Leg spin- follow through/body rotation

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Re: Leg spin- follow through/body rotation

No, sorry Dave, I was referring to when the non-bowling arm tucks into the ribs later on in the action. Philpott says that many bowlers let that arm splay out and back before they should, i.e. they start to open their body position too early. He says that the arm tuck should be maintained a fraction longer before the pivot alows the arm to splay away from the body. I don't see any problem with your leading arm at the point in the action you describe.
 
Re: Leg spin- follow through/body rotation

chrisbell;409189 said:
No, sorry Dave, I was referring to when the non-bowling arm tucks into the ribs later on in the action. Philpott says that many bowlers let that arm splay out and back before they should, i.e. they start to open their body position too early. He says that the arm tuck should be maintained a fraction longer before the pivot alows the arm to splay away from the body. I don't see any problem with your leading arm at the point in the action you describe.
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So your saying that the leading arm rather than allowing it to fling through and round as I've done in this sequence should be kept more compact and tidy? I looked at Warne just now in this YouTube - IPL 2009: Best Of Shane Warne at 6'42" and his arm is kept more under control and doesn't flail away behind as mine does - is that the kind of thing? I need to read Philpott again I reckon.
 
Re: Leg spin- follow through/body rotation

Yeah - obviously the arm has to flail away from the body during the follow-through, but Philpott certainly warns against letting it move too soon during the action, because this can cause the upper body to open up as the bowling arm is coming over, thus causing inaccuracy. If you look at still images of Warne before he's released the ball, you'll see that his left arm is tucked across the of his thigh with the upper arm quite close in to the side of his body. On that side-on footage of your acion, your left arm looks to be describing a continuous arc from the "pointing at the sky" part initially through to fully flailed out during the follow-through. Obviously, it's hard to tell from that angle whether you are tucking it in, but it doesn't seem to pause by your side at all.

If you pause that video at 0.48, you'll see Warne's left arm almost disappears from view because it's tucked well in, and there's a slight pause where it stays there for an instant before it flails out and back.
 
Re: Leg spin- follow through/body rotation

Yeah you're right, that bit of footage you've just mentioned is the bit that I'm looking at primarily to make these observations. I'll have a look at that next time I have a practice, probably make it my priority and see what it does to the result. Cheers.

Also means that I need to re-do the stand start drill videos as they have the flailing arm.
 
Re: Leg spin- follow through/body rotation

Obviously I'm no expert, but, having read Philpott recently, especially the section on common technical faults, he is adamant that there are few cases in which action is the main problem, but those few situations where it is faulty can lead to problems.
 
Re: Leg spin- follow through/body rotation

It's worth looking at, watching the IPL 2008 and 2009 clips on youtube Warnes arm doesn't go flailing behind him in the same way as mine, but at the same time I wouldn't say that it's a positive tuck. I've had a go earlier with a wind-ball and it felt awkward, but needs some commitment and time looking at it properly. Raining today so it's not going to happen in the short term.
 
Re: Leg spin- follow through/body rotation

I think his tuck was more pronounced earlier in his career. I don't think it's something to get hung up on, just perhaps something to bear in mind to try and incase you start opening up too soon. I do think it might be worth trying angling your approach a touch, say 10 degrees for example, to help getting sideways on as it may help your back foot land parallel to the popping crease. That said, because of my disability, I can't say first-hand whether it makes any difference, but I wonder, if your back foot is rotating after landing whether it may be putting torque through your knee that may not be good? As I said, I don't think your stride is excessively short - my understanding is that it should be long enough to help keep the momentum going straight, but short enough so that you get over and then around the braced front leg during follow-through.
 
Re: Leg spin- follow through/body rotation

Here's an example of what I mean.
shane_warne_2.jpg
 
Re: Leg spin- follow through/body rotation

I've just watched some McGill footage and his arm leads the way, drives down positively but comes in and past his body close, but then flails upwards behind him in the manner that mine does. I'll have to look at what I'm doing and see if the arm is away from the body?
 
Re: Leg spin- follow through/body rotation

you need to be extremely careful about breaking your action down this much Dave. i think theres more danger of you ruining it than finding improvements by keep comparing yourself to other bowlers using photographs and low quality videos. photos and poor videos really dont show you the details of the actions, and photos can be very misleading. i uploaded a shot of myself compared to Warne at 3 or 4 freeze frames in our actions and i looked very similar, but in reality my action is nothing at all like Warnes.

a better way to analyse your action is to record it and then look at it, dont compare it to other bowlers, but adjust it based on what you can observe of your own action and where it is going wrong. this is how i work on mine. you really cant try to copy other bowlers too much, as you can clearly see on those pictures of Warne, Qadir and MacGill there is no right way to bowl, they all turned a ball big, but they couldnt be more different.

start out by going with what is natural, then work out what isnt working in your action and adjust it. i dont think its possible to construct a "perfect" action from the ground up by adding one element at a time. your body may not be equipped for certain aspects of it, and then youll end up with a mix and match of different actions that dont work together. let your arms and legs work naturally, and then refine it.
 
