Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Another interesting thing in the zimbabwe odi today, a wrist spinner who can only bowl googlies a true googly bowler in the modern game, shows that losing the leg break can also happen at the top levels.

the guys name btw is timycen maruma.

I'm loving those games at the moment - I love Cremers bowling action and the off-spinner Ray Prices aggression when he bowls - especially in the first couple of games.

 

[gundalf7]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

yeah i really like cremer, its a good series at the moment very closely fought, and interesting watching tactics of the bowlers, cremer today bowled beautifully to pollard who came down the wicket and hit him for a huge six, and he tried to do it again and cremer saw it coming and bowled it quicker and wider and had him stumped.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Yeah I noted that one and locked that one away for the future. The only thing is as Macca's boy has found this season, you might have that as a plan and an intention, but if the wicket keeper isn't up to it, it's going to surprise him as much as it is the batsman. It'd be really good to find yourself a wicket keeper that was committed to his speciality to the same level as you as a bowler and was up for practicing maybe once a week with you for an hour - that'd make a huge difference I reckon?

 

[gundalf7]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

yeah it would make a huge difference if you have a good keeper, my club keeper is probablly worse than average and won't even keep in the nets at all and doesn't even bother to bring his keeping gear which gives an idea of how commited he is. If i had the keepers we have at uni to back me up all season i'd be confident bowling to any plan.

How decent are the keepers at your club

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

yeah it would make a huge difference if you have a good keeper, my club keeper is probablly worse than average and won't even keep in the nets at all and doesn't even bother to bring his keeping gear which gives an idea of how commited he is. If i had the keepers we have at uni to back me up all season i'd be confident bowling to any plan.

How decent are the keepers at your club

We had a bloke that was up for it a couple of years ago but then he found girls and his cricket has stopped. There's an old bloke that used to - but he's slow and stiff and going blind. We've got a big lad who's about the same size as three or four blokes and he's pretty good, but he's an offie and likes his bowling far more than his wicket keeping I think. He's probably the best by a long way. Have to see who's up for it this season, but I don't think we'll have anyone that sees themselves as a specialist.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Drift; I need to know more. I've just looked again at Spiderlounges article on the magnus affect and I think I'm more confused. The first question I want to ask and I did think about putting this in a completely new thread is - to increase drift do you bowl with the smooth face of the ball facing the batsman or the rough side?

First though can we all agree that Warnes deliveries that were noted for their drift were Leg Breaks and that a ball delivered over the wicket would initially start off on a trajectory that would suggest that if the ball didn't drift would land slightly outside of off-stump. The drift would then mean the ball would move off it's initial trajectory and bend through the air towards middle or leg and then hit the pitch and spin away to off?

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Drift; I need to know more. I've just looked again at Spiderlounges article on the magnus affect and I think I'm more confused. The first question I want to ask and I did think about putting this in a completely new thread is - to increase drift do you bowl with the smooth face of the ball facing the batsman or the rough side?

Smooth side facing batsman. Bruce Yardley reckons Warne held the ball with the shiny side on the outside to help his drift. Kaneria does as well.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Smooth side facing batsman. Bruce Yardley reckons Warne held the ball with the shiny side on the outside to help his drift. Kaneria does as well.

Check the drift/curve on this baseball pitching YouTube - Blitzball : Amazing Curveball notice too that there are some vague similarities to leg spinning - the one at 35 seconds he rotates his shoulders 180 degrees and his leg comes 180 degrees round a static leg albeit with a bent arm. I've been looking everywhere for some demos - there's the odd bit of footage of Warne bowling with a bit of drift.

The effect in this clip is what I'm looking for e.g. the pitch at 35 seconds where the ball seems to be heading for the off-side of that red square and turns in towards the legside.

But, it's the shiny side comes out of the hand facing the batsman, right that's a start. Back to my books, no doubt I'll be asking more questions later.....

