Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

[Cleanprophet]

I rarely get the ball to drift and can't figure out how to and yet loads of people do it easily.

To be honest Dave, I think it can only be about how hard you spin the ball. I do think pace through the air helps too. If the ball is bowled around 40mph, I think it may have less chance of drifting. Spun hard and around 50mph should create drift always.

 

[KathleenActed]

someblokecalleddave1 9 hours ago
Mate, I've just been directed here by a bloke on a spin bowling forum - big cricket dot com. As I was saying about the fact that I can't get the ball to drift. He's shown me your bowling and you clearly get the ball to drift. Any idea what it is you do to get it to drift like that?

Hi,
There was no 'Eureka' moment for me. It was initially just a small movement that made me think my aim was off. Over time it increased until I could see it. If you are getting a sidespinner to turn a lot but never getting any drift at all, even into the wind, one thing to check is whether you are tilting the seam forward a bit, as suggested in an earlier post.
These are bird's eye view pictures:

1 Perfectly upright seam ought to drift some

2 seam tilted back a bit I would expect to drift a bit more

3 but seam tilted forward may hardly go at all even though it might still catch the stitching and turn plenty.
If you don't spin it smoothly with the seam it can be difficult to see this sort of thing in midflight.

 

[KathleenActed]

Says it's swing bowling so he may be dragging his fingers down the back of the ball somehow. But, if you look at his other vids he bowls Carrom Balls so it may be some kind of off-spinner with drift the other way???

It is a topspun legbreak. While the ball is nearly new it will swing in preference to drifting - it doesn't need to be backspun to swing. It won't do it for very long, I showed it just as a curiosity. Glenn Maxwell bowling offspin in the World Cup had problems with this, the ball swinging in to pitch on legstump.

 

[Cleanprophet]

It is a topspun legbreak. While the ball is nearly new it will swing in preference to drifting - it doesn't need to be backspun to swing. It won't do it for very long, I showed it just as a curiosity. Glenn Maxwell bowling offspin in the World Cup had problems with this, the ball swinging in to pitch on legstump.

That's a good point. Obviously, a brand new ball will swing more than an older ball and if the conditions are swing friendly, then it will swing a lot. You will very rarely see a spinner bowling with a new ball in those conditions because the swing bowlers will be all over that ball and rightly so. Personally, I very, very rarely bowl with a new ball anywhere (nets or in a match), so I've never observed the ball swinging away off a topspinning legbreak but it is certanly something you expect to happen. I'd be interested to see what would happen if a topspinning legbreak was spun with big revs with a brand new ball - would it still swing away or would the drift counter the swing?

 

[leftie600]

That's a good point. Obviously, a brand new ball will swing more than an older ball and if the conditions are swing friendly, then it will swing a lot. You will very rarely see a spinner bowling with a new ball in those conditions because the swing bowlers will be all over that ball and rightly so. Personally, I very, very rarely bowl with a new ball anywhere (nets or in a match), so I've never observed the ball swinging away off a topspinning legbreak but it is certanly something you expect to happen. I'd be interested to see what would happen if a topspinning legbreak was spun with big revs with a brand new ball - would it still swing away or would the drift counter the swing?

As you know it's dependent on the conditions and whether they are good for swing.

I do believe there's footage of MacGill on YouTube getting legbreaks to swing out in a test match (I'll need to find it as it's in one of those compilations). If MacGill was doing it you know there's big revs involved!

 

[someblokecalleddave]

someblokecalleddave1 9 hours ago
Mate, I've just been directed here by a bloke on a spin bowling forum - big cricket dot com. As I was saying about the fact that I can't get the ball to drift. He's shown me your bowling and you clearly get the ball to drift. Any idea what it is you do to get it to drift like that?

