Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Four)

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someblokecalleddave said:
I wouldn't stake my life on it, but I reckon the High Pressure/Low Pressure description in milibars relating to weather in relation to the affect on things at ground level is another anomolous set of terms. My understanding as a surfer and someone who is interested in the weather is that when talking about weather systems and their pressure effects on things at ground level is thus. Low pressure weather systems e.g. those of 1000 milibars or lower cause a downwards force on the surface of the planet and affect the volume of water masses such as seas and oceans. Here in Essex for instance on the Thames, a low pressure weather system sitting in the north sea exerts so much pressure on the water mass in the Thames that any incoming tide that coincides with a low pressure weather system is then held in the thames and doesn't go out. If the weather system then persists, the second tide comes in with the already held back water and causes the potential for enormous floods. High pressure on the other hand is the reverse it has no or very little impact on the surface of the planet.
out
Hurricanes and Typhoons are associated therefore with low pressure weather patterns typically measured in 950 milibars and less.

http://magicseaweed.com/UK-Ireland-MSW-Surf-ChartsLowres/1/pressure/out/
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A possible explanation? A little bit of a stretch though.

(I just reread the above and it reads like jerkiness. What I mean is the explanation below... a possible explanation? It's a bit of a stretch.)

Tides are caused by gravity of the moon. Atmospheric tides are also caused by fluctuations of gravity from the moon. It would be logical that tides and atmospheric tides are affected in the same way -- water has a higher volume and less density at times of high tide. This means low pressure air systems during times of high tide (the moon causes high tides of strong bonded water molecules... imaging the effect on weak bonded air molecules).

Perhaps this might make plausible the myth that tides coming in cause swing bowling conditions. Weather systems move because high pressure systems move into low pressure systems i.e. particles follow the path of least resistance. If there is a high tide on the coast or on a weather system then there is an "unnatural" low pressure system created by the moon. Due to the low pressure, air pressure increases in regions close but neighbouring the low pressure system as air moves in toward the low pressure. Cricket grounds experience higher pressure as the coasts experience low pressure... when the tides are low then the coasts experience high pressure and cricket grounds in land experience low pressure.

This of course would only be true of some grounds who are in the exact perfect position for this to occur. This might be true of some English grounds. Of course I could just point at high pressure causing high humidity... and that high humidity is known the world over for causing swing.
 
Ha! This is the rubbish bit that I started to write and then realised it was possibly wrong! No the point that I was going to incorrectly suggest was that overcast weather conditions were associated with low pressure weather patterns and that the description of low pressure was odd in that it caused downward forces on water masses as there was evidence that low pressure weather was the key fact in the Thames flooding. But your piece was so assertive and made sense in that you said that high pressure caused down forces and made me question 35 years of poor knowledge, hence I went and looked and then found the answer in 'Surges'. The centre of an anticyclonic weather pattern (Low) as with a hurricane is the area where the pressure is its lowest and therefore there is no downward pressure and in fact that there's a bulge in the oceans beneath a low because it's not being subjected to high pressure.

So going back to the cricket ball scenario here we get the ball swinging when there's low pressure - anticyclonic weather, when the cloud cover is low and the atmosphere muggy. So that fits with every other situation. Needless to say then we struggle in Australia because the weather during your summer would be dry and sunny, high pressure and little moisture.

Does that then mean that as Brisbane is in a sub tropical area, at some times in the year you'd expect moisture laden starts to the day that would then quickly burn off and be replaced by blazing hot sunshine? At this time of year is that the case- does the day start muggy/humid and potentially offer swing conditions?

I've moved this over to the other type of bowling threads

http://www.bigcricket.com/community...-physics-and-other-factors.56994/#post-393930
 
doctortran said:
Let's just explain this magnus effect terminology. A golf ball has crevices on it so that it can go further in the air. Smooth surfaces drag (or experience difficulty moving through the air). Hence on a cricket ball it is harder to go through the air on a smooth side compared to a rough side. The ball swings or seams towards what is rough. The roughest thing on a ball is generally not the side of a ball -- BUT THE SEAM (on a brand new ball)! The more pronounced it is the more effect you will see. To maximise the swing you want it as smooth as possible so that the force is directed onto the direction of the ball.

Drift happens the same way. With large rotations, a nice seam, and a ball that isn't too roughed up... the ball will move in the direction of the seam.

