Wrist Spin Bowling (part Five)

[boogiespinner]

I think your bowling is over 40mph Dave, I think one that hits the stumps starting at around :52 is 43mph or so out of the hand.

I think I have a good method for getting the ball speed now. My method is this: slow down the video on youtube to 1/4 speed, then with a stopwatch measure the time from release to hitting the stumps. Then do the same for a spin bowler on TV where you are given the radar gun speed. Then your speed is approximately their speed * their time / your time. I think this should be accurate to within a few mph. If you are measuring a ball that hits the back of a net there is an adjustment to be made.

(one of my deliveries looks around 30mph... think I have a bit of speeding up to do).

 

[someblokecalleddave]

I think your bowling is over 40mph Dave, I think one that hits the stumps starting at around :52 is 43mph or so out of the hand.

I think I have a good method for getting the ball speed now. My method is this: slow down the video on youtube to 1/4 speed, then with a stopwatch measure the time from release to hitting the stumps. Then do the same for a spin bowler on TV where you are given the radar gun speed. Then your speed is approximately their speed * their time / your time. I think this should be accurate to within a few mph. If you are measuring a ball that hits the back of a net there is an adjustment to be made.

(one of my deliveries looks around 30mph... think I have a bit of speeding up to do).

I haven't got a clue, I had it measured about 6 or 7 years ago with a speed gun, but that was with the 'Skip' method which on reflection may have been slower because I always came off of 3 or 4 steps and seemed slow. At that time my stock ball was about 35mph and my flipper was clocked at 42mph. So, you might be right? I had a bowl yesterday with a run in using the principles that Glen McGrath discusses in a SKY TV master-class which doesn't seem to be on Youtube. Can't remember if I've already said it on here already, but he suggests just running along a straight line somewhere with your starting point marked out, run until you find the point where it feels rhythmic enough for you to then go into the delivery stride. He says to do that a number of times (Think he suggested about 10 times) establishing the point where land, I think he says to get someone to help with this. Then once you've established a consistent landing point measure it out by walking it and that's your run in sorted.

I had a go at this yesterday (Thinking about bracing my leg and getting more side on) and I came up with the longest run up I've ever used, but it had no stuttering as I have at the moment on my usual longer run up, it seemed very rhythmic and added far more pace - easily the fastest method I've come up with so far. Down-side was the obvious pay off with turn off the pitch, but accuracy was good - hitting the mat still frequently. Despite the up-turn in pace, I came away with my Achilles still very much intact which was good too. I may pursue this over the week and see how it goes as I bowled awful at the weekend despite taking a wicket off of about 6 overs for not too many runs.

If you're saying I'm bowling at 40mph in the vid, this new method might be somewhere in the 45-5o region in that case as it seems so much faster and more aggressive.

 

[Cleanprophet]

Warne's on sky commentating talking about Moeen Ali (He's just bowled Warner) and Bumble's just said about how much Moeen gets the ball to fizz, saying that you can hear it. Warne's just said "The secret to that is to have a really loose grip, that'll get the ball fizzing".

That's something Warne has said a lot. Almost every masterclass I've seen him do he has mentioned that he had a looser grip than more legspinners and that helps get more leverage on the ball and, as a result, more revs. That's the plus side of a loose grip. The negative is, naturally, it is harder to control.

Also, I don't think Warne had a "really loose grip". Just a grip that was more relaxed than more legspinners.

 

[Cleanprophet]

I think your bowling is over 40mph Dave, I think one that hits the stumps starting at around :52 is 43mph or so out of the hand.

I think I have a good method for getting the ball speed now. My method is this: slow down the video on youtube to 1/4 speed, then with a stopwatch measure the time from release to hitting the stumps. Then do the same for a spin bowler on TV where you are given the radar gun speed. Then your speed is approximately their speed * their time / your time. I think this should be accurate to within a few mph. If you are measuring a ball that hits the back of a net there is an adjustment to be made.

