Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

[someblokecalleddave]

None of the footage I've seen of the Warne ball in 1993 has a good enough resolution to allow me to see the seam position. From what I've seen of that ball, it drifts a long way, yes, but it also dips a decent amount too. That would suggest top spin. Not only that but the way the ball really kicks and spits would also suggest a decent bit of top spin.

I have heard about this tilt thing before. Frankly, I don't enough about that to comment one way or the other. But I would love to see whatever footage Woolmer had that showed the seam presented with the sidespin and backwards tilt on the ball. I've not seen any footage of Warne's bowling that showed any tilt. I have seen him drift it plenty with an upright seam.

This one shows all kinds of releases he had (including the slider out of the front of the hand):

Whoa! Good video, but what one are you calling the slider? I didn't see any with back-spin! Looked like a stock leg-break, an iffy top-spinner with a little bit of a scrambled seam, but having said that it looks to drift a fair very late during the latter stages of the drop? Another top-spinner with a very scrambled seam and then a ropey looking Wrong-un?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

I've just watched it again, both times I've watched it without the commentary, so I've not been swayed in my analysis by the commentators, as I finished I then saw 'Legbreakgoogly's' description where he mentions the Flipper, there was definitely no Flippers in that video! Anyway to my analysis/observations...

13-20 secs. This just looks like a bog standard 'Stock Ball' Leg Break, it doesn't appear to drift at all.

23-30 secs. This is the most interesting to me. This looks like a Top-Spinner with a slightly scrambled seam. But it definitely looks as though very late in the 'Drop' it drifts a lot, but then doesn't turn at all and goes on as Top-Spinner should.

36-37 secs. This is just a release sequence with not footage of the outcome, if anything this is the one I would expect people to call a 'Slider' or a 'Nothing Ball'. It comes out of the front of the hand with a very scrambled seam, but very little spin, although it looks like forward spin if there is any?

39-45 secs. This is an iffy Wrong Un/Googly (Warne always admitted to not having the best of Wrong Uns) with a slightly scrambled seam, it doesn't drift, but breaks towards leg.

46-55 secs. Release only footage with no outcome, another Wrong-un/Googly with a scrambled seam.

Good footage though, I've never seen any of these releases so clearly before, is there more?

 

[boogiespinner]

Dave can I again refer you to this page?

http://pencilcricket.blogspot.co.uk/p/magnus-effect-in-leg-spin-bowling.html

Features a good analysis on the drift of the perfectly square leg break, and also one landing slightly off the seam.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

I can't see the video, but I have seen it before somewhere, your description matches what I saw.
The delivery after the top spinner is the slider, every slider I have ever seen bowled by Warne suggests that he held it in a seam bowler's grip (not precisely the same, but you know what I mean) and used the ring finger to drag down the back and create a 45 degree backspinning delivery that looks like it's spinning forwards, almost like a googly, but is in fact spinning backwards.
I bowl a similar delivery, and I find that few batsmen can pick it, but the few that do comment on the way it spins through the air. It's not a dead giveaway, but you can clearly see it isn't a proper leg break.

Yeah I've tried that before and it's what I'd call a slider, it takes a bit of practice. I prefer the OBS approach.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Dave can I again refer you to this page?

http://pencilcricket.blogspot.co.uk/p/magnus-effect-in-leg-spin-bowling.html

Features a good analysis on the drift of the perfectly square leg break, and also one landing slightly off the seam.

Looking now, it's kind of making some sense. Is this in response to my Woolmer illustration?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Nope I'm still struggling to make sense of PC's illustration here

Is this the ball seen from the side, travelling from the bowler 'A' to the wicket on the 'E'?

 

[Cleanprophet]

36-37 secs. This is just a release sequence with not footage of the outcome, if anything this is the one I would expect people to call a 'Slider' or a 'Nothing Ball'. It comes out of the front of the hand with a very scrambled seam, but very little spin, although it looks like forward spin if there is any?

