Wrist Spin Bowling

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Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;355134 said:
It looks as though there is straightening of the arm. Would it be deemed a no ball. I stated before, that when I try to bowl the 'mystery ball I get the impression that I straighten the elbow, I presume it would automatically be called a no ball.

Boycott called to legalise the doosra, which the video seems to show, and he stated that there is no way it can be bowled without elbow straightening. I think , Murali is the only one that can bowl it without any straightening, as he can get excess flexion and extension at the wrist ie he is a 'freak' with hypermobile joints. Apparently he can nearly dislocate the shoulder when bowling.
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Yes, I feel like when I try two of grimmetts " flippers", the overspinner and that doosra, that you could easily stray into no-ball territory. I get that with all offspin deliveries even though i can bowl pretty good off-breaks.
But the backspinning flipper and what they used to call the " flipper-offbreak" which is the upside down Grimmett "doosra" wont be a problem for the legspinner because they seem very closely related to legbreak family balls as far as wrist position at release.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;355141 said:
Talking of doing lots of practise . Sometimes you don't notice your improvement until you have a few days off and when you bowl next time you think, "wow, I am better than i thought."
But if you have too much time off you get rusty and the next time you bowl you think "bloody hell, I've gone backwards."
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Funilly enough I seem to go backwards, if say I practice for 3 consecutive days. Dave as well seemed to have bowled best when he could not practice due to his arm, but admittedly one would have done the hard miles before. And also stopping for a long time seems to put the neuromuscular co-ordination in tilt.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;355561 said:
Macca, have you read Time of the Tiger, if so is it worth a read do you think?
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I think that is by whitington? I have not read it for a while. I remember there is some stuff about his bowling methods and field settings. He bowled mainly googlies at two short legs according to whitington i think.
I have to have a look at all whitingtons stuff, he was at first slip to Grimmett and Pepper and knew a little of what they were up to. More than Bradman, who was out of the loop. I am finding the first reports of the word flipper in whitington in 1950.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

This is for legspinismylife...........

YouTube - legspin

I reckon some of the others on Big Cricket should have a look at this as well.

1. Your run in is too long and you're zig-zagging all over the place as you run in and then you look off balance as you deliver the ball.
2. The leading arm looks kind of superficial as though it's not being used to drive the delivery through the rotation.
3. The leg that should come up and round the leg you rotate looks weak through the action too.

I reckon you should look at the David Freedman video on youtube and examine that closely. Do the one step drills that are on there including the exaggerated step over drill. Macca on Big Cricket told me at the start of my Leg Break recovery that this leg that lifts up and over should do so to the point where you actually kick your backside as the leg comes up over and round the pivoting leg.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;355562 said:
I think that is by whitington? I have not read it for a while. I remember there is some stuff about his bowling methods and field settings. He bowled mainly googlies at two short legs according to whitington i think.
I have to have a look at all whitingtons stuff, he was at first slip to Grimmett and Pepper and knew a little of what they were up to. More than Bradman, who was out of the loop. I am finding the first reports of the word flipper in whitington in 1950.
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I might get that then as it'll probably have some stuff in there regarding The Fox
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;355144 said:
Yes, I feel like when I try two of grimmetts " flippers", the overspinner and that doosra, that you could easily stray into no-ball territory. I get that with all offspin deliveries even though i can bowl pretty good off-breaks.
But the backspinning flipper and what they used to call the " flipper-offbreak" which is the upside down Grimmett "doosra" wont be a problem for the legspinner because they seem very closely related to legbreak family balls as far as wrist position at release.
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If you mean the warne/jenner flipper, I agree, straightening of the elbow is less of a problem. Funnily enough I bowl decent offbreaks, but as it is with you I suspect there is more than the allowed straightening there as well.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;355563 said:
I might get that then as it'll probably have some stuff in there regarding The Fox
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I will send you a photocopy of "tricking the batsman" by c v grimmett.1932. It might take a couple of weeks cause i am heading away on holidays.
That book has a lot of his tricks and theories on how to get batsmen out.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;355141 said:
Talking of doing lots of practise . Sometimes you don't notice your improvement until you have a few days off and when you bowl next time you think, "wow, I am better than i thought."
But if you have too much time off you get rusty and the next time you bowl you think "bloody hell, I've gone backwards."
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I completely agree with that. I think that you can get into a rut where you do the same thing again and again and you get no-where and it takes a few days out from it or even longer to change the pattern of stagnation. When you come back to it I find that sometimes suddenly you make a massive step forwards.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Nice one Macca. I just quoted you in my blog saying that at the minute I'm a bit lost as to what I should be doing with my bowling. I've kind of got a bit tied up in the looking at the Stats trap that you can get yourself into doing and found myself on Saturday worrying about losing my place in the stats wars at the club. Which I think is probably a really unhealthy thing to be doing if you're looking to bowl well? I'd rather not know about the stats and just go for getting wickets and as you said if you take that approach the stats just look after themselves. So I went back a week or so and found your quote and decided that this'll be my philosophy.....

