Wrist Spin Bowling

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Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

News of this weeks nets (For more details and context see http://mpafirsteleven.blogspot.com/2009/02/nets-feb-19th-g.html

So the nets. Loads of people there tonight 19 - 20 which is good for the club I'd imagine if they're all coughing up 5 quid to have a go. All the nets were in use and I was sharing a net with Danny (Batting) and The Wizard bowling his big turning Leg Breaks. Now last week and the week before Danny was dealing with my bowling fairly well but this week I was bowling slightly differently using my new small Legbreak quite a bit which is a usefull ball that seemed to get the better of him lots of times. It's a ball that tended to bounce more than my other deliveries and is also much faster than the others too, I've got a feeling that it dips more than the rest as well - it does turn, but I think that the turn is being sacrificed at the expense of top-spin and it's the top spin that is causing the dip?

Terry the coach came over to the Wizard and me and said that he'd been on a Terry Jenner coaching session and had some tips for us. He showed us the stand start drill, saying that the foot should be pointing in the direction of the delivery and the leading hand doing the same, the leading hand should be high and come down acting like a rudder steering the direction of the flight. The following through leg (hips) combined with the rotation of the shoulders gives the ball the drive. He emphasised the cocking of the wrist at the start having it in a position close in to the chest. I find if I do this (Cocking) it increases the chance of producing a wrong un. One point that he did make that correlates with my own experience is the widening of the distance between the 2 up fingers and the 2 fingers especially the 3rd finger on the seam. It's the 3rd finger that creates the spin. We both gave it a go but the Wizard gave up by his third attempt. I kept at it a little longer, but it's something I've already had in mind for when the weather gets better and I've got a bucket with 40 + balls in it to practice with and I can really focus on what I'm doing.

Any way back to 'Swiss' Danny Groves. Yeah I had him bowled at least 8 times maybe as many as 10 times? I may have hit the stumps once but most of it was edged balls that a wicket keeper may have taken, top edge balls that went straight up in the air to the bloke at short extra cover or Mid wicket and at least two that went up in the air that I'd have caught. I should ask him what it was that was causing the problem, but the fact that the majority of the balls seemed to be top edge errors suggests that it was the top-spinning small Leg Breaks.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

1st n 2nd fingers are pretty close together, but they have little affect in the delivery as the spin comes from the 3rd which is more spread around.

GRIP---

my grip is very very loose and i find if i tighten my grip i cant bowl googlies, but i still can bowl leg breaks. I just prefer it loose.

how tight do you guys hold the ball?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

i'd say that a looser grip does lead to a little bit more spin as it allows your wrist to rotate through a larger area. The same principle applies for the spacing of the fingers as this creates a larger moment on the ball which will create more revolutions though it puts more strain on your spinning finger. Effectively in my grip I use my middle finger as both the normal middle finger grip and the ring finger, which means I probablly get alot more strain on my middle finger too(which may explain the occasional finger strains).
Cupping the hand also uses the same principle as your whole wrist will rotate through a larger area creating a larger force on the ball hence more rotations, its all about using all the available angles to generate more spin.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Here's an insight given by my captain who holds our clubs record for taking most wickets in one season -

This comes from one of my blogs - Wrist Spin Bowling: Diary

Leg Breaks; Generally in the nets my bowlings been good again it seems as though there's going to be a massive improvement on last year. Last year I kind of lost the confidence to bowl Flippers and it wasn't till the last 3 or 4 games that I tried them again, but at the moment they're fairly good and accurate. This year the Gipper has come on massively YouTube - The Gipper Wrist Spin Bowling and I'm able to bowl a good line and length with it and vary the way it's delivered and it causes problems. How it converts to proper wickets will be interesting to see. The Wrong un is still there and the top spinner is okay other than the fact that I have a tendency for it to turn into a Wrong un.

