Wrist Spin Bowling

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Now do this all the time whenever you can, use tennis balls, cricket balls, apples, oranges, cubes - anything just as long as you're using your wrist and this action to impart spin on the object. Do this night and day every day and everywhere you can so that the action becomes embedded as a remembered reflex.

Saddo was asking about Philpotts clinic and the above was his main message "spin the ball, any ball" was his main directive he used Aurthur Maileys line, he was our first great legspinner and he said " an orange spun a hundred times always tastes better"

Your blog on legspin already has the bones of an instruction manual, the photos are excellent , but that frame by frame view you mentioned would really help beginners. Perhaps a selling point of a book could be how to bowl a ball almost lost to history it seems, "Grimmetts mystery ball"

Maybe we should talk private lest someone beats us with the scoop?

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Jenner never bowled a flipper in his playing days ,and I heard he was shown how by Rod Marsh at the cricket academy in Adelaide in the early 90,s.

So you agree that it is bowled on a full length?

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeah you're probably right that's the kind of thing that happens to my ideas! I'm off now we'll discuss more no doubt tomorrow.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

That is it. I will email Mr Jenner and annoy him with Grimmetts flipper.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

You have to have a laugh at the people that comment on youtube when you post up your vids. They're such a knowledgable bunch and full of the joys of humanity.

Here's a prime example. But before you read the comments watch the video http://www.videojug.com/film/how-to-bowl-leg-spin and see how fundamentally wrong it is. Then see how peeved the respondents are. This kind of quantifies my point that there is so little in the way of useful information out there.

Have a look at this gem, another bloke trying to explain it but then seems to lose his way and demonstrates a ball coming out of the back of the hand again and a potential Wrong Un. At this point I've looked at 10 of the first websites using Google that come up when you search 'How to bowl legspin' and apart from the Jenner/Warne videos it's all very rudimentary and in many cases wrong!

Here's that bloke again Mike Whittaker on cricinfo. Not only is he a Flipper denier but he comes up with this theory relating to the Top-Spinner.....

Topsin or Overspin

First of all, lets hold it so its (invisible) axle is at right angles to us, and set it spinning so its top moves away from us and its bottom towards us (Looking from the right hand side, this is clockwise). Now lets throw it, still spinning, away from us towards a suitably attired friend (bat, pads, box, gloves...).

So, what happens when it bounces? The vertical component of its velocity reverses direction, still, just like any other bouncing ball. Its underside is moving towards us, so it will acquire velocity in a direction opposite to that, namely away from us, towards our friend. This will add to the existing horizontal component of its velocity towards him.

The result of this is that the tyre will speed up when it bounces. It will get to him faster than a ordinary, non-spinning tyre, because the component of its velocity towards him has increased, and it won't have had time to bounce as high as a result.

This is topsin. The characteristic behaviour of a topspun object when it bounces, as I hope I've just shown, is that it speeds up and seems to keep low, to 'shoot'.

The bit that I find contentious is the last line 'And seems to keep low - to shoot'

Now please correct me if I'm wrong but the Top Spinner surely rises rather than keeps low? I get very worried when I read this stuff on sites such as cricinfo because it turns my world upside down!

Here's the source http://usa.cricinfo.com/link_to_database/ABOUT_CRICKET/EXPLANATION/LEGSPIN_PHYSICS.html

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeah there does seem to be a reluctance to impart information. But it might just be a reluctance to put pen to paper. I think too that when people do speak out about this as a subject if you've not got the same gravitas/experience as an international player people readily conclude that you are talking out of your ****. I have to go back to the point that I made yesterday that I've never met another spinner who will say to you that he has several variations or has even considered looking at the potential of other variations.

Do you mean they have no variations, or is it that they would not like to share with other leggies.

In your experience do leggies at your club bowl many wides or loose balls. And have you batted in the nets against leggies. If so do you find it easier to pick them?

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Dave some of the faster, taller, bouncier legspinners do prefer a tailwind, that is why Grimmett and O' Rielly combined so well. O' Reilly preferred the wind behind him and Grimmett , of course preferred the opposite.