"Mate, you are way ahead on those figures even without seeing the number of overs bowled. If you kept that up you could end up playing for Essex!
I wouldn't worry about runs per over, you have to get the other bastards out and back in the f****ing sheds. That is how you keep the runs down and win games.
Who wants to play or watch cricket when the scoring rate is below 4 runs an over"?

But back to the original point - For the last three years I've had clear objectives and goals and now I seem to have got to where I wanted to be and now I'm looking to push on and get better. Any suggestions as to what I should be doing?

Drift I suppose is the logical answer as that's something I don't recognise in my own bowling. So where do I start with drift?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;355564 said:
I will send you a photocopy of "tricking the batsman" by c v grimmett.1932. It might take a couple of weeks cause i am heading away on holidays.
That book has a lot of his tricks and theories on how to get batsmen out.
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Where you off to - you surfing at all?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Jim,

If u could post a bowling video of yours...then it will be helpfull in understanding ur leg spin bowling and lot of us will be able to give u more feedback on the same.

Shoot it from the keeper's end...

Virender
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;355145 said:
This is for legspinismylife...........

YouTube - legspin

I reckon some of the others on Big Cricket should have a look at this as well.

1. Your run in is too long and you're zig-zagging all over the place as you run in and then you look off balance as you deliver the ball.
2. The leading arm looks kind of superficial as though it's not being used to drive the delivery through the rotation.
3. The leg that should come up and round the leg you rotate looks weak through the action too.

I reckon you should look at the David Freedman video on youtube and examine that closely. Do the one step drills that are on there including the exaggerated step over drill. Macca on Big Cricket told me at the start of my Leg Break recovery that this leg that lifts up and over should do so to the point where you actually kick your backside as the leg comes up over and round the pivoting leg.
Click to expand...
I think that might have been EOW or someone else with the kicking yourself in the arse aim. I get my young bloke to do it now after reading of it here. I did see an old bowling coach show the same thing years ago.
I agree with the three points dave raises on the clip.
I do see lots of potential there from legspinismylife. Combined with effective and concentrated practise he could have a big future. Finding a good coach can be hard but you have to be your own coach as a legspinner often at the start. A lone fox
Grimmett made a quote in 1970 where he says if you want to learn how to bowl legspin, "read my books ,it is all in there, it is just nobody has taken the time to read them".
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Virendersingh.berthwal;355623 said:
Jim,

If u could post a bowling video of yours...then it will be helpfull in understanding ur leg spin bowling and lot of us will be able to give u more feedback on the same.

Shoot it from the keeper's end...

Virender
Click to expand...

i think this is something for the future. at present my action has so many flaws and inconsistencies that id have to video about 20 deliveries just to show them all lol. i need to find a consistent action that does the same thing near enough every delivery, and then i can start to look for the small improvements here and there. right now there would be too wide a range of things to work on at once, i just need to put in practice time and bowl some deliveries
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;355153 said:
Here is beautiful drift from leg to off by Harbhajan. That would be tricky to play YouTube - Harbhajan Singh Incredible Drift and Spin v New Zealand
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Yeah that's good! I like this blokes bowling - an Indian mate of mine used to bowl with the twirling arm action and he was good. I've tried it once or twice and it gives me a lot more pace and works well with my big turning Wrong Un.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

hey guys,

i watched ur rotation vid Dave and i thought i could give my opinion on what could improve,

As you release the ball your right leg is alredy mid-air therefore your releasing the ball on one leg which isnt really a steady basis in terms of balancing whilst thinking about ripping the ball etc..

