Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

i just made a quick slow motion video of me flicking the ball between my hands. its on YouTube...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3VQjdBirwk

watch it in HD or the quality blows. thats pretty much as good as the quality of my camera gets in slow motion once its compressed (i think with a brighter backdrop than a dark green bush it might have had crisper edges). the raw data off of the camera is marginally better. it captures the slow motion pictures at the lowest of the HD settings. in the highest HD quality at normal speed the quality is way better.

thats an example of 240fps though, 0.25x speed. the ball is rotating at 1240rpm in that shot. its got white tape perpendicular to the seam to illustrate the rotation (at full speed you pretty much just see a blur).

 

[GoldenArm]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Hey Jim i can't watch that video, do i have to add you on youtube to be able to see it? also i noticed the discussion on blisters. i've had big problems with a massive callous on my spinning finger (3rd), i have a big knobbly hard patch on there which throughout this season and last was prone to splitting and tearing. when i bowl really well and it comes out perfectly i always tear into it a bit. sometimes i would bowl so much and so hard that it would bleed all over the place and become unbearably raw. i would have to take a couple of weeks off while it healed, subsequently i tried everything to toughen it up, surgical spirit, all sorts. even considered Swanns technique of pissing on it! but decided against that one. the best thing i found i could do was not making it any dryer, as the surgical spirit tended to do, but keeping it supple without being too smooth. the occasional bit of moisturizer maybe just once a week accompanied the roughness induced naturally by the seam breaking up the skin is ideal. i have no idea what happened but it doesn't tear so much now even though i'm bowling as much as i ever did. perhaps my skin has just naturally adapted to the strains i'm putting upon it. god knows. i'm just thankful it doesn't bleed anymore.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

A reading from the book of Grimmett..."another device I used to exploit a lot was the lengthening of the arm swing every now and then. This causes the ball to reach the batsman more slowly, while at the same time it makes it leave the pitch faster. This sort of ball seems to draw the batsman irrisistibly from his crease."
Grimmett said it was something he exploited a lot but he also warned not to let the batsmen see the ball poke out behind your back.
Batsmen talked of facing Grimmett and finding the ball looping out slowly then upon pitching the ball took off like a medium pacer. This ball sounds like one of those.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Hey Jim i can't watch that video, do i have to add you on youtube to be able to see it?

should work now.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

should work now.

Jim it's working now. You should try and shoot a closer image of your hand at the point of release in your normal bowling action. You'll probably need a tripod and someone to compose it and shoot it several times. But it'd be good to see your wrist position, how the ball comes off your 3rd finger and how well you're side on you're getting your rotation.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Hey Jim i can't watch that video, do i have to add you on youtube to be able to see it? also i noticed the discussion on blisters. i've had big problems with a massive callous on my spinning finger (3rd), i have a big knobbly hard patch on there which throughout this season and last was prone to splitting and tearing. when i bowl really well and it comes out perfectly i always tear into it a bit. sometimes i would bowl so much and so hard that it would bleed all over the place and become unbearably raw. i would have to take a couple of weeks off while it healed, subsequently i tried everything to toughen it up, surgical spirit, all sorts. even considered Swanns technique of pissing on it! but decided against that one. the best thing i found i could do was not making it any dryer, as the surgical spirit tended to do, but keeping it supple without being too smooth. the occasional bit of moisturizer maybe just once a week accompanied the roughness induced naturally by the seam breaking up the skin is ideal. i have no idea what happened but it doesn't tear so much now even though i'm bowling as much as i ever did. perhaps my skin has just naturally adapted to the strains i'm putting upon it. god knows. i'm just thankful it doesn't bleed anymore.

My experience in the past of working on construction sites using heavy blister inducing equipment is that the more you do it the tougher the skin gets and eventually you get callouses and then you're fine.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

My experience in the past of working on construction sites using heavy blister inducing equipment is that the more you do it the tougher the skin gets and eventually you get callouses and then you're fine.

That is what I reckon too. It is normally a beginners problem or someone taking it up after a big break but reading about the problems of some test bowlers damage to the the spinning finger caused by overuse is/was an ongoing problem for some.

