Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

[chrisbell]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Sorry Chris I can't keep track of who is who on here what with all the pseudonyms on here and on youtube, you don't play in a team as I recall. With regards the balls I've found a ball that is exactly the same at my local branch of Decathlon and it's a ball endorsed by broad - might be the same as yours?

Nope, nothing to do with Broad - mine is the all-over red version of this, bought last year:
Wonderball - Gray-Nicolls

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

These decathlon ones are 2 tone - red one half white the other and weigh as much as a real ball but have the soft rubber outer, they've got the usual seam and therefore likely to split I reckon within a good few hundred deliveries and being hit, but Decathlon say they've got a 3 year guarantee which is nice, so I reckon I'll be buying some of them soon.

 

[chrisbell]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Sounds good, Dave! I would have replied earlier, but we just had a powercut here!

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

I'm in and out of the forum anyway looking at other stuff.

 

[shrek]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Bowled a full spell for second weekend in a row. Was brought on to bowl as soon as field restrictions went out in 12th over,(Was surprised by the amount of confidence my captain showed in me all of sudden ) and immediately had batsmen in trouble.

Both were well set - partnership of 50 runs or so for the second wicket, and the second ball he faced had enough topspin on it to bounce onto ground and almost roll back on to stumps. Other than that first over was not as eventful 4 singles of it. Second over I had a decent lbw shout - but umpire turned it down because he reckoned it pitched outside leg. In the next over one batsman (now in 20s ) tried to pull me, was so surprised by the bounce that ended up lobbing a simple dolly of a catch to square leg(inside the 20 yards from the wicket) which was put down. It must've lobbed for 15 feet and come straight down into his hands and out. Next over, the same opening batsman tried to drive, but got an edge to short third - I wanted a slip but my captain disagreed.

The opener tried chipping down the wicket, got beaten in flight and adjusted to knock it down a couple of times, chipped it over, the one-down batsman got a couple of leading edges that sailed over me and one ball that took his glove and died down towards gully area. A runout came in my over, and then another wicket fell at the other end. Opener scored 45, one-down bat scored 38. Then the partnership for the fourth wicket started. I had them tied down - one good shout for a lbw turned down against the no.4 bat, (googly, playing down the wrong line, hit outside the off stump apparently) from one end with the batsmen letting go a few balls and trying to score in singles. 3 overs of such set up later, I gave extra loop on one, (having bowled one step short of the crease) and had no:4 bat nick a drive only for the keeper to put it down. In my last over, I tried similar flight for no:5 bat who went for the drive, and gave a catch to short extra cover - which was again put down.(this one by captain who is usually a very good catcher). After that the batsmen were intent on just seeing me through and I ended on 8-0-26-0. But it could/should have been 8-0-24-3 (at the very least). Their no:4 scored a 50, and no:5 scored a 33 to take the total to 193 in 40 overs.
Batting at one drop, I played from the very first over when score was 0-1 to 25th over when score was 88-6. We folded at 134 off which I scored 34.

Unfortunately, the next day we had no keeper and instead of getting a bowl, I had to keep and watched our bowlers get carted(on a different ground) for 226 off 35 overs.We started off well 58 when first wicket fell, and I had a good partnership of 63 for second wicket when I edged the 5th legal delivery of a 12 ball over( that bowler went from bowling wides in offspin, to bowling wides of legspin, to medium pace, to slower offcutter) which triggered a collapse, but somehow we got to 227 with one wicket to spare off the very last ball.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Bowled a full spell for second weekend in a row. Was brought on to bowl as soon as field restrictions went out in 12th over,(Was surprised by the amount of confidence my captain showed in me all of sudden ) and immediately had batsmen in trouble.

Both were well set - partnership of 50 runs or so for the second wicket, and the second ball he faced had enough topspin on it to bounce onto ground and almost roll back on to stumps. Other than that first over was not as eventful 4 singles of it. Second over I had a decent lbw shout - but umpire turned it down because he reckoned it pitched outside leg. In the next over one batsman (now in 20s ) tried to pull me, was so surprised by the bounce that ended up lobbing a simple dolly of a catch to square leg(inside the 20 yards from the wicket) which was put down. It must've lobbed for 15 feet and come straight down into his hands and out. Next over, the same opening batsman tried to drive, but got an edge to short third - I wanted a slip but my captain disagreed.