I release the ball with both feet firmly on floor in a side on stance, after releasing the ball because of the rotation of your shoulder, hips etc this should make your right leg kick ur behind and you should complete the rotation.

i use to release the ball the same as i was rotating to early but now my bowlings heaps bettr in many ways so i hope this might work for you, but everyones different so if your bowling is going gd i dont see why you should have to change.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;355156 said:
I think that might have EOW or someone with the kicking yourself in the arse aim. I get my young bloke to do it now after reading of it here. I did see an old bowling coach show the same thing years ago.
I agree with the three points dave raises on the clip.
I do see lots of potential there from legspinismylife. Combined with effective and concentrated practise he could have a big future. Finding a good coach can be hard but you have to be your own coach as a legspinner often at the start. A lone fox
Grimmett made a quote in 1970 where he says if you want to learn how to bowl legspin, "read my books ,it is all in there, it is just nobody has taken the time to read them".
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Good old Clarrie - he was a shrewd business man as well! I could have sworn it was you Macca who suggested the arse kick technique!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I certainly wont ignore what you're saying, what I'll do now is go on youtube and just have a look to see how some of the pro's do it and see if it makes any sense with regards to what you're saying.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;355154 said:
I believe my action at the elbow would be something similar with the mystery ball. I think that should be no balled? YouTube - Johan Botha Chucking against Australia?
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Hmm interesting - I see what you mean, I'm going to look at my clips now after seeing that.

Had a look mine looks okay. I reckon that when out of practice the Biggun may be contentious, but I ease into it and get better with practice.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I just had a quick look at Jenner and Beau Casson in their on-line vids and they both appear to release the ball whilst pivoting on one leg?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

The first part seems to be in super slow motion. Are offspinners no balled very frequently in your experience. I get fast good turn for offspin, but when the captain(a legspinner) saw me bowling it , he told me it looks like a no ball. He did not say anything about the leg spin deliveries, but as I had discussed with edge of willow, there is no straightening in leg spin so we are safe. YouTube - Johann Botha bowling
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner;355162 said:
The first part seems to be in super slow motion. Are offspinners no balled very frequently in your experience. I get fast good turn for offspin, but when the captain(a legspinner) saw me bowling it , he told me it looks like a no ball. He did not say anything about the leg spin deliveries, but as I had discussed with edge of willow, there is no straightening in leg spin so we are safe. YouTube - Johann Botha bowling
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No, it's rare that we have anyone no-balled for their action. None of our spinners have any issues with their off-spinners.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I'll have to look at some Warne, although sitting here in front of me is Peter Philpotts 'The Art of wrist spin bowling' and the front page has warne with the ball just about to leave his hand and his toes look as though they're just about to leave the ground. http://www.booktopia.com.au/covers/9781861260635.jpg it's not that clear in this image as it so small. but I'll look elsewhere and see what I come up with.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

macca;355123 said:
Dave , do you muck around with the ball (flipper)that you get by rotating the wrist 90 degrees so the back of your hand faces you and your palm points down the wicket at the batsman.
This ball is an off break but looks similar to the legbreak from the batsmans pont of view. Grimmett describes it well in his books. You know the one.
Well that ball is the one Grimmett and Pepper both tried perfect as they saw it as probably the best way to use the "flipper" at first.
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I'm off now - but I'll keep this post in mind as I'm on the field tomorrow with the kids ready for their game against my team Basildon & Pitsea CC V Grays & Chadwell CC. If I remember I'll give this a go over the full length and see what it's like as it is obviously useful if the bat recognises the Wrong Un what with it's dipping shoulder and out of the back of the hand release. I'll let you know how it goes.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

There's a few images here that are inconclusive, but the last one is the same as the front page of the Peter Philpott book. You can clearly see that the ball is about to come out of the hand and you can see that his foot is in motion to leave the ground at about the same instance and rotate round the pivot leg, which if you look at the other images he does quite dramatically.