(one of my deliveries looks around 30mph... think I have a bit of speeding up to do).

That's an interesting way of measuring speed. I'm going to post some videos of my bowling in a little while. I want to show the issue I'm having with my release. One of the clips shows two deliveries at normal speed and then at 1/4 speed, so you can work out the actual speed I would think. I'd be interested to know the speed of it.

 

[Cleanprophet]

ok, here's a few videos of my bowling to highlight the issues I'm having with the release. First up, here's the slow motion of my bowling action back in March. I had to curb my follow through a little because there was some snow/ice in front of me and it was a touch slippy. Maybe that helped, I don't know. But I think my action here (bowling at about 80%) is pretty good. The only issue is that front arm pointing down leg rather than down the wicket. But that never really affected my accuracy:



Next up is my bowling from earlier today (in slow motion 1/4 speed). This is probably me at about 60%-70%. Very relaxed and by no means a good ball, but the technique is pretty much the same as it was in the above video:




This next one is me close to flat out and you can see how the hand is now coming over the top of the ball as in a topspinner/googly:



The last one is the second delivery from the above video in 1/4 speed. As you can see, the ball turns a little, which suggests the ball is coming out with about 80% or 90% topspin and a 10% or 20% sidespin. Not a bad ball by any means, but not the ball I am trying to bowl:



Can anyone spot anything I'm doing differently, particulary in the last couple of videos compared to the first one? It may well simply be that I'm not getting my into the correct position. Maybe it's the googly syndrome that Dave has mentioned in the past.

I played a game yesterday. Picked up a couple of wickets for went for about 68 off 9 overs. Found myself coming on to bowl when they were 70/1 after 10 and looking to get after the bowling. We had one player short in the field and the overall fielding/keeping level was very poor. Not nice conditions to bowl in at all. I bowled ok and no more.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

ok, here's a few videos of my bowling to highlight the issues I'm having with the release. First up, here's the slow motion of my bowling action back in March. I had to curb my follow through a little because there was some snow/ice in front of me and it was a touch slippy. Maybe that helped, I don't know. But I think my action here (bowling at about 80%) is pretty good. The only issue is that front arm pointing down leg rather than down the wicket. But that never really affected my accuracy:



Next up is my bowling from earlier today (in slow motion 1/4 speed). This is probably me at about 60%-70%. Very relaxed and by no means a good ball, but the technique is pretty much the same as it was in the above video:




This next one is me close to flat out and you can see how the hand is now coming over the top of the ball as in a topspinner/googly:



The last one is the second delivery from the above video in 1/4 speed. As you can see, the ball turns a little, which suggests the ball is coming out with about 80% or 90% topspin and a 10% or 20% sidespin. Not a bad ball by any means, but not the ball I am trying to bowl:



Can anyone spot anything I'm doing differently, particulary in the last couple of videos compared to the first one? It may well simply be that I'm not getting my into the correct position. Maybe it's the googly syndrome that Dave has mentioned in the past.

I played a game yesterday. Picked up a couple of wickets for went for about 68 off 9 overs. Found myself coming on to bowl when they were 70/1 after 10 and looking to get after the bowling. We had one player short in the field and the overall fielding/keeping level was very poor. Not nice conditions to bowl in at all. I bowled ok and no more.

Looks like the same speed as me? Do you bowl Googlies much? The other thing is you fall away to the left dramatically, that might be worth looking at? Can't really see a lot of difference other than in the first video you get right up on your toes and it looks far more purposeful, where is in video two you only go up on the toes as part of the basic action - looks as though it has far less purpose. If you were to go back and incorporate the more determined get up on the toes approach you'll probably see an immediate benefit (more turn off the wicket).

 

[boogiespinner]

C Cleanprophet I would estimate your ice delivery around 37mph and the flat out one around 42mph.

