.

There is also the big spinner. Put the ball on the ground and pick it up without your thumb, and that should be about right, with your ball in the first three fingers. Then as you come through your delivery stride have your wrist cocked so that the ball points to the ground when held directly above your head, the wrist bent forward. Then as you come through the delivery have a huge pivot on the knee and foot and concentrate on flicking your wrist to snap it back. This will induce the ball to spin against the seam and if you manage to land it, it will turn a long way. Great for the ball way outside off stump and good to full length inviting the batsman to charge down the pitch and smash it, only to find it turned back and they are stumped.

Also varying your spin is important. Probably the only thing off spinners have over leggies is being able to reduce or increase the amount of spin to a great deal of accuracy. Being able to beat each edge of the bat is important.

I think I have created most of my deliveries but whether they haven't been used before or not is a different question.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

I wouldn't say its physically scientically impossible to make it rise 70 degrees, but physically biologically it probably is.

How do you think a seamer could improvise to put backspin on the ball (i'm still fixated on backspin rather then top spin because we can do similar things already) clicking fingers just seems dangerous more then anything

i think the only possible way is to drag your fingers down the back of the ball, and try to combine it with a wrist flick. you wont have the time or the freedom of movement to do anything else. if you try to force a finger click or a full wrist movement at 70mph i reckon youll do damage somewhere.

But yes sometimes when bowling Flippers your fingers get mixed up and yeah it hurts it feels like you're almost dislocating them sometimes - it's horrible.

relax your grip. i found the flipper grip hurt to begin with (mostly my forearm muscles, but they are strong anyway because of some very specific tasks i perform for my job), but you need to play with your finger placement until you can do it with a relaxed grip. use your wrist more as well, i give the flipper as much of a "big flick" with my wrist as i do the leg break. i find the 3-4 finger method is more stressful on the muscles than the simple 2 finger method, and i can generate pretty much the same revs either way.

it seems odd, and even unbelieveable, my eyes still think that they are being deceived. but i generate more revs with a completely relaxed grip than i can with a tense one. in flipper and leg break. relaxed is also a lot more accurate!!

 

[gbatman]

Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

I am a leggie and when i notice the batsman is picking my wrong-un i bowl a leg break spinning it with my middle finger. This means the ball comes out of the back of my hand but spins in the same direction as a leg break. If the batsman is reading it out of the hand they can be fooled into thinking it's a wrongun.

when bowling some offies i would bowl with an off spin action but spin the ball with my middle finger. This made the ball come out turning like a leg break. Not the greatest ball but sometimes was not picked by the batsmen.

 

[doggyz_rok]

Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

Jason Krejza has apparently created a new 'mystery' delivery which is much like the doosra but he doesn't bend his arm.
Does anybody know how this delivery is bowled?
YouTube - Jason krejza bowls khawaja with Doosra

 

[Boris]

Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

Jason Krejza has apparently created a new 'mystery' delivery which is much like the doosra but he doesn't bend his arm.
Does anybody know how this delivery is bowled?
YouTube - Jason krejza bowls khawaja with Doosra

It seems as if he is bending his arm a little and letting go later.

But that sort of delivery is not to be analysed but instead watched over and over and for the watcher just to say 'holy crap' over and over again.

 

[gundalf7]

Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

tbh it just looks like a well disguised leg break/leg cutter bowled off one of the later fingers.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

tbh it just looks like a well disguised leg break/leg cutter bowled off one of the later fingers.

it looks a lot like the method i use for bowling a slider, with less of a wrist flick. so it looks similar to an off break delivery, but turns back in slightly. it will be a backspun leg break so it does have to rotate much to generate some turn.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

it looks a lot like the method i use for bowling a slider, with less of a wrist flick. so it looks similar to an off break delivery, but turns back in slightly. it will be a backspun leg break so it does have to rotate much to generate some turn.

I'm with Gundalf looks like a badly executed Leg break/slider with a bent arm.

 

[macca]

Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

Greg Chappell has banned the teaching of the doosra from the centre of excellence in Queensland because he reckons it cant be done legally. I wonder if anyone has bowled Grimmetts doosra which is the flipper bowled upside down with the back of the hand facing the batsman and hand pointing to cover. Grimmett wrote that he occassionally bowled this ball and he never bowled one no-ball in 30 years of first class cricket !

 

[TheGreasyPole]

Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

Hi Guys,

I was thinking about this a few weeks ago.... new variations.

The only thing I can think of that might have some potential is the "Carrom Ball" an England Offie, Alex Loudon, bowls as a "wrong un" breaking to leg in his case. (this appears to be different from Mendis's carrom which is just an Iverson grip).

The ball is held with the Thumb, 1st and 3rd fingers and spin is imparted by a bent 2nd finger behind the ball flicking "out".

It doesn't impart a lot of spin. But you can place the 2nd finger either directly behind the ball (for straight but increased speed balls) to the left or to the right to spin the ball either way..... and all the deliveries are absolutely identical to the batsman.

At least....... this is how it was all described by Michael Atherton on a commentary I saw a year or two ago. He did say you have to get your 2nd finger REAL strong, and also that some other offie from the 60's used it and showed it to Loudon. Thats pretty much all I remember about it.