I cant believe that the only people in the world who seem to know the truth about Grimmetts mystery ball are us. Philpott must Know for instance, I know someone with links to Manly Cricket Club, so maybe I can get to ask him, I have not seen 'Art of Wrist Spin' at the library for ages , but I was sure he went into detail on it, maybe it was in an older edition.

Certainly Grimmetts biographer and people that have reviewed the book " Scarlett" have not gerried to the fact. David Firths review implies he does not know either. There is one passage they rely on where they are clearly confusing his experiments with an iverson style finger "flick" and his work with the finger "click" once you clear that up it becomes obvious.

I cant believe the whole thing, it is not the bloody Da Vinci Code, just read his 1948 book! Bradman carrys so much weight, that just because Bradman did not get the humour in the first book, and was jealous of Grimmett being allowed to write the book on the 1930 boat trip to England, whereas Bradman wrote a book without permission and got into trouble, people just go along with whatever the great batsman says. Grimmett also rubbishes Bradmans' grip and rates several batsmen above Bradman in ability if not record in the 1948 book, but lots in that era rated Trumper a better batsman, I prefer to watch Laxman to Tendulkar, I think Laxman is a better batsman, that is my opinion, no-one can say I am right or wrong despite their records, it all depends how you personally define good batsmanship. So everyone continues to discredit the books. B ut the 1948 book cant be a hoax or complete falshood.

I contacted Mallett one last time , I promised I would not bother him again, but I said mate, you have it all wrong, the ball that dismissed Chipperfield and Barnes in Sydney in 1940 were almost certainly overspinning flippers and not backspinners. I will see what happens.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

That is it. I will email Mr Jenner and annoy him with Grimmetts flipper.

Good idea. He will have something else to use in his courses. Did jenner ever exchange information with grimmett as far as you know?

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I had seen that video jug in the past. It seems to be endorsed by the MCC. Might explain why England recently have not produced a leg spinner of repute. If it really is from the MCC it is really shameful. No wonder he does not turn it at all on the video.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

The Philpott images where he appears to be really ripping the ball could be just down to the fact that the photographer has shot the images at 1/60th or a second or there abouts in order to catch the balls movement. In fact looking at it here it appears that many of the shots are slower say 1/30th as the body is caught moving in other areas, so even a fairly slowly rotating ball would be rendered as a blur.

I reckon they do put a fair amount of spin on the ball though, but I'm sure that I've read here or elsewhere that the ball doesn't have to be spinning that massively in order to turn off the wicket. If it lands on the seam even with a little rotation there's going to be some deviation? This is somewhat quantified by my straight arm leg break that relies on the 3rd finger doing all the work in imparting the spin, because when it does land on the seam it deviates well, whereas if the it lands on the smooth areas of the ball it's less effective.

The other thing is I think when you're at Warnes level and perhaps with the experience of Jenner difficult stuff is made to look ridiculously easy, I'm finding that my current grip that I'm getting this big flick with, it looks very easy and laid back, but it just seems as though it's far more effortless and effective in putting the spin on the ball, which looks to be the key to the next big stage in my own leg break development.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I'm sure that many of the comments on youtube are made by the likes of 17 year old kids at college with nothing better to do rather than try and illicit reponses from people. You only have to look at the garbage that's on there relating to both the Murali and Warne videos. I think people have commented on one of the clips of my son Joe about how rubbish he is, but I don't even bother looking anymore and if I upload them in future I think I'll probably use the feature on there that denies access to virtually everyone other than people you want to see them. I think there's something like that on there.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Do you mean they have no variations, or is it that they would not like to share with other leggies.

In your experience do leggies at your club bowl many wides or loose balls. And have you batted in the nets against leggies. If so do you find it easier to pick them?