Air is heavier than people think. "One cubic metre of air at ground level weighs 1210 gm. A cricket ball weighs 160 gm. A room full of air weighs more than most cricket players." (University of NSW). Imagine the difference that humidity, and even differing air pressures and hence air densities could make. Wind is essentially caused by high pressure wind particles moving towards low pressure areas. If you're in a stiff gale you are in an area in between two largely different air pressure zones (could be hundreds or thousands of kilometres apart). High pressure means lots of air which means accentuation of the effects of swing and spin.

Therefore wind at the WACA can make the ball swing and drift more. Rough surfaces in India can make the ball drift less. And big seams do make the ball drift and swing more.

P.S. don't get me started on reverse swing
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Hmm, what exactly do you mean by this? Do you mean the direction the seam is pointing at the "front" of ball as it is in the bowlers hand(e.g. for the overspun leg-break, the seam is pointing to first slip, so it would drift out)? Or do mean the direction the seam is pointing at the "back" of the ball in the bowlers hand(e.g for the overspun leg-break, that "end" of the seam is pointing to the leg-side so it would drift in?

Also, are you saying that there is not a pressure differentiation caused by the spin of the ball that causes drift? Or you saying that the aspects you mention above are in addition to this?
 
The Edge Of Willow said:
Hmm, what exactly do you mean by this? Do you mean the direction the seam is pointing at the "front" of ball as it is in the bowlers hand(e.g. for the overspun leg-break, the seam is pointing to first slip, so it would drift out)? Or do mean the direction the seam is pointing at the "back" of the ball in the bowlers hand(e.g for the overspun leg-break, that "end" of the seam is pointing to the leg-side so it would drift in?

Also, are you saying that there is not a pressure differentiation caused by the spin of the ball that causes drift? Or you saying that the aspects you mention above are in addition to this?
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Ok put it this way......

Air likes to hug smooth surfaces. It doesn't like to hug rough surfaces. So air takes more energy off (slows down) smooth surfaces and takes less energy off (does not slow down) rough surfaces.

New ball
Condition of the ball: Lots of smooth surface. So the only rough surface = seam.

So the path of least resistance is where the seam is pointing. The ball will go towards the seam, but not towards the back of the seam because the bulk of the ball will protect the back of the ball from air contact. So if the seam points to first slip it will swing towards first slip.

The Edge Of Willow said:
Or do mean the direction the seam is pointing at the "back" of the ball in the bowlers hand(e.g for the overspun leg-break, that "end" of the seam is pointing to the leg-side so it would drift in?
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So no.... i.e. the front of the seam is cutting through the air.

The Edge Of Willow said:
Hmm, what exactly do you mean by this? Do you mean the direction the seam is pointing at the "front" of ball as it is in the bowlers hand(e.g. for the overspun leg-break, the seam is pointing to first slip, so it would drift out)?
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If you bowled with a new ball.... theoretically.

Older ball looked after (still regular swing)
Condition of the ball:One side smooth and the other side rough -- the seam is also worn.

The seam is less pronounced and so the roughness of the non-shiny side of the ball becomes more but not totally dominant. The rough side is placed on the side the ball wishes to swing. The seam position alone will not cause swing without proper position of the ball.

Older ball with reverse swing
Condition of the ball: One side smooth and the other side rough -- the seam is also worn. However the bowler is quite quick and is putting the ball in an excellent position.

Reverse swing happens when the ball is moving so fast towards the rough side that the air gets turbulent. Imagine rubbing a nice lady -- feels good if it's soft... too vigorous and it starts to hurt. hehe.

In this case, the rough side experiences such air velocity that even though air doesn't like to hug rough surfaces.... it's simply forced onto it. The rough surface is all messed up and so air gets trapped and goes all over the place. Hence turbulence. The rough side loses its lack of resistance to the point that the ball finds it easier to move towards the smooth air hugging side. So the ball swings to the shiny side. Often you hear bowlers say you should keep the seam straight -- this is so the roughness of the straight seam which is similar to the rough side goes straight forward contributing no effect to the swing vector... it may well even swing later.

Drift for Spinners
Like Warney says, if it seams it spins. I say if it swings... it drifts! A spinner cannot get the ball to go quick enough to reverse swing it.... unless the rough side is point straight at the batsman getting all the air forced straight into the rough side. In that case under certain circumstances put the shiny side of the ball towards the side you want to drift it.

In other circumstances especially if you are bowling over spinners it pays to put the rough side toward where you want to drift it.

P.S.
The Edge Of Willow said:
Also, are you saying that there is not a pressure differentiation caused by the spin of the ball that causes drift? Or you saying that the aspects you mention above are in addition to this?
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In addition -- like causing different variations in Australia and England... and sometimes begin to swing... and then stops!
 
doctortran said:
Ok put it this way......