Shane Warne turns his arm over during the Hong Kong Cricket Sixes | Photo | Global | Cricinfo.com
Shane Warne bowls on day three of his final MCG Test | Photo | Ashes | Cricinfo.com
Terry Jenner watches Shane Warne bowl in the nets | Photo | Ashes | Cricinfo.com

So looking at this evidence and the point you're making is that I release the ball too late? Therefore I might improve if the release was earlier? I've filmed myself bowling this Sunday just gone I might have a look at that and see if it's any different.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;355145 said:
This is for legspinismylife...........

YouTube - legspin

I reckon some of the others on Big Cricket should have a look at this as well.

1. Your run in is too long and you're zig-zagging all over the place as you run in and then you look off balance as you deliver the ball.
Click to expand...
I won't touch this as my knowledge of run ups is l rather lacking.

someblokecalleddave said:
2. The leading arm looks kind of superficial as though it's not being used to drive the delivery through the rotation.
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Not so sure about this. He pulls his leading arm in quite quickly.

Still his action lacks drive, so it maybe be something to do with the front arm, as that is a principle source of drive.


someblokecalleddave said:
3. The leg that should come up and round the leg you rotate looks weak through the action too.
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I agree with this.

He also seemed to stop looking to the left of his leading arm(bowlers view) in the middle of the action, but it is a too murky for me to conclusively tell if his action is straying into mixed territory. I would show it to Liz.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;355663 said:
There's a few images here that are inconclusive, but the last one is the same as the front page of the Peter Philpott book. You can clearly see that the ball is about to come out of the hand and you can see that his foot is in motion to leave the ground at about the same instance and rotate round the pivot leg, which if you look at the other images he does quite dramatically.

Shane Warne turns his arm over during the Hong Kong Cricket Sixes | Photo | Global | Cricinfo.com
Shane Warne bowls on day three of his final MCG Test | Photo | Ashes | Cricinfo.com
Terry Jenner watches Shane Warne bowl in the nets | Photo | Ashes | Cricinfo.com

So looking at this evidence and the point you're making is that I release the ball too late? Therefore I might improve if the release was earlier? I've filmed myself bowling this Sunday just gone I might have a look at that and see if it's any different.
Click to expand...


lol yes thats what i ment when his foot is just about to come up as he's releasing
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Oh boy! Legspin bowling IS tough! It feels one step forward, two steps back. Getting the ball to spin consistently but dropping short, then overcompensate by throwing a full one, If I concentrate too much on getting the line and length, I just bowl topspinners -

But when it all comes through, it does so very nicely - I get some very nice drift into the leg and it breaks rapidly off the pitch.

I also notice that I get much more spin if I pause just before the delivery stride- I guess that helps in getting the pivot going. Although, I believe that I'm still not getting it right. Sometimes when I try to get the exaggerated pivot going, my right leg knocks the bails off the stumps, Perhaps I should start a little wider.

I was hoping to know the basics of run-up and follow through for legspinners to make sure I'm doing things right. What is the "kick yourself" training that you guys are talking about ?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I've just looked at the video shot on Sunday and it's pretty much the same as Warnes, the ball comes out of the hand just as the toes leave the ground. I was going to upload the video but I got the angle and the cropping slightly wrong and the hand is out the top of the frame, but you can see from the shadow when the ball leaves the hand. I'll try and shoot another sequence soon and try and get the angles and cropping right. The thing is when I bowl on camera I find that I'm too self concious and don't bowl as well, but I'll do anyway and just see how I get on.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

With regards your run in and the movement through the crease I reckon that this is probably the best resource around - YouTube - David Freedman legspin coaching video

The kick yourself in the arse thing was a suggestion made by someone last sept/oct time on here as far as I recall and it's to do with making sure you bring your following through leg up and around the pivoting leg. Admittedly I don't actually bring my leg up so high that my foot touches my arse but the idea got me thinking in terms of lifting the leg in a manner that was more dynamic - have a look at the clip and observe Beau Cassons drive through the crease and the amount of energy he puts into it.