There's our Chinaman who I can do quite well against by leaving all his balls that are moving away from the bat or if the length is right play him off the back foot. He's good and rarely bowls wides and no-balls. My mate the Wizard who's a leggie makes it turn really well and is fast, you just have to watch anything that is legside with him and not be tempted to come out of your crease. But if you bide your time he starts getting frustrated and starts bowling wides and bad balls and then get the Yips.

I can't pick them I just have to watch them in and play them on Merit.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I contacted Mallett one last time , I promised I would not bother him again, but I said mate, you have it all wrong, the ball that dismissed Chipperfield and Barnes in Sydney in 1940 were almost certainly overspinning flippers and not backspinners. I will see what happens.

Whoa! I wonder what he'll make of that?

With regards the wind that sounds as though it'll work out fine then, I'll bowl into the wind and the Wizard will take the Bill O'reilly approach. Did you see the comment earlier about the Top Spinner - what do you reckon?

Terry Jenner "This is a lovely ball when the batsman is looking to drive because you get extra bounce and you can get caught and bowled".

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

The Philpott images where he appears to be really ripping the ball could be just down to the fact that the photographer has shot the images at 1/60th or a second or there abouts in order to catch the balls movement. In fact looking at it here it appears that many of the shots are slower say 1/30th as the body is caught moving in other areas, so even a fairly slowly rotating ball would be rendered as a blur.

I reckon they do put a fair amount of spin on the ball though, but I'm sure that I've read here or elsewhere that the ball doesn't have to be spinning that massively in order to turn off the wicket. If it lands on the seam even with a little rotation there's going to be some deviation? This is somewhat quantified by my straight arm leg break that relies on the 3rd finger doing all the work in imparting the spin, because when it does land on the seam it deviates well, whereas if the it lands on the smooth areas of the ball it's less effective.

The other thing is I think when you're at Warnes level and perhaps with the experience of Jenner difficult stuff is made to look ridiculously easy, I'm finding that my current grip that I'm getting this big flick with, it looks very easy and laid back, but it just seems as though it's far more effortless and effective in putting the spin on the ball, which looks to be the key to the next big stage in my own leg break development.

Yes thank you about the photography piece, possibly due to the cloudy weather they had to use 1/60 rather than say 1/125 or whatever. But do you notice that in his hand to hand flick jenner does not seem to use much of a flick, and there are very few revs on the ball? Do you get more revs than him from hand to hand. I do and I am sure I am not a big flicker/revver/flicker.


As regards the ball landing on the seam, I fully agree.I use 6 balls. 4, I have been using for 2 years and have practically lost their seam, while 2 are newer. When they hit the seam, they bounce/spit more off the surface, also probably as they are harder.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Dave some of the faster, taller, bouncier legspinners do prefer a tailwind, that is why Grimmett and O' Rielly combined so well. O' Reilly preferred the wind behind him and Grimmett , of course preferred the opposite.

I cant believe that the only people in the world who seem to know the truth about Grimmetts mystery ball are us. Philpott must Know for instance, I know someone with links to Manly Cricket Club, so maybe I can get to ask him, I have not seen 'Art of Wrist Spin' at the library for ages , but I was sure he went into detail on it, maybe it was in an older edition.

Certainly Grimmetts biographer and people that have reviewed the book " Scarlett" have not gerried to the fact. David Firths review implies he does not know either. There is one passage they rely on where they are clearly confusing his experiments with an iverson style finger "flick" and his work with the finger "click" once you clear that up it becomes obvious.

I cant believe the whole thing, it is not the bloody Da Vinci Code, just read his 1948 book! Bradman carrys so much weight, that just because Bradman did not get the humour in the first book, and was jealous of Grimmett being allowed to write the book on the 1930 boat trip to England, whereas Bradman wrote a book without permission and got into trouble, people just go along with whatever the great batsman says. Grimmett also rubbishes Bradmans' grip and rates several batsmen above Bradman in ability if not record in the 1948 book, but lots in that era rated Trumper a better batsman, I prefer to watch Laxman to Tendulkar, I think Laxman is a better batsman, that is my opinion, no-one can say I am right or wrong despite their records, it all depends how you personally define good batsmanship. So everyone continues to discredit the books. B ut the 1948 book cant be a hoax or complete falshood.