Yes, that's the one that looks like a slider, out of the front of the hand. Would have been nice to see the delivery land, but it just looks like a slider to me.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Yes, that's the one that looks like a slider, out of the front of the hand. Would have been nice to see the delivery land, but it just looks like a slider to me.

CP, can you make sense of Pencil Crickets illustration above and explain it? Does it mean that initially the ball is released with the seam rotating 90 degrees, but tilted backwards and then as it gets closer to the batsman it goes from being backward tilted to forward tilted? If so why and how?

 

[boogiespinner]

Nope I'm still struggling to make sense of PC's illustration here

Is this the ball seen from the side, travelling from the bowler 'A' to the wicket on the 'E'?

It is a little bit tricky. This is for the square leg break seam position.

What he has done is taken the side view, but rotated each ball slightly so that the arrow representing the direction of travel is facing the same way.

So instead of the seam being constant with the direction arrow changing as the ball rises and then dips, he is showing you the change in the seam angle relative to the direction of ball travel.

Thus it shows how a significant magnus effect is going to apply at stage E, to a lesser extent D, and to a small extent at C and A.

 

[boogiespinner]

Taking to extreme, imagine if you are bowling the ball off the edge of a cliff with square leg-spin. At point G, some way down the cliff, the ball is travelling straight down, with the seam perfectly aligned to produce a magnus effect drift to leg!

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Okay, I'm going to have to go back to Photoshop and do another illustration and present that to clarify my understanding so far.

 

[shahidpak]

Taking to extreme, imagine if you are bowling the ball off the edge of a cliff with square leg-spin. At point G, some way down the cliff, the ball is travelling straight down, with the seam perfectly aligned to produce a magnus effect drift to leg!

Or you could just bowl a flying saucer, thats why i always supported this delivery, when no one even mentioned it !

 

[shahidpak]

I've just watched it again, both times I've watched it without the commentary, so I've not been swayed in my analysis by the commentators, as I finished I then saw 'Legbreakgoogly's' description where he mentions the Flipper, there was definitely no Flippers in that video! Anyway to my analysis/observations...

13-20 secs. This just looks like a bog standard 'Stock Ball' Leg Break, it doesn't appear to drift at all.

23-30 secs. This is the most interesting to me. This looks like a Top-Spinner with a slightly scrambled seam. But it definitely looks as though very late in the 'Drop' it drifts a lot, but then doesn't turn at all and goes on as Top-Spinner should.

36-37 secs. This is just a release sequence with not footage of the outcome, if anything this is the one I would expect people to call a 'Slider' or a 'Nothing Ball'. It comes out of the front of the hand with a very scrambled seam, but very little spin, although it looks like forward spin if there is any?

39-45 secs. This is an iffy Wrong Un/Googly (Warne always admitted to not having the best of Wrong Uns) with a slightly scrambled seam, it doesn't drift, but breaks towards leg.

46-55 secs. Release only footage with no outcome, another Wrong-un/Googly with a scrambled seam.

Good footage though, I've never seen any of these releases so clearly before, is there more?

And yes the 36-37 one is the slider as its a 90 degree leg break bowled cross seam so it can bounce on the side and hopefully slide on , as far as i understand it

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Okay, have a look at this...

The ball is the back tilted one that Woolmer observes. On being released (F) the ball as PC (Pencil Cricket) says is doing nothing, it's travelling slightly upwards or horizontal and it maintains that kind of situation for most of the flight. Is it the case that the while the ball is moving through the air horizontally, the angle between the spin axis (which is maintained in flight) becomes increasingly acute as the ball start to slow down and drop. Am I to believe that during the early phase (F); The turbulence over the ball and seam especially has little effect...

This is because, the disturbance of the air across the seam and the ball is pretty much equal? Whereas once it starts to dip, the seam axis maintains it position, but the air moving over the ball because of the far more acute angle difference between both the Spin axis which is maintained and the air-flow angle is dramatically changed in the latter stages of the dip. Therefore far more seam v smooth area becomes a factor?