I blistered again about 4 years ago when I started bowling a lot of legspin again even though I already had a permanent bump on my third finger from decades of bowling legbreaks.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Jim it's working now. You should try and shoot a closer image of your hand at the point of release in your normal bowling action. You'll probably need a tripod and someone to compose it and shoot it several times. But it'd be good to see your wrist position, how the ball comes off your 3rd finger and how well you're side on you're getting your rotation.

i used a tripod for that shot, it was just a quick effort more to show the slow motion of the camera really. i can do a closer shot of my hand and the ball coming out, il try and get one tomorrow. i should probably take a shot from a few angles really, its hard to see exactly whats happening from just the front. the seam position is pretty much bolt upright though.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

i just made a quick slow motion video of me flicking the ball between my hands. its on YouTube...

YouTube - 20090919135426

watch it in HD or the quality blows. thats pretty much as good as the quality of my camera gets in slow motion once its compressed (i think with a brighter backdrop than a dark green bush it might have had crisper edges). the raw data off of the camera is marginally better. it captures the slow motion pictures at the lowest of the HD settings. in the highest HD quality at normal speed the quality is way better.

thats an example of 240fps though, 0.25x speed. the ball is rotating at 1240rpm in that shot. its got white tape perpendicular to the seam to illustrate the rotation (at full speed you pretty much just see a blur).

Lovely lady-like teadrinking pinky formation there! No offence that is what I like to see. Philpott has a bit to say about where that formation should point at delivery.

I tell my young bloke to get his hand to hand spinning act looking pro as a way to intimidate the batsman as he stands at the top of his mark. Try and look like a spinner. I dont like the look of keeping it going whilst running in to bowl but it works for some.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Lovely lady-like teadrinking pinky formation there! No offence that is what I like to see. Philpott has a bit to say about where that formation should point at delivery.

haha, ive noticed i do that as well, i find that the more pronounced my fingers are at the end of my action, the faster the ball spins. i guess everyone has their own way, Warnes fingers kind of fold back down again when he does it. i tried that and it didnt work for me. do you have a specific quote of what Philpott has to say about this? id be very interested to hear his thoughts.

I tell my young bloke to get his hand to hand spinning act looking pro as a way to intimidate the batsman as he stands at the top of his mark. Try and look like a spinner.

i do this as well! i pace out my "run" up before i start bowling and mark a line with my foot. then before every delivery i return to my mark, stand there staring the batsman in the face furiously spinning the ball between my hands as in the video, pretending like im concocting a dastardly plan to take his wicket. and then i bowl. i guess it works to some extent, usually the first ball of the day if its flighted well has the batsman panicking a little and just looking to defend. generally it goes downhill from there. i find spinning the ball between my hands relaxing though, it gives me time to compose myself. ive heard Shane Warne talk in great detail about the importance of spin bowlers taking their time, particularly during the Ashes coverage this summer whilst he was commentating. he didnt like how quickly Swann was banging through his overs. he said that he used to sometimes take several minutes just stood there playing with the ball, maybe adjusting fielders around, just to buy himself time to properly think through his next delivery and to compose himself.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

i used a tripod for that shot, it was just a quick effort more to show the slow motion of the camera really. i can do a closer shot of my hand and the ball coming out, il try and get one tomorrow. i should probably take a shot from a few angles really, its hard to see exactly whats happening from just the front. the seam position is pretty much bolt upright though.

Yeah I just want to see this camera in action with regards cricket balls being released from the hand. My biggest turning leg break which doesn't use the wrist flick in the way that I do with my Wrong Un and Top Spinner is a weird affair. I have to really focus on my hand position and release the ball in a position that feels like the wrist has turned so far clockwise that it's almost in a karate chop position at the point of release. It's probably got something to do with the fact that I suffered from the Wrong Un syndrome and even now bowling Leg Breaks still feels alien to me, whereas if I ever revert to bowling Wrong Uns it comes to easy and turns so massively. So I'd like to see what is actually going on with my hand and wrist, it maybe that even though I'm brining the arm over in what feels like a karate chop position it might be coming through like a standard leg break - but I want to see the proof - so this camera is very tempting.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Yeah I just want to see this camera in action with regards cricket balls being released from the hand. My biggest turning leg break which doesn't use the wrist flick in the way that I do with my Wrong Un and Top Spinner is a weird affair. I have to really focus on my hand position and release the ball in a position that feels like the wrist has turned so far clockwise that it's almost in a karate chop position at the point of release. It's probably got something to do with the fact that I suffered from the Wrong Un syndrome and even now bowling Leg Breaks still feels alien to me, whereas if I ever revert to bowling Wrong Uns it comes to easy and turns so massively. So I'd like to see what is actually going on with my hand and wrist, it maybe that even though I'm brining the arm over in what feels like a karate chop position it might be coming through like a standard leg break - but I want to see the proof - so this camera is very tempting.

ok, il try and get some shots that better show its close up detail capabilities. i want to get some videos of my own bowling at the nets, but i need an assistant to push the record button for the slow motion stuff as it only captures 3 seconds at a time. and by the time i get back to the camera itself after having bowled a ball il have missed the window.