The opener tried chipping down the wicket, got beaten in flight and adjusted to knock it down a couple of times, chipped it over, the one-down batsman got a couple of leading edges that sailed over me and one ball that took his glove and died down towards gully area. A runout came in my over, and then another wicket fell at the other end. Opener scored 45, one-down bat scored 38. Then the partnership for the fourth wicket started. I had them tied down - one good shout for a lbw turned down against the no.4 bat, (googly, playing down the wrong line, hit outside the off stump apparently) from one end with the batsmen letting go a few balls and trying to score in singles. 3 overs of such set up later, I gave extra loop on one, (having bowled one step short of the crease) and had no:4 bat nick a drive only for the keeper to put it down. In my last over, I tried similar flight for no:5 bat who went for the drive, and gave a catch to short extra cover - which was again put down.(this one by captain who is usually a very good catcher). After that the batsmen were intent on just seeing me through and I ended on 8-0-26-0. But it could/should have been 8-0-24-3 (at the very least). Their no:4 scored a 50, and no:5 scored a 33 to take the total to 193 in 40 overs.
Batting at one drop, I played from the very first over when score was 0-1 to 25th over when score was 88-6. We folded at 134 off which I scored 34.

Unfortunately, the next day we had no keeper and instead of getting a bowl, I had to keep and watched our bowlers get carted(on a different ground) for 226 off 35 overs.We started off well 58 when first wicket fell, and I had a good partnership of 63 for second wicket when I edged the 5th legal delivery of a 12 ball over( that bowler went from bowling wides in offspin, to bowling wides of legspin, to medium pace, to slower offcutter) which triggered a collapse, but somehow we got to 227 with one wicket to spare off the very last ball.

I'd be happy with just 26 off of 8 overs at the moment, it'd be nice to get 8 overs.

 

[Spiderlounge]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

I've finally got round to taking a camera to the club's nets with me and have put together a video of my bowling action from three different angles. The whole action of my upper body as I deliver the ball just looks so wrong and I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions. My bowling this evening wasn't great as you'll see but the action felt the same as ever.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

the biggest problem with your action is that its really energetic as you begin the run up, with a skip and then a run, then the second you go onto your back foot and into the delivery stride you just stop. all the energy evaporates, so youve got no follow through at all.

you jump very high into your delivery stride and lean quite a long way back, such that when you land it takes most of the forward momentum away. maybe try jumping less and just stepping into the delivery stride more so that you maintain the forward momentum.

your leading arm starts nice and high, and starts to lead the action. but you tuck it into your body and then leave it there. it needs to be a lot more powerful, tuck into the body, and then rotate through and around so that your shoulders and chest follow. at the moment your shoulders arent really doing anything at all. you should end up so that your bowling arm comes down past your hip and then across your chest, whilst your leading arm tucks in to the hip, then rotates outwards and around. this will rotate your upper body, and get the shoulders working, as well as forcing your bowling arm to be more powerful in the action.

then as a result your lower body will rotate, but you need to also force the lower body to rotate so that it is synchronised with the upper body, otherwise you open yourself up to injuries, and also because the rotation is very important in imparting spin. your trailing leg needs to lift up and step over an imaginary hurdle at the crease. in fact, it might even be helpful to put an actual hurdle there to force yourself.

your chest basically ends up facing leg slip (or sometimes straight on), having started side on. it needs to end up so that you start side on, and end up facing pretty much the other way with your entire body. then youll know that youre rotating and following through a lot more. i think that is basically all your action is missing for now, get that sorted first and then look at the finer details.

currently you release the ball fairly late in the action, and you may end up finding that you have to release it a bit earlier once you improve the rotation and follow through else youll keep dragging down. with such a roundarm action you have the advantage of being able to release in a much wider area and still be accurate. at present i think the late release is one of the main causes of the lack of follow through though.

there was an old guy that i played against for my old club (and this is in no way meant as an insult lol) who bowled leg spin with a very similar action to yours. he was very, very accurate and consistent, but lacked any real spin or pace. apparently he was a lot better when he was younger, but old age meant that he no longer had the body to follow through hard, so his action had devolved to one that required little effort. in your case you have that action (which for him was consistent and accurate), but you just need to add the energy back into it. its certainly an unorthodox action, but i dont reckon its a million miles away from some major breakthroughs. if you can sort the follow through and use your shoulders more it should be a lot more effective. dont be afraid of losing all accuracy and consistency when you start messing with the action, theyll come back with practice.