 

[boogiespinner]

Dave you are over-complicating this with seam effects!

This all applies to a cannonball.

Is it the case that the while the ball is moving through the air horizontally, the angle between the spin axis (which is maintained in flight) becomes increasingly acute as the ball start to slow down and drop.

Actually the angle between the spin axis and the direction of travel increases. It's this angle which gives rise to the magnus effect. When they are aligned, i.e. no angle, there is no magnus effect because if there was one, it would have to also apply in the opposite direction (that is indeed the case of the square leg break travelling precisely horizontally).

When there is an angle between the axis of spin and the direction of travel, there will be a magnus effect. The biggest magnus effect is when this angle is 90 degrees: when it is less than that, the relative magnitude is given by the cosine of that angle. So with the square leg break nearing bounce point, suppose the angle may be 30 degrees. Crucially this is enough to give half the magnus that would be achieved if the ball was flying saucered so the spin axis was perpendicular to the direction of travel at that point.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Have a look at these examples using foo

Dave you are over-complicating this with seam effects!

This all applies to a cannonball.

Actually the angle between the spin axis and the direction of travel increases. It's this angle which gives rise to the magnus effect. When they are aligned, i.e. no angle, there is no magnus effect because if there was one, it would have to also apply in the opposite direction (that is indeed the case of the square leg break travelling precisely horizontally).

When there is an angle between the axis of spin and the direction of travel, there will be a magnus effect.

Yeah you're right I am, but I get what you're saying, but I just keep coming back to 'But why'? This is why I'm not good at maths, I can't just accept things as being 'The case'. I must be really P****g people off by now! I'm currently looking at spinning footballs and it's making no sense whatsoever so far!

 

[Cleanprophet]

Wow, this is all getting very complicated and giving me a bit of a headache!



This one is pretty good for showing the natural ability of Warne. Above all else, it is big revs on the ball. But, he did bowl with a seam not so cleanly presented quite often.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Wow, this is all getting very complicated and giving me a bit of a headache!



This one is pretty good for showing the natural ability of Warne. Above all else, it is big revs on the ball. But, he did bowl with a seam not so cleanly presented quite often.

Yeah definitely, scrambled seam with plenty of revs looks very promising. Watching footballers putting spin on the ball is just confirming what I believe should be happening & completely contradicting what happens with drift!!!

Here, look at this, the bloke is getting his foot over the ball to create dip and around it to put spin on it - basically legspin/offspin - but the ball curves in the direction of the spin, not away from it

 

[boogiespinner]

the full explanations do seem complicated with picturing spin axes with dimensional transformations but the essence of the point is quite simple:

1) the flying saucer ball will exhibit the magnus effect when travelling horizontally (it is the best spin axis)
2) a leg break, with a bit of 'flying saucer', will also exhibit the magnus effect when travelling horizontally. Not so much but it's there

(this Bob Woolmer understood)

*therefore*

3) a pure-spun leg break will exhibit the magnus effect, drifting to leg, during the latter portion of flight because it becomes the same ball as (2) just travelling in a slightly different direction

 

[leftie600]

The interesting point that Woolmer makes, and you have to consider he has a team of experts and people that he obviously called on during his research is
that the ball previously described with the perfectly vertical seam, he says will not drift. What he does say though is that if the seam is retained at 90 degree but tilted backwards, that makes a fundamental difference and he says that the Warne ball that drifted the 9", the seam was presented as per my illustration below. He says it's the inclusion of the backward tilt is the factor that makes the 90 degree ball drift. Perfect upright 90 degree seam doesn't drift.

This is a visual of the Woolmer description.

A perfect 90 degree seam will drift when the ball starts to drop. The delivery in your picture will start to drift (with enough spin) as soon as it leaves your fingertips and get even more drift when it starts to drop.

Woolmer's experts are right in that a 90 degree seam delivery will not drift if it does not drop or rise.