I contacted Mallett one last time , I promised I would not bother him again, but I said mate, you have it all wrong, the ball that dismissed Chipperfield and Barnes in Sydney in 1940 were almost certainly overspinning flippers and not backspinners. I will see what happens.

It is a shame that such gems such as this 1948 book are never reprinted. Woolmer in his manual quotes grimmett only. As far as I know he does not mention jenner. He also states that the ultimate reference though is philpotts book. I also cannot understand how people can write a biography of a person just because he coached him. I do not get the impression that the gentleman has a great understanding of leg spin. He should stick to a manual of offspin, for which he is very good.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

There's our Chinaman who I can do quite well against by leaving all his balls that are moving away from the bat or if the length is right play him off the back foot. He's good and rarely bowls wides and no-balls. My mate the Wizard who's a leggie makes it turn really well and is fast, you just have to watch anything that is legside with him and not be tempted to come out of your crease. But if you bide your time he starts getting frustrated and starts bowling wides and bad balls and then get the Yips.

I can't pick them I just have to watch them in and play them on Merit.

When i tried facing an offspinner, I always found myself rocking on the backfoot. I found it very difficult to take a big step on the front foot. The chinaman getting the ball away from your bat. Do you mean he bowls mainly wrong ones to right handers?

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

By the way the great geoffrey boycott, considers the greatest legspinner to be an english man....Sydney Barnes. Some say he was more of a medium pacer though, much like O'Reilly.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Do you mean they have no variations, or is it that they would not like to share with other leggies?

Probably a bit of both. There's also an element of psychology involved as I'm sure that they're all aware of the potential to keep quiet about what they can and can't do and then when the ball comes off the pitch and turns into the batsman they'll then claim it was intentional. Only my Captain Neil the Chinaman seems to have the ability to turn it both ways and vary the dip/top-spin but he concedes that he doesn't turn it much. His key weapon is his experience and ability to read the bats weaknesses and then vary his pace, length and dip. His leg break is fast but then it just drops out of the sky - it's very impressive.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Macca, are you aware of any 'manuals' on leg spin by O'Reilly. He was very good at writing, so I would not really be surprised.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Probably a bit of both. There's also an element of psychology involved as I'm sure that they're all aware of the potential to keep quiet about what they can and can't do and then when the ball comes off the pitch and turns into the batsman they'll then claim it was intentional. Only my Captain Neil the Chinaman seems to have the ability to turn it both ways and vary the dip/top-spin but he concedes that he doesn't turn it much. His key weapon is his experience and ability to read the bats weaknesses and then vary his pace, length and dip. His leg break is fast but then it just drops out of the sky - it's very impressive.

So he uses mainly topspin. From your website it looks like he is the biggest wicket taker. Does he tell you how much he practices or has he given you any hints?

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Topsin or Overspin

First of all, lets hold it so its (invisible) axle is at right angles to us, and set it spinning so its top moves away from us and its bottom towards us (Looking from the right hand side, this is clockwise). Now lets throw it, still spinning, away from us towards a suitably attired friend (bat, pads, box, gloves...).

So, what happens when it bounces? The vertical component of its velocity reverses direction, still, just like any other bouncing ball. Its underside is moving towards us, so it will acquire velocity in a direction opposite to that, namely away from us, towards our friend. This will add to the existing horizontal component of its velocity towards him.

The result of this is that the tyre will speed up when it bounces. It will get to him faster than a ordinary, non-spinning tyre, because the component of its velocity towards him has increased, and it won't have had time to bounce as high as a result.

This is topsin. The characteristic behaviour of a topspun object when it bounces, as I hope I've just shown, is that it speeds up and seems to keep low, to 'shoot'.

The bit that I find contentious is the last line 'And seems to keep low - to shoot'

Now please correct me if I'm wrong but the Top Spinner surely rises rather than keeps low? I get very worried when I read this stuff on sites such as cricinfo because it turns my world upside down!