But the Leg Break........ I just look at other people bowling it and remember once upon a time I could do it and also that day one summer (I'm losing count now) when I tried the Peter Philpott bowling inwards technique and sussed the Big Leg Break But now I can barely get it to turn. But I'm persevering and slowly it's coming together. When I bowl it in the nets I've had good feedback from Simon (MPA), Neil and Danny. Seemingly of all the balls I bowl it has several extra characteristics -

1. It's considerably faster than the others
2. It dips.
3. It drifts
4. It bounces more

So with that in mind it looks as though I should definitely keep at it, because I do get frustrated with it. The most frustrating thing I find is the bloke I bowl with in the nets The Wizard gets his balls to turn enormously and I just stand thinking how the **** does he do that? But then I despair at the fact that a lot of the time he's throwing the ball into the nets both legside and offside which he does in the games as well. I think he needs to put some hours in maybe just bowling top-spinners at the stumps and getting his line right and then maybe work on bringing the spin in? But what a shame all that spin/turn potential and no accuracy.

Whereas my Leg Break is very accurate line wise but it doesn't have a lot of turn. Lengths a slight problem, but I reckon that'll be easily cured. Another incredibly frustrating aspect is the fact that indoors just flicking the ball around I can get the ball to spin ridiculously like a big leg break but can't convert it to include pushing the ball forward. Going back to the point about the 2 hours when I did get the big leg break I was under the influence of alcohol, so perhaps it may be an idea to get half cut and try it then when I'm far more relaxed - see if that has any beneficial outcome?

Other than that over the next 2 -3 net sessions I'm going to be working 95% on the leg break accepting that it doesn't turn a great deal, work with the fact that I can pitch it on the off stump and just look at the potential of bowling different speeds, lengths, flights etc. This has come about through a conversation on facebook with my captain Neil who holds the club record for the most wickets he said that he can hardly get the ball to turn at all and gets all of his wickets through variation of flight, dip, speed, length with a very week offy action.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

weather is brilliant for march at them moment:)
which ment i could get out to my local nets and develop my bowling.

on the first day i had accuracy troubles forabout an hour because i was struggling to control my drift(i put this down to rusty-ness) but after the first day ive been bowling accurate, getting alot of turn and getting loads of people out. i didnt try any variations except the odd googly which the batsmen never see coming lol

do you guys know of any bowlers tht bowl slow pace like off cutters/ leg cutters as their main bowl because my friend bowls slow pace off cutters but rips them alot so they turn, does any1 know about this type of bowling??????:confused::confused:

Anyway any of you guys made use of this fine weather we've been having in the UK?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

leggielaw;331643 said:
weather is brilliant for march at them moment:)
which ment i could get out to my local nets and develop my bowling.

on the first day i had accuracy troubles forabout an hour because i was struggling to control my drift(i put this down to rusty-ness) but after the first day ive been bowling accurate, getting alot of turn and getting loads of people out. i didnt try any variations except the odd googly which the batsmen never see coming lol

do you guys know of any bowlers tht bowl slow pace like off cutters/ leg cutters as their main bowl because my friend bowls slow pace off cutters but rips them alot so they turn, does any1 know about this type of bowling??????:confused::confused:

Anyway any of you guys made use of this fine weather we've been having in the UK?
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Had a mate who used to bowl them, very containing, not really strike material though. The batsman has to play at most things, but once they're used to it, you see them having ill effect.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

:eek:I do not play with a team , but practice for fun. Whatever I try, I get the seam to point straight ahead ie topspin, or at most the seam pointing to where the wicket keeper would be standing up to the stumps (a very small leg break).
1) Where should the back of the hand be pointing on release.

2) How in heavens can you bowl a BIG legbreak with the seam pointing perpendicular to the wicket (seam pointing from point to square leg sort of) i am sure you leggies understand what i mean.:eek:

3) I am very round arm and yet get more topspin than sidespin which is strange.

4) How do you follow through after delivery. I have good momentum upto delivery but tend to stop 2 paces after delivery.:eek:

5) How can you bowl a slider according to philpot it can be done by moving the wrist a few degrees from the big leg break. He must be joking, you end up throwing or chucking to do that.:eek:

6) Do you concentrate more on getting shape away from the right hander or bowl straighter to try to get LBW. I find bowling straight very difficult even though i get very close to the stumps.