 

[Cleanprophet]

Looks like the same speed as me? Do you bowl Googlies much? The other thing is you fall away to the left dramatically, that might be worth looking at? Can't really see a lot of difference other than in the first video you get right up on your toes and it looks far more purposeful, where is in video two you only go up on the toes as part of the basic action - looks as though it has far less purpose. If you were to go back and incorporate the more determined get up on the toes approach you'll probably see an immediate benefit (more turn off the wicket).

I never used to, but now I bowl them quite a bit. That's why I was thinking about that googly syndrome thing.

That thing about being up on the toes is probably due to my follow through being curtailed. It may well be that I simply need to work on the release position, but it may also be something to do with my body position at the point of release. I do fall away to my left and that's something I never really used to do. If you look at that first video at about 7 secs (just as I release the ball) and compare it with 11 secs on the last one (again, just as I release the ball), I think the head position is different. In the first one, my head is more upright and in line with the left leg. In the last one, the head is more forward and to the left a little leading to me falling away to the left. If you move it on one second, you see that my torso is much more upright in the first one, whilst in the last one it is almost parallel with the ground.

I often look back at this slow motion of Warne's action:



He doesn't lose very much height at all right through his action. Also, I notice that his left leg does step across to set up the rotation whereas my left leg lands straight down the pitch. I think the issue here is balance and it probably does relate to what leftie was talking about last week when he said the key is to get more energy into the action rather than trying to push the arm through too quickly. I think I lose my whole shape and balance when trying to bowl it a bit quicker and that may well impact on the release position.

C Cleanprophet I would estimate your ice delivery around 37mph and the flat out one around 42mph.

Really? Seems a bit quicker to me. It's always hard to tell because I don't ever face my bowling. I use the bowling machine a lot and I never have it slower than 50mph. The ice one was a slower delivery. I felt it was in the 40mph-45mph bracket, but that other one feels like it is around the 50mph mark to me. You could be right. There are some blokes in the nets on Thursday who face pro spinners all the time. I've never actually asked them what sort of pace my bowling is, so I may ask them on Thursday if I get the chance.

 

[boogiespinner]

Really? Seems a bit quicker to me. It's always hard to tell because I don't ever face my bowling. I use the bowling machine a lot and I never have it slower than 50mph. The ice one was a slower delivery. I felt it was in the 40mph-45mph bracket, but that other one feels like it is around the 50mph mark to me. You could be right. There are some blokes in the nets on Thursday who face pro spinners all the time. I've never actually asked them what sort of pace my bowling is, so I may ask them on Thursday if I get the chance.

I can't say with any certainty as there is measuring error possibilities but I think the method is basically pretty good. My last timing has that delivery going from the hand to the stumps (assuming the net is pretty close) in 1.2s or thereabouts. The pro bowlers are getting the ball to the stumps in less than a second. If your net is a yard behind the stumps, that would make your delivery faster by about 5%.

I think I overestimated Dave's speed as the ball I measured bounced very full. Another delivery which hits the stumps come out at around 40mph

 

[someblokecalleddave]

I can't say with any certainty as there is measuring error possibilities but I think the method is basically pretty good. My last timing has that delivery going from the hand to the stumps (assuming the net is pretty close) in 1.2s or thereabouts. The pro bowlers are getting the ball to the stumps in less than a second. If your net is a yard behind the stumps, that would make your delivery faster by about 5%.

I think I overestimated Dave's speed as the ball I measured bounced very full. Another delivery which hits the stumps come out at around 40mph

Sounds more realistic, I'd be happy with that. The new stuff though will be interesting to see how fast it is.

 

[Cleanprophet]

I can't say with any certainty as there is measuring error possibilities but I think the method is basically pretty good. My last timing has that delivery going from the hand to the stumps (assuming the net is pretty close) in 1.2s or thereabouts. The pro bowlers are getting the ball to the stumps in less than a second. If your net is a yard behind the stumps, that would make your delivery faster by about 5%.

The fencing is exactly a stump's length from the stumps, which is apparantly 0.75 of a yard.