Here's the source Cricinfo - The physics of legspin bowling

Well that does not describe the legspinners topspinner, but of course it does descibe the overspinning flipper in that it does not bounce any where near as much as the conventional topspinner, but the author does not mean that so he is wrong I suppose.

I still had not got the release right untill I read Daves description and now I release it more facing me and the result seems to defy convention in that it seems to really gather pace on pitching after such a slow loop and unbelievable drop.

No wonder Grimmett was bitter at missing the 38 ashes tour, he had just perfected the ball in that same year that would have been devastating on English wickets, especially if you had not faced it before.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I'll have to look at Jenners hand to hand flick and see how much he rips it. I'm considering filming a clip for the Blog showing the Philpott hand to hand and hand to chest techniques by way of improving the leg-spin info. So it'll be interesting to see how it compares?

No he mixes his deliveries up. I reckon he probably bowls Top-spinners and Leg Breaks which come into to your nuts mainly and the rare wrong un that goes away from you.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

By the way the great geoffrey boycott, considers the greatest legspinner to be an english man....Sydney Barnes. Some say he was more of a medium pacer though, much like O'Reilly.

Yes statistically Sydney Barnes may be the greatest bowler in history with Grimmett a close second. Although just as Bradman did not consider O'Reilly to be a legspinner so Barnes was more a legcutter. Bradman called Grimmett the greatest of the slow legspinners. After Bradman and Warne were both voted in the 5 Wisden Cricketers of the 20 century Bradman left out Warne in his alltime Austalian Team but found a spot for Grimmett.

Bradman nominates O ' Rielly the greateast bowler he saw, but I think that is tit for tat for Grimmetts nomination of Trumper as the best batsman he saw. Grimmett had more success bowling to the Don than O' Rielly, and O' Reilly said the greatest bowler he ever saw was Grimmett.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I'll have to look at Jenners hand to hand flick and see how much he rips it. I'm considering filming a clip for the Blog showing the Philpott hand to hand and hand to chest techniques by way of improving the leg-spin info. So it'll be interesting to see how it compares?

No he mixes his deliveries up. I reckon he probably bowls Top-spinners and Leg Breaks which come into to your nuts mainly and the rare wrong un that goes away from you.

Yes that would be very interesting. In IPL I also saw Mishra(an indian leggie) and warne perform what i think is the backward flick/backspinning legbreak/hand to chest. It is very different to what i thought it would look like. You have to see it to understan as it is difficult to put in words. But there they really spin it. Much more than in the hand to hand. I do not know if I can say this but I see some match** on p2p sites.

I am sorry for the nuts.Thank god he is not a fast bowler.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Saddo how much info is there in the Woolmer book? I heard there wasn't a great deal. I also read in an old leg spin thread on here that the Wings to Fly video features Jenner. I wonder how much he's going to add to the stuff that's freely available on the net?

I've just had a look at the BBC version of the Jenner video where he bowls indoors and noticed something he says and does relating to the Flipper. His delivery is a loopier version of the ball well above the batsmans eye level and he goes on to say that you pitch it shorter than any of the other balls. This is something I've been working on, but I reckon you could only get away with it once or twice with any batsman.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

So he uses mainly topspin. From your website it looks like he is the biggest wicket taker. Does he tell you how much he practices or has he given you any hints?

Yeah he holds the record which he took last year, but he does bowl at the latter stages 5 onwards generally whereas me and the Wizard get to bowl at the first 4 or 5. I don't know how much he practices but he's about 25 -30 and has played cricket since he was 6 or something, it's all he's ever known and he plays all winter indoors and 3 times a week in the summer if not more. Yeah he's good with coaching and if you ask him stuff he'll tell you generally. I think he likes my enthusiasm and determination to get things right and he's an avid reader of my blog and for all I know this thread?

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Here's that bloke again Mike Whittaker on cricinfo. Not only is he a Flipper denier but he comes up with this theory relating to the Top-Spinner.....