Frankly, I think it's pretty pants due to the lack of spin...... but it DOES seem to be a variation with a lot of potential for development into a new spin variation of some kind.

Perhaps, say, holding the ball with Thumb, 1st and 4th fingers...... so you can give it a two finger push.

If this could be pulled off, I think it might have potential as a ball that leaves the hand much faster than the arm speed would indicate.....pushed out by the two fingers behind the ball.

I'm thinking you might be able to add a good 10-15mph once the muscles are built up, and undetectably. Possibly a good 10mph AND some spin from the usual leg spin flick. It'd be a damn hard ball to bowl.

In any case....... it seems to be the only way of using the fingers/wrist on a ball that has not been fully explored. I suspect if there is a new variation it will come through this grip in some fashion or another.

Just wanted to chip in on this..... although (seraching the net) I can find no other descriptions of this ball by Loudon so all I'm working off is "Michael Athertons attempt to explain it" and as we all know, batsmen commentating on spinners frequently get it wrong.

It may be just a conventional Inverson grip.

Yours,

TGP

 

[hattrick]

Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

The One not mention is the chinamen and the googly. I think unorthodoxy has a place but it must be controlled.. Ie. Paul Adams and his frog and a blender action would do more harm to the bowler and is unlikely to be repeated continually.

As to something new - I would recommend that you all think about looking at some video from Abdul Qadir ... and Saqlain Mushtaq in terms of minimal body movement but being able to outfox the batsman. The thing that I would look at in my own mind is shoulder rotation and wrist work. The Murali effect is unnatural for anyone except him. Also being able to show the batsman as little as possible prior to release.

I must admit the thought posted here are stuff which certain academies and coaches should look at..

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

Greg Chappell has banned the teaching of the doosra from the centre of excellence in Queensland because he reckons it cant be done legally. I wonder if anyone has bowled Grimmetts doosra which is the flipper bowled upside down with the back of the hand facing the batsman and hand pointing to cover. Grimmett wrote that he occassionally bowled this ball and he never bowled one no-ball in 30 years of first class cricket !

I can't see how anyone can get their wrist and hand into that position, it's like a wrong wrong un gone even more wrong!!!!

Actually I've just stood up and done this 'Gipper style' and there might be something in this - but I reckon it'd take some practice.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

I must admit the thought posted here are stuff which certain academies and coaches should look at..

Blimey mate - there's an endorsement!!! Cheers.

Greasy makes a point about the fact that some of the finger spin techniques don't seem to put a massive amount of spin on the ball at all. I think I'm repeating myself again when I mention that last summer I had problems with 'Golfers elbow' and couldn't bowl that well and rested my arm from all the wrist flicking techniques for a short period and I tried the Iverson Gleeson (Carrom Ball) technique. Not being a ball I bowl at all, the spin I was able to impart was seemingly minimal. But I found it to be exceptionally accurate and despite the minimal spin it still turned off the wicket with quite some eagerness. So I wouldn't discount any spinning as having no potential at all - just some rotation and the seam hitting the deck first results in the desired effect.

 

[Boris]

Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

I can't see how anyone can get their wrist and hand into that position, it's like a wrong wrong un gone even more wrong!!!!

Actually I've just stood up and done this 'Gipper style' and there might be something in this - but I reckon it'd take some practice.

It is possible to bowl a doosra with a straight arm, it just hurts.

Hold a ball in the two fingered offies grip straight out in front of you, then turn the seam and your hand to face second slip. Then bring your hand down and see if you can get the ball turning with the seam pointing diagonally at second slip. It requires your wrist to be bent at 90 degrees straight back down the inside of your arm so that when the ball is released the back of the hand is being shown. Then as you release the ball you rotate your body around so that you release the ball as if you were on your wrong foot.

This does create a doosra and will spin as much as your off breaks will, but the reason it isn't used is that it is very easy to pick, and there are few that can change enough to make it hard to pick, such as Carrom, he did. If you manage to bowl it without twisting your whole body around you have managed to dislocated your shoulder . This sort of doosra would only be used successfully around the club scene where batsman aren't good enough to react to it even if they know it is coming, presuming they picked it in the first place.

The important thing is that it can be done and its not that hard. Just constructing it to make it unpickable is different.

 

[macca]

Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

I can't see how anyone can get their wrist and hand into that position, it's like a wrong wrong un gone even more wrong!!!!

Actually I've just stood up and done this 'Gipper style' and there might be something in this - but I reckon it'd take some practice.

Yeah Grimmetts "doosra" is like an exact opposite of his wrong wrongun( your gipper) but he wrote he did bowl the odd one for variation and he was not no-balled for it. He bowled over 73,000 balls in first class cricket over 30 years and was never no-balled once! That must be a world record, he certainly thought it was and was disgusted any time he saw a slow bowler overstep.

 

[gbatman]

Re: BigCricket Project: Create a New Spin Variation.

I recon Krazy has bowled the ball i have descriped, where you spin the ball with the middle finger rather then with the index finger.