And yes you're right it is hard this Wrist Spinning lark, but I think the rewards are there if you keep at it. Everyone says that young blokes give up on wrist spin so easily because you do need to prove yourself when it matters, I think you've only got to look at the Aussie's since Warne has retired and how much flak the Aussie spinners are getting in the wake of his success. It's taken me 3 years of constant practice - hours and hours on my own in playgrounds, fields, sports halls, net sessions to get to the stage I'm at now, but I had belief, enthusisam and the desire to be a Wrist Spinner. So yeah it is hard and you probably have to work at it more than any other discipline in cricket but once you get it - it is special. Don't give up even if it means you get dropped from being a part of the bowling attack of your team, just carry on and work at it on your own and present yourself to your captain the next season and show him how you've worked on your leg break and that you can now do it.

Yeah one last point if your struggling keep it simple just work with the leg-break. It's the leg break that underpins everything else that you do.

Shrek do you always have a ball with you? Are you always spinning it from hand to hand, or from hand to chest 24-7 almost? A Hockey ball is best as you can use them anywhere - concrete, grass everywhere. Every day at every opportunity I'm spinning a ball looking at my wrist and where it is in relation to the spin. It drives my wife round the bend.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I've now just looked at the youtube clip and that is completely different and you're right the release is massively late in comparison to what I was doing on Sunday. But that may be down to the reason I did the earlier clip in the street surrounded by cars and stuff and bowled it probably really slow without any conviction?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Dave,

I have checked the bowling video of "Leg spin is my life"...if u pause at 1:46 mins then u will see his whole body movement...
His lower body is not in line with his upper body...like his lower body is positioned for off spin and upper body for leg spin....the toes are pointing towards fine leg...which is wrong and should be pointing towards first slip at least.
Can u check and comment on the same...

Virender
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;355280 said:
With regards your run in and the movement through the crease I reckon that this is probably the best resource around - YouTube - David Freedman legspin coaching video

The kick yourself in the arse thing was a suggestion made by someone last sept/oct time on here as far as I recall and it's to do with making sure you bring your following through leg up and around the pivoting leg. Admittedly I don't actually bring my leg up so high that my foot touches my arse but the idea got me thinking in terms of lifting the leg in a manner that was more dynamic - have a look at the clip and observe Beau Cassons drive through the crease and the amount of energy he puts into it.

And yes you're right it is hard this Wrist Spinning lark, but I think the rewards are there if you keep at it. Everyone says that young blokes give up on wrist spin so easily because you do need to prove yourself when it matters, I think you've only got to look at the Aussie's since Warne has retired and how much flak the Aussie spinners are getting in the wake of his success. It's taken me 3 years of constant practice - hours and hours on my own in playgrounds, fields, sports halls, net sessions to get to the stage I'm at now, but I had belief, enthusisam and the desire to be a Wrist Spinner. So yeah it is hard and you probably have to work at it more than any other discipline in cricket but once you get it - it is special. Don't give up even if it means you get dropped from being a part of the bowling attack of your team, just carry on and work at it on your own and present yourself to your captain the next season and show him how you've worked on your leg break and that you can now do it.

Yeah one last point if your struggling keep it simple just work with the leg-break. It's the leg break that underpins everything else that you do.

Shrek do you always have a ball with you? Are you always spinning it from hand to hand, or from hand to chest 24-7 almost? A Hockey ball is best as you can use them anywhere - concrete, grass everywhere. Every day at every opportunity I'm spinning a ball looking at my wrist and where it is in relation to the spin. It drives my wife round the bend.
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot for the freeman video. That is really helpful in understanding the basics. And you got that right about spinning the ball. I have one with me and I keep spinning it until I feel that too much skin has peeled off and I need time off to let the blister heal up on my ring finger.
About the variations - I am trying to bowl only legbreaks until I get decent control over both the spin and the flight. I do find it very easy to bowl the googly so I might throw in 1 or 2 wronguns in a session.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;355668 said:
Leggie Law do you get drift when you bowl and can you decide when you want to use drift or not use it?
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it depends on the conditions aswell, sometimes no matter how hard i rip it, there just wont be much drift whilst other times it goes around batsmens legs, i just try to pitch the ball on off/middle stump and if it drifts to leg stump it should square up the batsmen spinning back towards slips or bowl him round his legs.
if your bowlings quite loopy and slow then drift will be harder to get rather than ripping the ball out at high speed.

what i do is bowl a few leg breaks at the start of my spell if its drifting big then i try to pitch it off stump or just wide and it normal drifts to a dangerous line if its not drifting just vary other things (angle of approach etc..)
 
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