 

[chippyben]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Thank you all for taking the time to look over my videos. Firstly I was concerned by Liz Wards warnings over possible injury concerns with my new action. It seems that going back to a front on action seems the safest way to go. So I went up last night and just bowled the way I felt comfortable. Not really thinking of anything other than a nice rhythm and giving it a rip. Just trying to clear my head as I think Id over complicated things. After an over or two to my surprise I had it turning corners!! Tonight I had a good session too and just tried one thing at a time. I was getting good drive with my back leg which helped with my pace and the extra bit of effort I think helped me really "snap" my wrist and get good turn.
I am stepping across myself less but still a little bit as I feel it helps get strength through my pivot.
I am sure I still have a high action but Im making more effort and my big leg break is more roundarm than my other deliveries. I am getting my weight more forward through the delivery which is also helping with my length, i.e not overpitching so much. So now its practice and more practice and Ill get another video up here soon

 

[Spiderlounge]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

the biggest problem with your action is that its really energetic as you begin the run up, with a skip and then a run, then the second you go onto your back foot and into the delivery stride you just stop. all the energy evaporates, so youve got no follow through at all.

you jump very high into your delivery stride and lean quite a long way back, such that when you land it takes most of the forward momentum away. maybe try jumping less and just stepping into the delivery stride more so that you maintain the forward momentum.

your leading arm starts nice and high, and starts to lead the action. but you tuck it into your body and then leave it there. it needs to be a lot more powerful, tuck into the body, and then rotate through and around so that your shoulders and chest follow. at the moment your shoulders arent really doing anything at all. you should end up so that your bowling arm comes down past your hip and then across your chest, whilst your leading arm tucks in to the hip, then rotates outwards and around. this will rotate your upper body, and get the shoulders working, as well as forcing your bowling arm to be more powerful in the action.

then as a result your lower body will rotate, but you need to also force the lower body to rotate so that it is synchronised with the upper body, otherwise you open yourself up to injuries, and also because the rotation is very important in imparting spin. your trailing leg needs to lift up and step over an imaginary hurdle at the crease. in fact, it might even be helpful to put an actual hurdle there to force yourself.

your chest basically ends up facing leg slip (or sometimes straight on), having started side on. it needs to end up so that you start side on, and end up facing pretty much the other way with your entire body. then youll know that youre rotating and following through a lot more. i think that is basically all your action is missing for now, get that sorted first and then look at the finer details.

currently you release the ball fairly late in the action, and you may end up finding that you have to release it a bit earlier once you improve the rotation and follow through else youll keep dragging down. with such a roundarm action you have the advantage of being able to release in a much wider area and still be accurate. at present i think the late release is one of the main causes of the lack of follow through though.

there was an old guy that i played against for my old club (and this is in no way meant as an insult lol) who bowled leg spin with a very similar action to yours. he was very, very accurate and consistent, but lacked any real spin or pace. apparently he was a lot better when he was younger, but old age meant that he no longer had the body to follow through hard, so his action had devolved to one that required little effort. in your case you have that action (which for him was consistent and accurate), but you just need to add the energy back into it. its certainly an unorthodox action, but i dont reckon its a million miles away from some major breakthroughs. if you can sort the follow through and use your shoulders more it should be a lot more effective. dont be afraid of losing all accuracy and consistency when you start messing with the action, theyll come back with practice.

Thanks for the tips Jim, much appreciated. I'm going to have to wait until my left knee's feeling better before I can work on this properly, but I suppose the closed season is not too far away so I'll have plenty of time to work on things then and arrive next year with a much-improved action.

I think what I've probably done is gone down a cul-de-sac of starting off erratic then gradually slowing things down until I can control things better, rather than learning to control a faster action. Also there's probably a few bad habits in my action that stem from the way the car crash in March messed with my back a little.

 

[chrisbell]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

In addition to what I typed about the wrist flick, I've found that, as Dave (I think) said, feeling the ball staying in contact with the bent 3rd finger for a split second longer is important, both in terms of imparting revs and keeping the seam stable.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

With regards to Spiderlounge's video, having read that you've got a knackered leg, I'd say it looks to be the main problem with your bowling, as Jim says, you start out looking like you're really going to go for it and then you virtually seize up and stop whereas that's bit is where you should being going onto the pivot foot and coming round and over with some real oomph, but instead you fade away. I reckon you need to work on getting that knee sorted primarily so that you work on getting that aspect of your bowling firmed up?

I'd refer you back again to the Beau Casso/David Freedman video on you tube and copy both approaches to the 'Explosion' through the crease. Do it from a standing start and don't even worry about where the ball goes, just get that rotation and leg coming up and over and you'll probably find that the ball turns far more. Some of the other more technical aspects will then slot into place easier if you get this aspect corrected.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

In addition to what I typed about the wrist flick, I've found that, as Dave (I think) said, feeling the ball staying in contact with the bent 3rd finger for a split second longer is important, both in terms of imparting revs and keeping the seam stable.

Yeah I'm with you there Chris and I'm getting it bit by bit, I'm slowly changing the way I bowl. I'll get it in the long run - but it's still early days yet.