Re: Leg spin- follow through/body rotation

Yeah I'm not getting too hung up on it, I'm quite pleased with what I've got so far. I'm going to have a go at tucking the arm in a bit in the short term, to see if that works, or maybe not have it flail around out the back as much.
 
Re: Leg spin- follow through/body rotation

Dave, couldnt agree more with Jim about not worrying too much about individual snap shots of your action vs a frozen frame or picture of someone else. Although Liz would probably not agree as its very much a generalisation, the back foot position you are querying in the latest video probably has more to do with front/side on actions than whether the ball spins or not.

Obviously having changed your action so radically in the past few weeks the temptation is to change to 'the best' action but in truth there is only 'the best for you'. Personally I liked the walk through approach because it took away the angled front leg which seemed to inhibit rather than aid your action and you hip drive is much better now. Not sure that your back (right) foot should swivel once grounded, you could try to get a bit more sideways on slightly earlier in your delivery (I know there is no bound as such but effectively you are going from a mixed action to side on with your foot on the ground) which would probably result in your back foot landing closer to its final position (square) giving you a firmer base to drive forward to your front foot. I wouldnt worry too much about lengthening your delivery stride for the time being as you seem pretty balanced at present
 
Re: Leg spin- follow through/body rotation

No... totally agree with everything Jim has said :). He has a good feel for it. I especially agree that the action must be natural to the bowler; it is essential. As Jim alludes, no two bowlers bowl the same; they work with what God gave them. You may like the way x, or y, does something but this could be totally wrong with your own structural make up.

I also totally agree with Tony's comment with respct to the back foot contact. Be more decisive, make the contact, preferably side on and don't move it until third knee lift.
 
This'll have to be brought back up to the top soon as I'm making even more dramatic changes to my action leading up to the start of the new season. Not only have I lost the skip since the end of last season, but now I'm looking to have a proper bound. Bowling through October and November last year with the new walk in action, it became apparent that the key thing that was missing from this was the fact that it was difficult to get the right foot to land side on and therefore my body ready and side on for the 180 rotation. Giving it some thought indoors over the winter the only conclusion I could come to was that I had to learn how to do a proper 'Bound' in order that I could go into the delivery side on. I'd rectified my older sons bowling a couple of years ago when he was bowling off the wrong foot and I recalled that I'd had to show him the bound, so back then I'd been able to show him an over exaggerated version of it and so concluded if I spent some time on it, I should be able to do it? With the help of my younger son Joe watching him in the living room I managed to get it together fairly quickly primarily focusing on the need to land with the foot side on to facilitate the rotation. Since then I've been having a go with it and it does look as though with some work, I'm going to be able to bowl with a bound in a few weeks or certainly before the season.
 
someblokecalleddave said:
This'll have to be brought back up to the top soon as I'm making even more dramatic changes to my action leading up to the start of the new season. Not only have I lost the skip since the end of last season, but now I'm looking to have a proper bound. Bowling through October and November last year with the new walk in action, it became apparent that the key thing that was missing from this was the fact that it was difficult to get the right foot to land side on and therefore my body ready and side on for the 180 rotation. Giving it some thought indoors over the winter the only conclusion I could come to was that I had to learn how to do a proper 'Bound' in order that I could go into the delivery side on. I'd rectified my older sons bowling a couple of years ago when he was bowling off the wrong foot and I recalled that I'd had to show him the bound, so back then I'd been able to show him an over exaggerated version of it and so concluded if I spent some time on it, I should be able to do it? With the help of my younger son Joe watching him in the living room I managed to get it together fairly quickly primarily focusing on the need to land with the foot side on to facilitate the rotation. Since then I've been having a go with it and it does look as though with some work, I'm going to be able to bowl with a bound in a few weeks or certainly before the season.
Click to expand...

If you concentrate on getting properly side on and looking to the left of your leading arm doesnt your back foot automatically land 90 degrees to the pitch like it should?
Keep at it though Dave. I had many dispiriting sessions where I just concentrated on my action but it has really come together now. One benefit of not having a really good action naturally is that Ive had to learn a lot about the mechanics of bowling, mostly through trial and error, but now Im starting to pick up why I bowled it short or full or down leg side which is a real help.
 
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