Hi,
There was no 'Eureka' moment for me. It was initially just a small movement that made me think my aim was off. Over time it increased until I could see it. If you are getting a sidespinner to turn a lot but never getting any drift at all, even into the wind, one thing to check is whether you are tilting the seam forward a bit, as suggested in an earlier post.
These are bird's eye view pictures:
View attachment 393
1 Perfectly upright seam ought to drift some
View attachment 391
2 seam tilted back a bit I would expect to drift a bit more
View attachment 392
3 but seam tilted forward may hardly go at all even though it might still catch the stitching and turn plenty.
If you don't spin it smoothly with the seam it can be difficult to see this sort of thing in midflight.

Nice one mate, good to see you on here! Yeah I've heard that before, I think Woolmer talks about the ball being angled backwards in his analysis of Warne's ball of the century. I'll have a look at it myself and see if I can spin the ball with the seam angled back and see if it makes any difference.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

That looks impressive hand-to-hand. I have a Samsung S4 and didn't know about the video facility. I just did some one-handed spin and catch with the other holding the camera, and I think got a modest 15-16 rev/s. (9-10 revs in 4.8s of 1/8 footage) As my main challenge there was filming the thing with one hand though (I got one throw in shot), I reckon I might have a touch more.

I think I know what is going on with the crazy spin rates of Warne/Swann. I don't think if you found them spinning a ball hand-to-hand, you'd see 50 revs/s. I think they wouldn't be far off us mortals. I think what happens is that the whole action combines so that spin is also generated from the pace of the delivery. A synergy. If you imagine a ball wrapped in string, you could throw it and as the string unravelled it would spin like crazy, the faster you throw the more it spins. I think that's kind of what is going on, and if you read the Philpott book he talks about 'ripping your fingers over the top of the ball'. This advice was given to me by Cleanprophet I think when I first posted on here and it was a revelation.

The ball I have always managed to really turn a stupendous amount is not the legbreak but the googly. Actually I am just realising typing this post that the secret of that is not a 'tweak' but very much the way it rolls off the fingers as it leaves the hand. In fact, I'd suggest to anyone trying to bowl a big turning googly - after warning them that they are on a path to madness - to try not tweaking the fingers actively at all.

That's a bit like my whip analogy and I think your analogy of 'You can't fire a canon ball from a canoe'.

 

[boogiespinner]

That's a bit like my whip analogy and I think your analogy of 'You can't fire a canon ball from a canoe'.

Yes I like your whip analogy Dave. The cannon ball one is not mine!

 

[Cleanprophet]

I do believe there's footage of MacGill on YouTube getting legbreaks to swing out in a test match (I'll need to find it as it's in one of those compilations). If MacGill was doing it you know there's big revs involved!

That's true. We may then be in the territory of saying that in good swing bowling conditions, a new ball or a ball in very good shape will swing before it drifts. In conditions of minimal swing, it may be different. But yeah, I would imagine there is footage of a legspinner getting that out-swing somewhere in a televised match.

 

[Thivagar]

No, that shouldn't matter much as to the direction of drift. To take the extreme case, a 'flying saucer' ball bowled rotating clockwise as seen overhead looking down will drift to leg. The opposite flying saucer ball will drift to the off.

In between these two extremes, it is somewhat confusing. The 'pure' leg break will drift slightly to the off when it is travelling up and somewhat more to leg on the way down if bowled at a reasonable pace as it goes down more than up (this is a simplified explanation).

Changing the angle of the spin in direction of the 'flying saucers' will enhance the leg-drift or off-drift respectively.

There might also be swing considerations if the ball is bowled fast enough to swing. I think a 55mph ball bowled into a 10mph wind may very well swing and there is, I believe, a seam angle around 60-70 degrees (ie a leg break with a little topspin) where the swing can reverse. I wonder if this was Shane Warne's secret to exceptional drift.

That looks impressive hand-to-hand. I have a Samsung S4 and didn't know about the video facility. I just did some one-handed spin and catch with the other holding the camera, and I think got a modest 15-16 rev/s. (9-10 revs in 4.8s of 1/8 footage) As my main challenge there was filming the thing with one hand though (I got one throw in shot), I reckon I might have a touch more.