 

[chrisbell]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Yeah I'm with you there Chris and I'm getting it bit by bit, I'm slowly changing the way I bowl. I'll get it in the long run - but it's still early days yet.

Well, I'm still getting used to it tossing the ball across the body and towards the body!

 

[chrisbell]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

Yeah I'm with you there Chris and I'm getting it bit by bit, I'm slowly changing the way I bowl. I'll get it in the long run - but it's still early days yet.

ATM, I'm having a lot of difficulty with he finger action for the flipper - because of my loose joints, the seam ends up being scrambled. The answer seems to be to grip it loosely and click quickly, otherwise I end-up doinga weird finger/wrist action that scrambles the seam.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

As with all my deliveries I'm wholly unsure what my wrist does as it still always wants to revert back to the Wrong Un. This seems to even effect the Flippers. I can get the back-spinner and bowl that pretty much seam up, but the Top-Spinner and the Off-Spinner kind of merge into the same release I reckon and I'd love to be able to film the release as with my Leg Breaks and get a conclusive look at what I actually do when I release the ball. I'm still watching that camera that records at 400 and 1000 FPS, once it's less than 100 quid I may buy one, so till then it'll have to remain a mystery.

 

[Spiderlounge]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

With regards to Spiderlounge's video, having read that you've got a knackered leg, I'd say it looks to be the main problem with your bowling, as Jim says, you start out looking like you're really going to go for it and then you virtually seize up and stop whereas that's bit is where you should being going onto the pivot foot and coming round and over with some real oomph, but instead you fade away. I reckon you need to work on getting that knee sorted primarily so that you work on getting that aspect of your bowling firmed up?

I'd refer you back again to the Beau Casso/David Freedman video on you tube and copy both approaches to the 'Explosion' through the crease. Do it from a standing start and don't even worry about where the ball goes, just get that rotation and leg coming up and over and you'll probably find that the ball turns far more. Some of the other more technical aspects will then slot into place easier if you get this aspect corrected.

The leg's only been bad for a few days - I don't think I was bowling any different to how I normally would, it just hurt more... I think my delivery stride looks far too long, and it's clear my shoulders aren't doing enough. It's weird how I had this idea in my head of what my action looked like after so many months without filming it, and then it looks so unlike I imagined!

I think once the knee's cleared up I'll try bowling more like Dave does, i.e. minimal run-up, and then see if I can work my way back from there. I've got nothing to lose as clearly none of the energy I put into my run up actually goes anywhere! (actually thinking about it all that energy probably goes straight into my left knee, which is why it's knackered)

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

The leg's only been bad for a few days - I don't think I was bowling any different to how I normally would, it just hurt more... I think my delivery stride looks far too long, and it's clear my shoulders aren't doing enough. It's weird how I had this idea in my head of what my action looked like after so many months without filming it, and then it looks so unlike I imagined!

I think once the knee's cleared up I'll try bowling more like Dave does, i.e. minimal run-up, and then see if I can work my way back from there. I've got nothing to lose as clearly none of the energy I put into my run up actually goes anywhere! (actually thinking about it all that energy probably goes straight into my left knee, which is why it's knackered)

Beau Casson - standing start drill is the way to go.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

a scrambled seam flipper doesnt really matter, ive often wondered if it wouldnt be more effective that way. the seam plays little part in what makes the flipper the delivery it is, which is entirely in the flight. so long as the ball has backspin on it then it will exhibit the flatter trajectory and carry further in flight than the batsman expects. if it hits the pitch on the seam then in theory it should bounce more, so if the seam is scrambled and it hits the leather face instead then it should skid through and stay even lower and lose less pace.

all that really matters is that you have backspin on the ball. my zooters have very good seam position, but they also have a tendancy to sit up off the surface, rather than skid through like a flipper. i think a scrambled seam flipper could well be the more effective delivery.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

a scrambled seam flipper doesnt really matter, ive often wondered if it wouldnt be more effective that way. the seam plays little part in what makes the flipper the delivery it is, which is entirely in the flight. so long as the ball has backspin on it then it will exhibit the flatter trajectory and carry further in flight than the batsman expects. if it hits the pitch on the seam then in theory it should bounce more, so if the seam is scrambled and it hits the leather face instead then it should skid through and stay even lower and lose less pace.

all that really matters is that you have backspin on the ball. my zooters have very good seam position, but they also have a tendancy to sit up off the surface, rather than skid through like a flipper. i think a scrambled seam flipper could well be the more effective delivery.

Is your Zooter seam up and if so does swing at all. I'd say that a back-spinning flipper with a good up-right seam has it's merits in that it has the potential to swing, not that I'm a fan of the conventional flipper.