Cheers

Look at this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSAK0N1Tgrs&feature=related again spinning balls and it all makes sense with regards the ball spinnng with the seam either upright to create dip with the top-spinner or hodling the ball in the air longer with the back-spinner. This football demo seems to me to be perfect if the seam was across the axis of flight like the equator is when you normally view an image of the earth, it makes sense that if the ball rotates clockwise from being kicked on the LH side it'll spin away to the right and vice versa. But our seam isn't presented that way when it's bowled as a leg break the seam is around the outside spinning in an anti-clcokwise manner, so the basic physics would suggest dip, but doesn't explain why the ball turns to the right as well as potentially dipping?

I've just looked at Philpotts book and all he manages to do is tell you what to do to get drift, he doesn't get into trying to explain why it happens, he just explains how to do it along with a diagram. Maybe I'm over-complicating things?

And looking at the fairly detailed explanations in Woolmers art and science of cricket of Warnes ball of the century which did drift, the explanation includes the desription of the theory being probable rather than likely. Interesting though is the almost certain fact that the ball presented with the smooth side moving towards the bat with the seam rotating at 90 degrees to the pitch is the ball that wont drift, whereas I thought that would be the ball that drifts the most? Looking at the diagrams in Woolmers book all of the descriptions of the balls that do drift seem to illustrate balls with scrambled seams and very little notice seems to be taken of the seam when the ball is moving through the air?

 

[chrisbell]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

As I understand it, Dave, there's a big difference between swing due to shiny side/rough side, and drift for a spinner. Drift is a product of the ball spinning about its axis, and, as I think the greatest amount of drift is acheived with a seam almost at 90 degrees to the direction of travel, I'm not sure that shiny side/rough side has much to do with it.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

As I understand it, Dave, there's a big difference between swing due to shiny side/rough side, and drift for a spinner. Drift is a product of the ball spinning about its axis, and, as I think the greatest amount of drift is acheived with a seam almost at 90 degrees to the direction of travel, I'm not sure that shiny side/rough side has much to do with it.

No - from what I'm reading and seeing - like you I thought that was the way you'd get the biggest amount of drift, but looking at spiderlounges article he wrote on drift and the stuff that's in Wollmers book the seam needs to be spinning round an axis that is pointed not in dead straight line from bowler to batsman as with the Big Leg Break but with the axis line pointed downwards with some top-spin, it's the downward angled axis which then enables the magnus affect to play it's part. Although I'm still not one hundred percent sure. What I am certain of is that Woolmers explanataions and diagrams are far more complex than Philpotts and Philpott credits someone esle in his book for the basic physics lesson. I think the diagrams get to a point where they in themselves along with the terminology get too complex. Spiderlounges explanation is very good up to a point where he then uses a multi-coloured diagram and at that point it gets confusing for me! I think I need to do a load of my own diagrams and ask him if I'm on the right track with my understanding of it.

 

[chippyben]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Gday gents.
I am new on big cricket and have been reading everyones postings and getting all the tips and ideas I can. I was a handy fast bowler who through injury has started bowling leg spin a few months ago and I must admit I am loving it and have become slightly obsessed with it. Its good to see others on the internet who have the bug as well.
I have been fairly disciplined in just trying to develop a hard spun leg break but whilst mucking around with a few different balls including what I thought was the wrong-un I have developed a ball that I cant find descibed anywhere else. To explain it, at release the back of the hand is facing the batsman like a normal wrongun but instead of the arm turned outwards it is rotated inwards and so is closer to the slider than the top spinner. The result is that because of the arm and wrist being turned so far inward it doesnt go down the pitch with much speed but when it pitches it skids low and turns as a regulation wrong-un would because it has back spin as well as side spin. Has anyone bowled this or does it have a name that anyone knows of. I would love to know.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Gday gents.
I am new on big cricket and have been reading everyones postings and getting all the tips and ideas I can. I was a handy fast bowler who through injury has started bowling leg spin a few months ago and I must admit I am loving it and have become slightly obsessed with it. Its good to see others on the internet who have the bug as well.
I have been fairly disciplined in just trying to develop a hard spun leg break but whilst mucking around with a few different balls including what I thought was the wrong-un I have developed a ball that I cant find descibed anywhere else. To explain it, at release the back of the hand is facing the batsman like a normal wrongun but instead of the arm turned outwards it is rotated inwards and so is closer to the slider than the top spinner. The result is that because of the arm and wrist being turned so far inward it doesnt go down the pitch with much speed but when it pitches it skids low and turns as a regulation wrong-un would because it has back spin as well as side spin. Has anyone bowled this or does it have a name that anyone knows of. I would love to know.