I was just watching some of the women's Ashes ODI and one of the spinners bowled a ball at 50.8mph. I put it on slow motion (1/4 speed) and synced it with my delivery. They were almost identical with my delivery getting to the fence a tiny fraction before the 50.8mph ball got to the keeper.

Just did the same again with a ball bowled at 44mph and it matched the ice delivery almost perfectly. I'd estimate the two deliveries to be about 44mph and about 51mph.

 

[Cleanprophet]

Interesting little masterclass from Fawad Ahmed from earlier this year. Only just spotted it, but he displays a ball that he calls the "Zoora". To all intense and purposes, it's a slider, but he slides his fingers across the ball to create a little bit of offspin. He refers to it has being "the opposite of the legspinner" as the fingers spin down the other side of the ball. He also mentions that the fingers create "underspin".

 

[boogiespinner]

The fencing is exactly a stump's length from the stumps, which is apparantly 0.75 of a yard.

I was just watching some of the women's Ashes ODI and one of the spinners bowled a ball at 50.8mph. I put it on slow motion (1/4 speed) and synced it with my delivery. They were almost identical with my delivery getting to the fence a tiny fraction before the 50.8mph ball got to the keeper.

Just did the same again with a ball bowled at 44mph and it matched the ice delivery almost perfectly. I'd estimate the two deliveries to be about 44mph and about 51mph.

you could well be right, I hope so too. I'm going to try to work out how to get exact frame times from the video.

 

[boogiespinner]

Interesting little masterclass from Fawad Ahmed from earlier this year. Only just spotted it, but he displays a ball that he calls the "Zoora". To all intense and purposes, it's a slider, but he slides his fingers across the ball to create a little bit of offspin. He refers to it has being "the opposite of the legspinner" as the fingers spin down the other side of the ball. He also mentions that the fingers create "underspin".

I am betting that is a Pakistani translation for 'zooter'. Think I've seen a short Warne clip where he mimics the same action.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

I know it's not purely spin bowling but my sons recent 10.4-2-15-6 (off-spin and seam bowling) has earned him the recognition of the county and he's been given a slot in 3 district games (Only one level down from playing for Essex) and will be playing mid Essex and West Essex over the coming days. In the meantime because of his endeavours we won tickets to go and see an Essex game next week and he got this nice little certificate from the county as well. More info on my blog as usual...
http://mpafirsteleven.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/joe-thompson-u15s-bowler-basildon.html

 

[someblokecalleddave]

Other news... Blimey what a load of rubbish this all is! So, today all bright eyed and bushy tailed I go out on to the paddock with 2 cameras with the intention of showing off my new much faster approach and guess what happens? Yep you guessed, if the stumps had been barn doors I'd have struggled to hit them! I then tried a Terry Jenner approach - same load of tat and then my usual approach another bunch of tat.

I then go in have some lunch and then without the cameras bowl like Stuart Macgill and Terry Jenner and bowl some good stuff in my normal way. So no evidence today at all and wondering what I should do next? Think I'll stick to my normal approach and some more of the Terry Jenner 2 or 3 steps approach in the short term.

 

[Cleanprophet]

Other news... Blimey what a load of rubbish this all is! So, today all bright eyed and bushy tailed I go out on to the paddock with 2 cameras with the intention of showing off my new much faster approach and guess what happens? Yep you guessed, if the stumps had been barn doors I'd have struggled to hit them! I then tried a Terry Jenner approach - same load of tat and then my usual approach another bunch of tat.

I then go in have some lunch and then without the cameras bowl like Stuart Macgill and Terry Jenner and bowl some good stuff in my normal way. So no evidence today at all and wondering what I should do next? Think I'll stick to my normal approach and some more of the Terry Jenner 2 or 3 steps approach in the short term.

The life of a legspinner eh? It seems to be a constant battle to keep your head above water!

 

[Cleanprophet]

you could well be right, I hope so too. I'm going to try to work out how to get exact frame times from the video.

I just wish I had a speed gun to know for sure.