7) Last question I promise. I get a lot of turn under arm ie throwing to a wall or partner, but find it impossible to bowl the slightly backspinning movement during normal bowling which would give me the elusive BIIIG leg break
That is why my spin is sad
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

leggielaw;331643 said:
Anyway any of you guys made use of this fine weather we've been having in the UK?
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Yeah I got out in the street a couple of times with my kids as wicket keeper to their bowling. Also rolled our illicit wicket on Sunday evening for the first time this year. Quite pleased that it's been raining again as this'll soften up the wicket again for another rolling expedition!
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Sadspinner loads of questions and I'm tempted to have a go at all of them although I promised myself I'd get off to bed at a reasonable time!

The big Legbreak - yeah you've obviously read Philpotts book as I have. Like you I bowl a crappy little leg break, but I'm always looking to get the Biggun. The weird thing is I did it a year or two a go when I'd been drinking and I got it to turn big (Or was that beer goggles)? no - I'm certain I did and I reckon it was down to the fact that I was relaxed although I've never replicated it since. Read it again - I think in the instance where he's writing about the Big Leg Break (Hold I'll go and have a look).........
yeah - there has to be a degree of back spin. When I did it I was spinning the ball towards 7-8 oclock e.g. 12 oclock being straight on as in a top-spinner 9 oclock being a leg break and 7-8 oclock with back spin being the Big Leg break. It's hard - really hard.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Hello sadspinner, I also do not play in a team(I'm hoping to change that next year), but I'll have a crack at answering questions.

1) Depends on what delivery you want to bowl. For the big side-spinning leg break(which I'm guessing is the one you want to know) the palm of the should be facing the batsmen after release. In other words if you were to stop your action just after release the batsmen would see the entire front face of your hand, almost like you were about to give him a high five.

Before release the front of you bowling hand should be pointing somewhere between the batsmen's leg side and leg slip. This is very important; if the front of your hand before release is facing between the side of the pitch and straight back behind you there is no way for your hand to get round to the right position to bowl the big leg break.

2) Well my advice would exactly the same as Philpott's: try to spin the ball back towards yourself. That's what gave me the ability to bowl the big side-spinning leg break. And get your wrist in the right position of course.

3) It will be that your wrist position is such that you put mostly over-spin on the ball. Bowling more round-arm does make it easier to get the wrist position into the right place to bowl a side-spinner, but it does not automatically mean that you will do it.

4) He he, I'm probably shouldn't answer this one as my follow thorough is atrocious as well.

5) It can be done. You are wrong on two fronts:

1. It can easily be done with a straight arm. I've done it; it's not so much a change in wrist position before release, but how you spin the ball. Instead of spinning your hand round the ball, you sort of pull backwards giving the ball backspin. At least that's the way I've done it, maybe Phillpott's way is different.

Okay I just did a test. You can bowl a back-spinning delivery with the normal leggie release. It sounds exactly how Phillpott described: my hand was a few degrees further round towards the off side of the batsmen than the with the big leg break before I released.

2. It virtually impossible to chuck as a leggie. It is not how much the elbow bends that determines if it is a throw or not. It is how much the elbow straightens. If as a leggie you if fully straighten your elbow before release it is impossible for it to straighten any further, so it is impossible to chuck. Your elbow may bend, but that's fine. For it to be a throw your elbow must straighten 15 degrees.

6) Well you still need to be able to bowl the big spinning delivery in a spot where it can get the batsmen out, so I would try to bowl everything straight. That said if you work on getting more spin it will likely start out very inaccurate. It is hard to say whether working on accuracy or spin is better. I worked on spin mostly and my accuracy is atrocious; although I have been getting much better in my recent practice sessions. I think that spin is probably harder to add later than accuracy, as you have to learn an entirely new wrist position. But little sideways spin with accuracy, good flight and pace variation can plenty of wickets. Just look at Kumble.

7) Get your wrist in the right position. That is the key.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Season is over for me. Took 12 wickets at an average of 11.5 with a strike rate of 20.

5 games were T20s so that's why I only bowled the 40 overs.