Topsin or Overspin

First of all, lets hold it so its (invisible) axle is at right angles to us, and set it spinning so its top moves away from us and its bottom towards us (Looking from the right hand side, this is clockwise). Now lets throw it, still spinning, away from us towards a suitably attired friend (bat, pads, box, gloves...).

So, what happens when it bounces? The vertical component of its velocity reverses direction, still, just like any other bouncing ball. Its underside is moving towards us, so it will acquire velocity in a direction opposite to that, namely away from us, towards our friend. This will add to the existing horizontal component of its velocity towards him.

The result of this is that the tyre will speed up when it bounces. It will get to him faster than a ordinary, non-spinning tyre, because the component of its velocity towards him has increased, and it won't have had time to bounce as high as a result.

This is topsin. The characteristic behaviour of a topspun object when it bounces, as I hope I've just shown, is that it speeds up and seems to keep low, to 'shoot'.

The bit that I find contentious is the last line 'And seems to keep low - to shoot'

Now please correct me if I'm wrong but the Top Spinner surely rises rather than keeps low? I get very worried when I read this stuff on sites such as cricinfo because it turns my world upside down!

Here's the source Cricinfo - The physics of legspin bowling

Yes he gets it completely wrong. Thank god that even people who are interested in leg spin get it wrong.That means that batsmen should not have a clue. I must confess that when I see a leggie on tv, even I find it difficult to notice what variation is being bowled ,bar the legspinner at normal speeds. Reading from the hand takes experience. Thats why the Indians played warne better.They are more used to playing leggies since they are young. So they are closer to doing/playing it 10,000 times. It is automatic for them like driving a car.You can see this when india first played mendis. They had no clue, as they had never faced anything of the sort before. So dave, cover drive 10,000 times and you should be more elegant than Vaughan(though you may get the same runs as him). Just being nasty.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yeah he holds the record which he took last year, but he does bowl at the latter stages 5 onwards generally whereas me and the Wizard get to bowl at the first 4 or 5. I don't know how much he practices but he's about 25 -30 and has played cricket since he was 6 or something, it's all he's ever known and he plays all winter indoors and 3 times a week in the summer if not more. Yeah he's good with coaching and if you ask him stuff he'll tell you generally. I think he likes my enthusiasm and determination to get things right and he's an avid reader of my blog and for all I know this thread?

That would be great. Maybe a hint to join in the discussion?

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Macca, are you aware of any 'manuals' on leg spin by O'Reilly. He was very good at writing, so I would not really be surprised.

I dont think he wrote one manual, but there is lots to learn from his articles. His method is put down on paper by Benaud who says he based his simple instuctions on O'Reiilys advise to him. Even one of the last pieces he wrote on Warne is fascinating, O'Rielly is full of field placing suggestions in his articles plus lots of other sage observations from a wise old legspinner.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Neil - if you're out there (and you Wizard) join in with some comments even if you post them during the day to give us old blokes something to mull over or try?

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Saddo how much info is there in the Woolmer book? I heard there wasn't a great deal. I also read in an old leg spin thread on here that the Wings to Fly video features Jenner. I wonder how much he's going to add to the stuff that's freely available on the net?

There is not a shed load. But to be fair on him he quotes the 2 greatest books, those by grimmett and philpott, so he did his research well. I think jenner keeps added information for the clinics he undertakes. If he publishes a manual what will he have left to say in his clinics. On you tube there is an old clip of warne coaching/teaching the legbreak, so he must have done a video early in his carreer. I get the impression that there must be a conspiracy wherby leg spinners have an oath of not exposing too much knowledge, a sort of freemasonary. Everything is unwritten and transcended by word of mouth only. What do you think?

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

In the games you played what would you say is roughly the average percentage of legiies compared to fast, medium paced bowlers and offies?