 

[abdul qadir junior]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Just been practicing with my brother. My top spin has improved. I can bowl it more often now but occasionally it becomes a leggie with bounce. I have started bowling a new delivery which is the off spinning flipper. When i attempt a normal flipper it becomes like a very sharp off spinner. Is this because i cant keep the seam straight when bowling the flipper? Another problem is my action changes slightly when i bowl the flipper. Any suggestions??

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Just been practicing with my brother. My top spin has improved. I can bowl it more often now but occasionally it becomes a leggie with bounce. I have started bowling a new delivery which is the off spinning flipper. When i attempt a normal flipper it becomes like a very sharp off spinner. Is this because i cant keep the seam straight when bowling the flipper? Another problem is my action changes slightly when i bowl the flipper. Any suggestions??

if youre not trying to put side spin on the ball then it almost certainly is as a result of your hand not delivering the ball with a straight seam. if its turning though then at least you know the seam is upright.

the problem i found with the flipper (in all its guises) is firstly the motion of the arm, and secondly the motion of the body. when im delivering a leg break my arm naturally comes across my body, which isnt a problem because im imparting side spin. when i bowl my top spinner i bring my arm over a bit straighter. with the flipper the natural arm movement is to come across the body, but you possibly need to try and push the arm forwards in a straighter motion. otherwise youll always bring your arm across the ball and subsequently the seam position will follow.

and with regards the body, is the same. the body rotates. you dont want to stop this though, you just need to correct the arm to compensate for it. the easiest way is just to start with your wrist angled further away, but ultimately correcting the arm as well will help.

finally, to disguise the delivery without completely changing your action, thats the hardest part. bowl leg break after leg break for a while until your arm is just doing the same thing every time. then bowl without a ball, just so you can think about what you arm is doing. then just try to replicate it with the flipper action. dont focus on what the ball is doing, just focus on arm speed primarily, thats the key thing to match. if you do everything at the same speed i found the rest follows. then try to get the ball spinning and accurate at the same time. i actually found that the closer i matched my flipper (which i actually utilise as a top-spinning off-break) to my leg break motion, the more accurate and effective the flipper has become!! i flight it a lot more now as well, when i get it right it looks identical to my leg break according to the batsmen ive bowled it at. none of them have ever picked it. which makes them even more surprised when it pitches outside off and spins back into their legs lol. the same principles will apply to the back spinner though, which i can also bowl in the same way.

 

[Jim2109]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Yeah I just want to see this camera in action with regards cricket balls being released from the hand. My biggest turning leg break which doesn't use the wrist flick in the way that I do with my Wrong Un and Top Spinner is a weird affair. I have to really focus on my hand position and release the ball in a position that feels like the wrist has turned so far clockwise that it's almost in a karate chop position at the point of release. It's probably got something to do with the fact that I suffered from the Wrong Un syndrome and even now bowling Leg Breaks still feels alien to me, whereas if I ever revert to bowling Wrong Uns it comes to easy and turns so massively. So I'd like to see what is actually going on with my hand and wrist, it maybe that even though I'm brining the arm over in what feels like a karate chop position it might be coming through like a standard leg break - but I want to see the proof - so this camera is very tempting.

i had a play with the camera this afternoon, it hates close ups!! it really seems to struggle to find focus if the target is too close. it actually gives a clearer shot from further away, you can see more detail from further away than up close really. im trying to process the videos so that the quality is useable, if you want to see the raw output then il stick a video of that up as well.

however, despite the quality not being perfect, ive made an extremely interesting discovery. remember last week i said that i was landing the ball off-seam because it came out of my hand slanted backwards slightly? well its not a feature of my overall action, its a feature of my hand action!!! i do it between my hands as well. ive never recorded my spinning from side on, and this has thrown it up.

my fingers dont feel that loose today though, ive done too much bowling and spinning this week really, plus a load of DIY, enough that my forearms ache. im also only generating about 1100rpm today as well, so maybe its just that. but either way, its justification on its own for using a slow motion camera. and it HAS to stem from the fact that my ring finger doesnt touch the seam, because its working off-axis it imparts the spin off-axis. to be fair, id rather adjust my wrist and retain my spinning technique though because it puts about 30% more revs on the ball than any other way ive tried. but at least i now know that.