Air likes to hug smooth surfaces. It doesn't like to hug rough surfaces. So air takes more energy off (slows down) smooth surfaces and takes less energy off (does not slow down) rough surfaces.

New ball
Condition of the ball: Lots of smooth surface. So the only rough surface = seam.

So the path of least resistance is where the seam is pointing. The ball will go towards the seam, but not towards the back of the seam because the bulk of the ball will protect the back of the ball from air contact. So if the seam points to first slip it will swing towards first slip.



So no.... i.e. the front of the seam is cutting through the air.

If you bowled with a new ball.... theoretically.

Older ball looked after (still regular swing)
Condition of the ball:One side smooth and the other side rough -- the seam is also worn.

The seam is less pronounced and so the roughness of the non-shiny side of the ball becomes more but not totally dominant. The rough side is placed on the side the ball wishes to swing. The seam position alone will not cause swing without proper position of the ball.

Older ball with reverse swing
Condition of the ball: One side smooth and the other side rough -- the seam is also worn. However the bowler is quite quick and is putting the ball in an excellent position.

Reverse swing happens when the ball is moving so fast towards the rough side that the air gets turbulent. Imagine rubbing a nice lady -- feels good if it's soft... too vigorous and it starts to hurt. hehe.

In this case, the rough side experiences such air velocity that even though air doesn't like to hug rough surfaces.... it's simply forced onto it. The rough surface is all messed up and so air gets trapped and goes all over the place. Hence turbulence. The rough side loses its lack of resistance to the point that the ball finds it easier to move towards the smooth air hugging side. So the ball swings to the shiny side. Often you hear bowlers say you should keep the seam straight -- this is so the roughness of the straight seam which is similar to the rough side goes straight forward contributing no effect to the swing vector... it may well even swing later.

Drift for Spinners
Like Warney says, if it seams it spins. I say if it swings... it drifts! A spinner cannot get the ball to go quick enough to reverse swing it.... unless the rough side is point straight at the batsman getting all the air forced straight into the rough side. In that case under certain circumstances put the shiny side of the ball towards the side you want to drift it.

In other circumstances especially if you are bowling over spinners it pays to put the rough side toward where you want to drift it.

P.S. In addition -- like causing different variations in Australia and England... and sometimes begin to swing... and then stops!
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Oh, I should have been clearer. I was confused about what you were saying about swing in relation to drift only, as if an overspun leg-break were to go towards the direction that the seam was pointing(i.e. towards the slips), then it would be going the opposite(out) way to what the rotation of the ball would cause(in). I knew about swing alone already(if I knew you were referring to swing alone I would have known what you meant by talking about it moving to the direction the seam was pointing. .
 
I think young blokes team will win today. The team they play are a one man band with one outstanding sri lankan kid that is a rep player playing up a year. They have a pretty good legspinner too. But not much else.

Found a little kink that crept into sons bowling last week. I noticed i was seeing more of his hand at one point , where it's normally hidden, put him way off target. So we did a little bit of work on getting a bit more side on and getting back to his exact old action.

I like last week where we got to the game and i overheard one of the opposition parents say "oh yeah, that's right, this is the team with that really good legspinner"
 
macca said:
I think young blokes team will win today. The team they play are a one man band with one outstanding sri lankan kid that is a rep player playing up a year. They have a pretty good legspinner too. But not much else.

Found a little kink that crept into sons bowling last week. I noticed i was seeing more of his hand at one point , where it's normally hidden, put him way off target. So we did a little bit of work on getting a bit more side on and getting back to his exact old action.

I like last week where we got to the game and i overheard one of the opposition parents say "oh yeah, that's right, this is the team with that really good legspinner"
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That must be good - I love the idea of my kids getting that kind of recognition before they've even picked the ball up.
 
macca said:
I think young blokes team will win today. The team they play are a one man band with one outstanding sri lankan kid that is a rep player playing up a year. They have a pretty good legspinner too. But not much else.

Found a little kink that crept into sons bowling last week. I noticed i was seeing more of his hand at one point , where it's normally hidden, put him way off target. So we did a little bit of work on getting a bit more side on and getting back to his exact old action.

I like last week where we got to the game and i overheard one of the opposition parents say "oh yeah, that's right, this is the team with that really good legspinner"
Click to expand...

Good one, maybe his team mates should quietly suggest hes got a new ball like the ripper or zipper or some other menacing sounding name to build his reputation some more!!
 
doctortran said:
Ok put it this way......