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I've just had a look at the BBC version of the Jenner video where he bowls indoors and noticed something he says and does relating to the Flipper. His delivery is a loopier version of the ball well above the batsmans eye level and he goes on to say that you pitch it shorter than any of the other balls. This is something I've been working on, but I reckon you could only get away with it once or twice with any batsman.

Many times I suspected that he got that wrong. In tennis when I used to hit with backspin I prayed it would not go beyond the baseline. It definitely travels further than side or topspin, and obviously bounces less. Many of the flippers by warne I thought were quite full and not short, though I may be mistaken.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I'm out of here - it's been a busy night tonight on here, I've quite enjoyed the conversations. See you later.

Generally in the games I play there's two Right arm leggies and Neil. This game Sunday with 4 of us is the first time ever there's been four.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I dont think he wrote one manual, but there is lots to learn from his articles. His method is put down on paper by Benaud who says he based his simple instuctions on O'Reiilys advise to him. Even one of the last pieces he wrote on Warne is fascinating, O'Rielly is full of field placing suggestions in his articles plus lots of other sage observations from a wise old legspinner.

Yes, I read a couple of his articles. He seemed a very intelligent and humorous person. His article when Grimmett died, that is present on cricinfo shows what a great esteem he had for Grum. But lets face it we still identify more with unathletic looking grimmett, and whatever the don says, we feel that grimmett was better.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

I'm out of here - it's been a busy night tonight on here, I've quite enjoyed the conversations. See you later.

Generally in the games I play there's two Right arm leggies and Neil. This game Sunday with 4 of us is the first time ever there's been four.

More work for me tomorrow , so I am out of here. Very enlightening as usual here.

 

[macca]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

There is not a shed load. But to be fair on him he quotes the 2 greatest books, those by grimmett and philpott, so he did his research well. I think jenner keeps added information for the clinics he undertakes. If he publishes a manual what will he have left to say in his clinics. On you tube there is an old clip of warne coaching/teaching the legbreak, so he must have done a video early in his carreer. I get the impression that there must be a conspiracy wherby leg spinners have an oath of not exposing too much knowledge, a sort of freemasonary. Everything is unwritten and transcended by word of mouth only. What do you think?

It was more like a tradesman guild, and secrets were kept and handed down. Grimmetts trade as a signwriter operated the same way. Trade secrets were important and possible in the old days, but not anymore.

 

[The Edge Of Willow]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Yes that would be very interesting. In IPL I also saw Mishra(an indian leggie) and warne perform what i think is the backward flick/backspinning legbreak/hand to chest. It is very different to what i thought it would look like. You have to see it to understan as it is difficult to put in words. But there they really spin it. Much more than in the hand to hand.

I have had a similar experience: I get more revs in the full action than from tossing hand-to-hand.

It is a while since I've seen a good leg-spinner bowl; but from my experience the big difference in the hand-to-chest is the wrist position. The wrist is turned so that the full face of the palm is facing the bowler.

 

[sadspinner]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

Do you get the impression that when jenner throws the ball from hand to hand across the body he does not seem to put too many revs on the ball. Even wrne in the IPL last week while waiting to bowl seemed to throw the ball from hand to hand rather than really tweak/rip it. In the pictures on the philpott book tou can see the seam as being very fuzzy, as though he is really ripping it. That is the impression I get from the jenner videos on bbc amd masterclass. He seems to spin it more for the flipper(though not as much as dave on you tube)

 

[Ripping-LegBreak]

Re: Wrist Spin Bowling

It's opposite to me, when i flick it hand to hand i impart alot of revs that my finger hurts, same can't be said when i bowl it with the full action. Maybe you have to get everything in your action perfect to impart maximum spin,

I have a question about the pivot, should your pivot finish with your front foot pointing at square leg, In my action my front toe points at legslip ( or should it be straighter?) then i focus on pivoting till my front foot finish a near 90 degree turn.

Also i've been told to add more flow to my action as currently i stop in the delivery stride and slowly transfer the weight from backleg to front leg, this reduced momentum but i don't know how to go about altering the delivery stride to give me more power through the crease, any ideas?