 

[gashead23]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Hello

Really interesting thread this thanks for a good read. Just wondered if anyone has encountered this problem. Whatever grip I try my bowling always seems to come out as a mixture of top spinners and wrong uns, I really struggle to spin the ball the conventional legspinners way i.e leg to off.

I have tried changing my grip to ways suggested on videos etc for a leg break but it seems to always come out as a toppie.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

Hello

Really interesting thread this thanks for a good read. Just wondered if anyone has encountered this problem. Whatever grip I try my bowling always seems to come out as a mixture of top spinners and wrong uns, I really struggle to spin the ball the conventional legspinners way i.e leg to off.

I have tried changing my grip to ways suggested on videos etc for a leg break but it seems to always come out as a toppie.

Perhaps you are not releasing the ball with your palm facing the batsman and the thumb pointing out to cover, maybe your palm is facing midwicket and the thumb pointing at the batsman.

We found a good way to correct this is against a wall. Just stand a few feet away and concentrate on finishing a legbreak with your palm facing the wall. The legbreak will spin off the wall to the left and you can catch it with your left hand. The topspinner will come straight back and a wrongun will spin right and has to be caught with the right hand. The wall never lies!

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

do you have a specific quote of what Philpott has to say about this? id be very interested to hear his thoughts.

Yes I will scan this photo from an old philpott book( 1978) and post it as soon as I can. The caption under the photo is philpotts comment on where the finger formation should point he says this " note how the fingers of the right hand bend inwards after delivery-they are not extended." That sounds like the way you noticed warne finish?

I find the photo and caption a little unclear as to what he is talking about so if I post it I know someone here will work it out what he means. Does he talk of this in " the art of wrist spin" ? I think he does but i have not read that one in a while.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

You've got the wrong un syndrome. I'll have a cup of tea and come back and shed some light on the matter or if Macca's on-line he may do the same?

Right the new bloke who's bowling top-spinners and Wrong Uns sounds like he's got the wrong syndrome. As Macca has already said you got to bowl with the wrist facing forwards through the delivery. I had a whole year bowling like this and it took me 6 months or so to correct it and even now 5 months on bowling Leg Breaks all the time and hardly ever bowling wrong uns, the leg break still feels wholly un-natural whereas my wrong feels totally natural still.

I corrected it after months or practice never bowling wrong uns till I was able to bowl the Le Break and I avoided bowling Top-Spinners too. The way I corrected it was to concentrate 100% on what I was doing and focus on where the wrist was at the point of release. In order that my wrist comes over in the right way I bowl with my wrist in a position where it feels like I've almost got my wrist and hand in a karate chop position, but I think in doing this my release end up being in the correct position. Over bowling wrong uns re-wires your brain so that the out of the back of the hand feeling feels like you're bowling a leg break and correcting it calls for this karate chop action to compensate for the fact that you're instinctively bowling out of the back of the hand. Try it for a few weeks and you may see a big difference, but you really need to concentrate and focus on what you're doing.

Other than that I bowled today with my sons club Basildon in favour of my own club. I went for 4-0-30-2 one of which was a lovely Leg break that pitched on middle and off and bounced nice and turned and found the edge of the bat and was taken by the slips fielder. I haven't had one of those for a while and the other was caught at cover, 1st one was very satisfying and I was also commended for some agile fielding with one of the blokes saying my new nick-name was to be 'The cat'! Not bad for a 49 year old bloke!!!

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling (Part Two)

do you have a specific quote of what Philpott has to say about this? id be very interested to hear his thoughts.

Yes I will scan this photo from an old philpott book( 1978) and post it as soon as I can. The caption under the photo is philpotts comment on where the finger formation should point he says this " note how the fingers of the right hand bend inwards after delivery-they are not extended." That sounds like the way you noticed warne finish?

I find the photo and caption a little unclear as to what he is talking about so if I post it I know someone here will work it out what he means. Does he talk of this in " the art of wrist spin" ? I think he does but i have not read that one in a while.

I think this has to do with the way Philpott rips the ball from the hand, his release ends up with his fingers in a loose fist position, he uses the 3rd and final fingers as a part of the 'Levers' explanation - kind of like a whip - the fingers being the small end of the whip that goes 'crack' as the ball comes off the fingers the whip-lash affect and final spin is created through the fingers flexing into the fist position. When I do it my fingers create a loudish click almost like a flipper click as the ball snaps off the end of the fingers.