Air likes to hug smooth surfaces. It doesn't like to hug rough surfaces. So air takes more energy off (slows down) smooth surfaces and takes less energy off (does not slow down) rough surfaces.

New ball
Condition of the ball: Lots of smooth surface. So the only rough surface = seam.

So the path of least resistance is where the seam is pointing. The ball will go towards the seam, but not towards the back of the seam because the bulk of the ball will protect the back of the ball from air contact. So if the seam points to first slip it will swing towards first slip.
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Surely this is counter intuitive? Air should like smooth surfaces , as rough surfaces generate more friction, and cause more aerodynamic problems/
and thus, when seam is pointed one way, the air is forced over the smoother surfaces ., and as more of the surface is facing that way, it goes towards the seam?

My english is failing me, dont know if you understand what I mean?
 
My kid didn't have a great day with the bat or ball today but his team had another big win, which is the main thing because it is all about team promotion next year. But he won the weekly fielding prize. Not that he did anything outstanding, just he got them walking in with the bowler every ball, so coach must have rewarded that.

I think he went for 10 runs off his 2 overs. Last week he hurt his finger so he was 12th man but he still bowled 2 overs that they haven't added to his figures on the website so they would have him 15/ 2/ 4/ 44 whereas i have him at 17/ 2 /4 /49.

Main problem was he didn't size this batsman up. He bowled a good length to an adult or big kid, maybe 8' in front of him but this kid was so tiny he just got right back and had no trouble and used the bounce, except a couple of deliveries which were pitched up.

Coach is playing it smart now and making sure everyone gets a good long bat and bowl at this stage. Pace attack will overtake my son in wickets now, which is inevitable, but i know our season is 2 seasons. They have a 6 week break, and that 2nd season is where my young bloke comes back strong every year.
 
I went down the nets yesterday and decided to have a muck around with the various variations for a bit of fun. I made a few videos of them from the keepers perspective.
See if you can pick me in these vids http://www.youtube.com/user/1chippyben?feature=mhum#p/a/u/2/-KyC8uw_pZA
http://www.youtube.com/user/1chippyben?feature=mhum#p/a/u/1/53DQrglTwM0

Here are a few sliders? zooters? backspinners? My favourite ball really because I can just imagine the batsman going back to what he thinks is a long hop and it scooting low and trapping him in front. http://www.youtube.com/user/1chippyben?feature=mhum#p/a/u/0/oI18WklNKP8

This one is of a couple of leg breaks, the first one with very little top spin (low bounce) and a back spinning wrong un going down leg. A fantastic ball if it wasn't nigh on impossible to get on line. http://www.youtube.com/user/1chippyben?feature=mhum#p/u/3/KcXPik6_Ykc

And finally a topspinner that nearly cost me a few bob and a nice turning leg break http://www.youtube.com/user/1chippyben?feature=mhum#p/u/4/2b4Q1lX5QxQ
 
chippyben said:
Can you keep an eye out for one in Sydney too mate. The riverina was my old stomping ground, great and very traditional area to play cricket against those old farmers.
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we would probably get along to a sydney gig, so i will keep an eye out. i have missed some good ones by not keeping up.

i lived in northeast vic for ten years up in the alps 45 minutes from albury ,right next to the riverina chippyben.
 
chippyben said:
I went down the nets yesterday and decided to have a muck around with the various variations for a bit of fun. I made a few videos of them from the keepers perspective.
See if you can pick me in these vids http://www.youtube.com/user/1chippyben?feature=mhum#p/a/u/2/-KyC8uw_pZA
http://www.youtube.com/user/1chippyben?feature=mhum#p/a/u/1/53DQrglTwM0

Here are a few sliders? zooters? backspinners? My favourite ball really because I can just imagine the batsman going back to what he thinks is a long hop and it scooting low and trapping him in front. http://www.youtube.com/user/1chippyben?feature=mhum#p/a/u/0/oI18WklNKP8

This one is of a couple of leg breaks, the first one with very little top spin (low bounce) and a back spinning wrong un going down leg. A fantastic ball if it wasn't nigh on impossible to get on line. http://www.youtube.com/user/1chippyben?feature=mhum#p/u/3/KcXPik6_Ykc

And finally a topspinner that nearly cost me a few bob and a nice turning leg break http://www.youtube.com/user/1chippyben?feature=mhum#p/u/4/2b4Q1lX5QxQ
Click to expand...