There is a kid in my sons team and that is all he bowls, backspun wronguns! Normally you would see that as a mistake twisting so far around and it is very hard to do it accurately. You could work on it as a rare variation perhaps?

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Dave - shiny side/rough side makes no discernable difference to drift. the magnus effect is far more powerful than swing (hence swing bowling requires the ball to travel at 70+mph to move the ball inches, whilst as leg spinners we can move the ball feet at half that speed with good revs!).

so regardless of where you put the shiny side, the ball will drift anyway provided it has revs on it. the reason why all the top leg spinners bowl with shiny side fowards is so that their fingers are imparting spin on the rough side. for fairly obvious reasons, given that the rough side is much easier to grip, and this impart higher revs! i take it a step further, i position the ball in my hand so that the roughest part of the ball near the seam is where my ring finger grips. its just about getting the best possible grip on the ball to impart spin. nothing at all to do with drift IMO.

if you dont think you are getting the ball to drift at all then youre either looking for it in the wrong places, not generating enough revs, or scrambling the seam too much (a scrambled seam wont prevent drift, but it is more effective with a perfect seam). its most likely that you do generate drift, but you just dont see it. typically youll notice it most in the last couple of feet before the ball pitches. it will just shape away, and then turn back. youll notice it more with less flight, if you loop the ball up its harder to see it happening, if you bowl flatter it becomes more obvious.

that baseball video looks like a ball similar to a wiffleball. they are purposely designed so that they disturb the air and curve. so its not really a fair comparison to a cricket ball, simply throwing those plastic balls straight gives them curve!

chippyben - with regards the backspun wrong'un - i bowled one a few weeks ago and made reference to it on here. i was trying to bowl a zooter, but i went too far around the loop, and it turned back in by a decent amount. its a very unnatural wrist motion, up there with Murali, unless youve got very flexible joints its probably asking for an injury over time, i sometimes feel the strain just bowling zooters. but it has the potential to be a very potent variation, and one that i intend to have a play with at some point. but it would definitely be an occasional variation. it can probably be disguised better than the conventional wrong'un as its a fast flick of the wrist away from a leg break rather than a complete change of arm angle. accuracy is the toughest aspect of the zooter though, trying to bowl one out of the blue and land it on the money is tough.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Dave - shiny side/rough side makes no discernable difference to drift. the magnus effect is far more powerful than swing (hence swing bowling requires the ball to travel at 70+mph to move the ball inches, whilst as leg spinners we can move the ball feet at half that speed with good revs!).

so regardless of where you put the shiny side, the ball will drift anyway provided it has revs on it. the reason why all the top leg spinners bowl with shiny side fowards is so that their fingers are imparting spin on the rough side. for fairly obvious reasons, given that the rough side is much easier to grip, and this impart higher revs! i take it a step further, i position the ball in my hand so that the roughest part of the ball near the seam is where my ring finger grips. its just about getting the best possible grip on the ball to impart spin. nothing at all to do with drift IMO.

Yeah we have been through this before. It makes no difference per say, except by holding the rough side you should get more revs and therefore drift. The ball is held with the rougher side and the shiny side on the outside not for swing but for purchase. Kaneria is under instruction from the reverse swingers to keep his sweaty palms off the shiny side! They dont mind the extra moisture on the rough side though.