I think I know what is going on with the crazy spin rates of Warne/Swann. I don't think if you found them spinning a ball hand-to-hand, you'd see 50 revs/s. I think they wouldn't be far off us mortals. I think what happens is that the whole action combines so that spin is also generated from the pace of the delivery. A synergy. If you imagine a ball wrapped in string, you could throw it and as the string unravelled it would spin like crazy, the faster you throw the more it spins. I think that's kind of what is going on, and if you read the Philpott book he talks about 'ripping your fingers over the top of the ball'. This advice was given to me by Cleanprophet I think when I first posted on here and it was a revelation.

The ball I have always managed to really turn a stupendous amount is not the legbreak but the googly. Actually I am just realising typing this post that the secret of that is not a 'tweak' but very much the way it rolls off the fingers as it leaves the hand. In fact, I'd suggest to anyone trying to bowl a big turning googly - after warning them that they are on a path to madness - to try not tweaking the fingers actively at all.

Thank you, you are probably right, maybe the speed of the delivery may increase the revolutions per minute. You probably had noticed that the revs starts of a bit slower and then accelerates as it gain momentum. 15-16 revs isn't bad, we must work on increasing the revs aka "spinning it hard" while we bowl over the 20 yards. I recorded my action by placing a pillow against my bed and slanting my phone against the pillow. I never really took the "tweaking" part seriously, I always spun them hard as I could using my fingers, lot of people assume it is all in the wrist, since it is called "wrist spin bowling". I use fingers more than my wrist and I also mentioned that i use my thumb to generate spin along with my 4th finger. First and second fingers plays some part as well. I noticed that my normal googly is spun with my 4th finger while my bigger googly is spun with my thumb. Smaller googly/normal googly has more revs but doesn't spin much regardless of the seam position while my bigger googly has lesser revs but turns more.

 

[Cleanprophet]

I noticed that my normal googly is spun with my 4th finger while my bigger googly is spun with my thumb. Smaller googly/normal googly has more revs but doesn't spin much regardless of the seam position while my bigger googly has lesser revs but turns more.

In all probability then, one of the googly deliveries has more topspin and the bigger googly will have a bit more sidespin. I would tend to think that the one with less movement into the batter but more revs would be the tougher ball to face.

I was doing some netting yesterday and was really ripping the topspinner/googly. I was just trying to get my arm through as quick as possible and get as many revs on the ball as possible. The aim was to bowl the googly. Some turned in and some went straight on. Doesn't bother me if they go straight on or turn in providing the line is tight on off-stump. But I was really ripping it as hard as I could and getting a lot of dip on the ball. I was very happy with it. A hard spun topspinner that dips big and bounces is a very, very effective ball against the lesser batsman.

 

[Cleanprophet]

Nice pitch to bowl spin on, but this ball by Yasir Shah is a ripper:

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Yes I like your whip analogy Dave. The cannon ball one is not mine!

May have been Liz Ward then?

 

[KathleenActed]

That's true. We may then be in the territory of saying that in good swing bowling conditions, a new ball or a ball in very good shape will swing before it drifts. In conditions of minimal swing, it may be different. But yeah, I would imagine there is footage of a legspinner getting that out-swing somewhere in a televised match.

The whole point of my video was to show that a legspinner's usual drift, which I have shown I get quite a bit of, will change completely to outswing if you (1) bowl with more topspin and (2) use a shinier ball, both of which decrease drift & enable swing.

Those outswinging legbreaks are spun as much as the balls I bowl that drift.

 

[shahidpak]

Yesterday I got the award for best second team bowler of the season. Very unexpected as I was quite inconsistent with the ball in some matches. Overall I had 17 wickets in 9 games @17, strike rate of 18, best of 6-35. Together with school cricket my stats are:
25 wickets @15
6 Caught, 8 Stumped, 6 Clean bowled, 5 LBW.
4 Left handers, 21 Right handers.
5 Googly wickets, 1 Backspinner wicket.
10 Maidens.
25 Wides.
I'm happy with these numbers but I'd like to be a bit more economical and focus more on accuracy and bowling with more over spin, particularly when the ball is wet or slippery. Luckily I have 6 months to work on this before next season.