I've bowled a lot in the nets alongside spinners that I know bowl normal 1st class pace (50mph or so) and I'm around the same pace as them.

As for my bowling, I've come to the conclusion that my problem stems around my gather and subsequent postion at the crease at the point of rotation. We are told to move towards the stumps, at the non-striker's end, and all legspinners I've seen do indeed jump towards the stumps and then their leading leg, the left leg, then moves a little more more towards the line of the stumps. Then, from that position, they rotate around the front leg.

I've noticed that I jump straight and not towards the stumps, with my front leg going straight down the track rather than across my body a little. That leaves my weight in a position where I can't quite rotate with full control and balance. Hence me falling forward and to the left. A seam bowler should aim to have the bowling arm in line with the standing leg, so that you could draw a vertical line straight down the bowling arm and into the left foot. A spinner doesn't have to do the same, but should look to keep the weight over that front leg as much as possible. Again, my weight is to the left and not close enough to being over the leading leg.

When I bowl about 80% and about 40mph (as in the ice cricket clip) I am able to maintain balance reasonably well despite my gather and landing position not being as it should be. However, once I try to bowl with more energy I am unable to maintain balance and that leaves me falling away to the left, losing shape, losing accuracy and, of course, losing release position.

Well, that's what I am thinking anyway. Either way, I think I should aim to have my approach moving more towards the stumps and that front leg more across my body. So I will look to implement that and see if I can maintain balance and shape when bowling flat out.

 

[someblokecalleddave]

I just wish I had a speed gun to know for sure.

I've bowled a lot in the nets alongside spinners that I know bowl normal 1st class pace (50mph or so) and I'm around the same pace as them.

As for my bowling, I've come to the conclusion that my problem stems around my gather and subsequent postion at the crease at the point of rotation. We are told to move towards the stumps, at the non-striker's end, and all legspinners I've seen do indeed jump towards the stumps and then their leading leg, the left leg, then moves a little more more towards the line of the stumps. Then, from that position, they rotate around the front leg.

I've noticed that I jump straight and not towards the stumps, with my front leg going straight down the track rather than across my body a little. That leaves my weight in a position where I can't quite rotate with full control and balance. Hence me falling forward and to the left. A seam bowler should aim to have the bowling arm in line with the standing leg, so that you could draw a vertical line straight down the bowling arm and into the left foot. A spinner doesn't have to do the same, but should look to keep the weight over that front leg as much as possible. Again, my weight is to the left and not close enough to being over the leading leg.

When I bowl about 80% and about 40mph (as in the ice cricket clip) I am able to maintain balance reasonably well despite my gather and landing position not being as it should be. However, once I try to bowl with more energy I am unable to maintain balance and that leaves me falling away to the left, losing shape, losing accuracy and, of course, losing release position.

Well, that's what I am thinking anyway. Either way, I think I should aim to have my approach moving more towards the stumps and that front leg more across my body. So I will look to implement that and see if I can maintain balance and shape when bowling flat out.

Have a look at Stuart Macgills video and what he says about bowling actions. A lot of people do that thing like Warne does where their leg that's in the air swings round, rather than pushes through forwards, that might be something to consider?

 

[Cleanprophet]

Have a look at Stuart Macgills video and what he says about bowling actions. A lot of people do that thing like Warne does where their leg that's in the air swings round, rather than pushes through forwards, that might be something to consider?

No worries for me in that area. That's something I've always done without thinking about it.

I've watched a bit of Bishoo and Badree tonight in the CPL and a couple of things stood out. Firstly, Bishoo's front arm also pushes out towards the legside - just as I do. Badree is very interesting because he bowls with mostly overspin and lots of googlys. His approach to the crease is much more like mine than the traditional approach. That suggests to me that putting overspin on the ball can get you into a position where you can fall away to your left. I know lots of people advise dropping the left shoulder to bowl the googly. I've been doing that when bowling flat out and that is probably why I'm falling away to the left and bowling with more overspin than I want.