Yardley thought Warne was looking for inswing by holding the ball shiny side out, but it was extra grip that Warne was looking for by holding the rougher side.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Dave - shiny side/rough side makes no discernable difference to drift. the magnus effect is far more powerful than swing (hence swing bowling requires the ball to travel at 70+mph to move the ball inches, whilst as leg spinners we can move the ball feet at half that speed with good revs!).

That's not my experience at all - my older son swings the ball a lot bowling seam up and he can't be bowling much more than about 45mph. Similarly a couple of my mates who bowled relatively slow seam up - 50-55mph (older blokes) used to swing the ball quite dramatically too? Same too with my flippers - they're around 45 - 47mph and they swing massively when the conditions are right?

The point that Jim makes with regards the fact that I may be drifting the ball is true. I bowled against one of our batsman last year and when we stopped he said - 'You get good drift with your balls Dave', but on that occasion I was bowling seam up flippers and assumed that it would have been swing rather than drift. Later in the month after a series of questions and comments on here regarding drift I started to look for drift in my bowling and did notice it, what with the fact that I completely focus on the area that I'm bowling to it may have been that I simpy have never watched the ball go through the air. The upshot of observing the ball in the air was that I couldn't get the drift on a consistent basis, so it wasn't that much help anyway that I had noticed it.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Did anyone check out warnie in the IPL the other night? Talk about looping it up slow. He reckons his new website has taken 3 years to get ready and it will be up this week.

 

[chippyben]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

With regard to drift I have found I have got a bit more recently by bowling a bit quicker. Im hoping that the extra speed is putting a few more revs on the ball especially as I pivot through the crease.
I was all for giving up my back spinning wrong-un as it was really awkward at first but after mucking around with it Ive found I can bowl it fairly accuratly but getting the right length is a problem, but I reckon a ball that stays skids low and comes back in to the batsman is worth persisting with.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

Did anyone check out warnie in the IPL the other night? Talk about looping it up slow. He reckons his new website has taken 3 years to get ready and it will be up this week.

I'm working on a big update section within my leg break blog where I'll be referring to Grimmetts, Philpotts and Woolmers attempts at describing Drift. To be honest I reckon Spiderlounges blog article is pretty good looking at what I've been reading. But in the article I've said that if there is one person that could throw some light on the matter it may well be Warne? The other thing I suggest is that it may end up being the case that like swing bowling it might not be something that you can just step up to the crease and say 'Today I'll be drifting the first 4 balls in to the legside and the last 2 wont have any drift'. It might end up being sporadic and elusive dependent on several variables before it happens and that as the bowler some of them are out of your control.

So I can't wait to see what Warne says about it - if indeed it's there! Do you know whether it's going to be technical stuff or about him the personality?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

With regard to drift I have found I have got a bit more recently by bowling a bit quicker. Im hoping that the extra speed is putting a few more revs on the ball especially as I pivot through the crease.
I was all for giving up my back spinning wrong-un as it was really awkward at first but after mucking around with it Ive found I can bowl it fairly accuratly but getting the right length is a problem, but I reckon a ball that stays skids low and comes back in to the batsman is worth persisting with.

Chippy, can you decide which balls you drift and which balls you don't - or do you have days when you can't get it to drift even if you desperately need to?

Do you angle the axis of the seam forwards or backwards when you bowl your Leg Break with drift as in Woolmers Art and Science of Cricket he says that the ball with the ball spinning at 90 degrees to the direction of flight with it's axis vertical does not produce drift and it's not until the balls axis is angled in flight that drift becomes an aspect of the delivery. Although at the start he says that the theory is probable rather than imperic.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Three)

So I can't wait to see what Warne says about it - if indeed it's there! Do you know whether it's going to be technical stuff or about him the personality?

Probably just trying to flog his new underpants range and that poker turn out he's wrapped up in. If he did have a forum on his website he might answer some questions from time to time?
My young bloke follows him on twitter or whatever it is and keeps up with what he's up to, that's how he found out about the website.