Nice... How are ur stats so accurate?

 

[shahidpak]

I used to get drift but now i get les, i think its because now i bowl flatter, ill try that SeaM thing in the nets...
In my u15a match i got one wicket :
I bowled 2 leg breaks 1 googly that the batsman didnt notice, again 2 let breaks and 1 magic googly clipping leg stump, it was a wicket maiden....
They scored about 140, and i went in to bat at 3, i was dropped off the 2 ball (thank god) and scored the highest in my team ----------> 6 hahaha we got out for about 28 and lost.. I wanted to take my time but i had to try to hit boundaries because we only had about 10 in 5

 

[Cleanprophet]

The whole point of my video was to show that a legspinner's usual drift, which I have shown I get quite a bit of, will change completely to outswing if you (1) bowl with more topspin and (2) use a shinier ball, both of which decrease drift & enable swing.

Those outswinging legbreaks are spun as much as the balls I bowl that drift.

The point I was making was that swing is inconsistent. It depends on atmospheric conditions and also on the condition of the ball. The conditions you bowled in were obviously very conducive to swing bowling and probably conducive to drift too. You know that atmospheric conditions are a huge factor in the movement of a ball. Simply bowling in cold temperatures will create more movement. Heavy and humid conditions equally create resistance and more movement. Warm and arid conditions are the toughest to create movement. You bowl in those conditions with an old ball and you will get no swing and minimal drift. Equally, bowl in cold, humid/wet conditions with a new ball and it will move plenty.

 

[Cleanprophet]

Why would you want to swing a leg break? How does this help you take wickets? If anything, it just gives a batsman more width. I thought the whole point of movement through the air was to take advantage of the fact that it's difficult to track a ball that moves one way through the air and another way off the pitch. Away swinging leg breaks are like a fast bowler with loads of flight and a ridiculously slow pace that moves the ball a bit. Sounds like something I'd want to face while batting.

I think we may be focussing too much on the technicalities and nuances of drift and forgetting that it is only a very small part of getting a batsman out.

Absolutely. It is interesting to see that a legbreak can still swing when positioned correctly, but you are spot on, the out-swing just gives the batter more chance to get his arms through the shot.

Above all else, if a legspinner is bowling with a new ball in swinging conditions, then something is seriously amiss with your seam bowlers. If the ball is new and swinging, then no spinner should be anywhere near the ball. For me, personally, if I found myself bowling in those conditions, I would bowl with a scrambled seam to ensure that any movement through the air is drift into the batter. Ultimately, I want to know what the ball is doing so that I can pick a line and bowl it. The problem with using a new ball in swinging conditions is that you will only get that swing if the seam comes out cleanly. If you pick a line on middle/leg, thinking it will swing away and onto off or just outside off and you don't get the seam right, the batter will have easy runs off his legs. It's just an added complication. That said, I'd enjoy trying it in the nets to a few batters.

 

[KathleenActed]

Yes OK, I said earlier I just showed it as a curiosity. But a large part of a legspinner's ability to take wickets is from the extravagance of their movement. And if it is unusual movement this can be of some benefit, particularly against someone who is accustomed to a pattern. You all try variations with this in mind don't you?

 

[Cleanprophet]

Yes OK, I said earlier I just showed it as a curiosity. But a large part of a legspinner's ability to take wickets is from the extravagance of their movement. And if it is unusual movement this can be of some benefit, particularly against someone who is accustomed to a pattern. You all try variations with this in mind don't you?

For sure. I think I mentioned in a post a page or two back that a decent batter will get used to consistent in-drift and it is important to mix up the amount of topspin you use to also mix up the amount of in-drift and dip that you get.