the backspinners are way too short, youll never get wickets with them on that length because batsmen will have forever to react. theyll rock back and youll get smashed out of the park. because of how flat you bowl them its also hard to know how much of the lack of bounce is down to backspin and how much is down to simply lower trajectory. try and flight the backspinner exactly the same as the leg break. the flipper is a flat fast delivery, the zooter should be a flighted delivery. its surprise element is that it looks identical to a leg break, but goes straight on and stays low. whereas the flipper is supposed to trick the batsman into thinking its a long hop, and then its extra carry brings it on fuller and traps batsmen LBW. it still has to pitch full though, but because its faster it will.
 
macca said:
we would probably get along to a sydney gig, so i will keep an eye out. i have missed some good ones by not keeping up.

i lived in northeast vic for ten years up in the alps 45 minutes from albury ,right next to the riverina chippyben.
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I played in the Tumbarumba league for a few seasons, stretching from Batlow, my home town down to Corryong on the border. That must be near where you were. It was a great league, really friendly and traditional.
We also played in the Tumut league which stretched across to Wagga. It was completely the opposite although about the same standard. Ive never experienced such brutal sledging anywhere else with most matches ending with sides barely shaking hands a It was like playing football. I managed to take the most wickets for a season in that league when I was 17 when I could bowl fast which is about where my cricket career peaked!!
We played rep games all over the riverina too especially out west on turf a lot of the time. Cootamundra as well the birthplace of the Don. We only just realised too that we played against Brad Haddin when we were 14 when he played for Gundagai. They beat us 2 years running in the rep grand final thanks largely to his batting.
 
Jim2109 said:
the backspinners are way too short, youll never get wickets with them on that length because batsmen will have forever to react. theyll rock back and youll get smashed out of the park. because of how flat you bowl them its also hard to know how much of the lack of bounce is down to backspin and how much is down to simply lower trajectory. try and flight the backspinner exactly the same as the leg break. the flipper is a flat fast delivery, the zooter should be a flighted delivery. its surprise element is that it looks identical to a leg break, but goes straight on and stays low. whereas the flipper is supposed to trick the batsman into thinking its a long hop, and then its extra carry brings it on fuller and traps batsmen LBW. it still has to pitch full though, but because its faster it will.
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Your a hard man Jim!! Nothing you liked there? lol.
I was just happy to get a few on the pitch.
I see your point though, someone else actually made the same comment on youtube about flighting it the same as a leg break.
 
chippyben said:
Your a hard man Jim!! Nothing you liked there? lol.
I was just happy to get a few on the pitch.
I see your point though, someone else actually made the same comment on youtube about flighting it the same as a leg break.
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haha sorry, i didnt mean to be so critical lol. a few of the leg breaks looked very good. one of the videos i noticed that you dropped a little short, and the wrong'uns are the wrong line, but youve only just acquired that delivery so pinpoint accuracy probably isnt high on the priority list at present. the backspinner length just jumped out at me straight away, and i know from experience how it gets punished if you drop it short. and since youre mid-season thats quite a relevant point, as you might use one of those deliveries in a match sometime soon. i still drag mine short quite a lot if i get the delivery all wrong, but as long as you aim to flight it youll get it somewhere close when it comes out right.

i dont know if those white circles on the pitch are markers, or just leaves or marks on the ground, but it looks like landing the ball in and around those marks is probably about the right length for your bowling. when you land it there on a leg stump line and turn it past off stump that is going to cause batsmen no end of trouble.

can you upload one of the videos in realtime instead of slow motion? would be interesting to get an idea of your pace from a batsmans perspective. i quite like the behind-the-stumps video angle, its not something ive done with my own bowling yet. next time im up the nets il have a camera behind the stumps as well getting a batsmans perspective. i might even get a batsman to wear one on his helmet, that would be even better!!!
 
Pretty hard for a spin bowler to develop much in junior cricket without constant work because you just dont get enough overs compared to batsmen and wicketkeepers who get many times more overs to work on skills. Pace bowlers get a few more overs as well, first crack, and a ball that suits.

If coaches and captains and other parents want to have a specialist spinner in the team that kid needs to get as many overs as possible. The policy of everbody gets a go is fine, but you dont split the wicket keeping or batting up equally by the over so why the bowling?

As the season goes on and batsmen get plenty of match practise it is no wonder so many kids pack it in as far as spin goes. You are on a hiding to nothing.

The last couple of weeks the opposition leggies have had shockers. In the first round they looked really good but they both bowled terrible 2nd time around. You have to get at least the first couple right or you are in big trouble. They obviously have not been bowling much other then in games and you might as well give up.
 
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