I've developed a wrong un which is good. It actually spins now and bounces quite a bit. Had the opposition in knots in one of the games at the end of the season. Was hitting some good form towards the end of the season. Turning it big (I said earlier in the season I could hardly turn it in matches but could rip it in the nets) and pitching it very well. It's a real shame it's the end of the season.

Now I've gotta wait 7 months to play again (I'm not doing indoor cricket this year). :(
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Sean keep going through the off season _ you're in Aus? Surely the weather allows you to keep going over there? Some of us here in the Northern Hemisphere bowl all winter outside in the freezing bloody cold, and I remember one bloke in Canada was saying he bowls indoors as there's 20' of snow outside - must have had a big house? Keep it up otherwise you might lose that turn?
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

someblokecalleddave;333551 said:
Sean keep going through the off season _ you're in Aus? Surely the weather allows you to keep going over there? Some of us here in the Northern Hemisphere bowl all winter outside in the freezing bloody cold, and I remember one bloke in Canada was saying he bowls indoors as there's 20' of snow outside - must have had a big house? Keep it up otherwise you might lose that turn?
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Won't lose my turn mate. I rarely bowl in the off season and I still turn if in the next season. 10C for us is very cold (Yes I know you poms are sunbaking in that weather). I've made the school team and I've got 2 T20 matches coming up Monday-week. I should get a couple of overs then which is good.

Virendersingh.berthwal;333836 said:
Sean,

7 Months is long time to wait.
Is the 7 months period completely monsoon time?


Virender
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No, it's winter. But it's too much of a hassle to go to the nets. Especially when mates dont want to go as well.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sean you shouldn't give in that easily, us in the uk don't even care if its below 5 degrees in the middle of winter we still try to get out to practice, I have enough trouble stopping for a couple of weeks let alone 7 months.

sadspinner, the big leg break is best practiced by spinning it towards yourself, when bowling from a upright position there shouldn't be any back spin as you are spinning completely into your body from outside the ball. As for the follow through I don't know what spinners you have been watching but I don't recall seeing spinners follow through for 3 steps its more about following through with the arms and most of the momentum is in your action not a runup as generally it doesn't help leg spin much.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Thank you all for your advice.
Gundalf if when bowling the big leg break and you are spinning the ball towards yourself, and you are in a side on position you would have to 'throw' it forward to propell it towards the batsman wouldn't you?

In one of the pages in philpott a picture shows him bowling under arm. One is the wrong one , the other the big leg break. Inthe big leg break the seam of the ball as shown in the picture implies he is bowling with HUGE backspin. I can bowl this underarm but cannot get it overarm over a long distance. It is as though by brain cannot get it.

By the way I also spin the ball off my middle finger not my ring finger, and also use my thumb to help the ring finger spin the ball.

Virender I have a 6 year old video camera but cannot figure out how to download to vista. Besides I do not think it will be too educational.

I would die to get a video of philpott teaching leg spin, I think he is miles better than Jenner, or else the latter prefers keeping his knowledge for his courses.

Changing tack ECB have a dvd called wings to fly or something similar, I tried to contact ECB but told me it is not for sale, except if you are an ECB coach. It has a good chunk on leg spin apparently.

Last thing how many running steps do you take in the run up. I take 6 from the previous 3, and find that I bowl better even though i get the impression that i get speed through delivery but then stop to bowl.
 
Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

sadspinner said:
Gundalf if when bowling the big leg break and you are spinning the ball towards yourself, and you are in a side on position you would have to 'throw' it forward to propell it towards the batsman wouldn't you?
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Two things: All bowlers are facing front on when they deliver. Side-on or front-on refers to how you land before delivering the ball. Even if you are a side-on bowler you will still be front on when you deliver the ball; your body rotates round to face the batsmen.

Secondly, even if you bend your elbow it is not a throw. You can bend you elbow up as much as you want. What you can't do is straighten out your elbow. If your elbow is already fully straightened when you bring your arm over it as impossible to straighten it any further. If your elbow bends up a bit it when you release it doesn't matter because it does not make it a throw. It is the elbow straightening that makes it a throw.
 
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