Can openers become middle order batsmen?

[gbatman]

Can openers become middle order batsmen?

Can openers become middle order batsmen? Seems Australia have been able to turn middle order batsmen into openers successfully with Katich and Watson, can it work the other way around? I suppose Hussey was an opener turned Middle order at.

It just appears we have a lot of talented openers with Marsh, Warner, Hughes and Jaques. We also have a struggling middle order with Hussey appearing to be finished and Ponting coming towards the end of his career.

I was thinking along the lines of Hughes replacing Hussey in the middle order in tests. Warner replacing Hussey in the ODI's in the middle order and Marsh could bat at any order but he's got to get fit and in form.

I think there is a mentality that openers can't bat in the middle order in the Australian camp, not sure I agree but I suppose it stems from the days when an opener's job was to see out the new ball and not necessarily make good runs. Now those things have changed.

So what are people's thoughts on a good opener becoming a good middle order player?

 

[Boris]

Re: Can openers become middle order batsmen?

Personally I think any batsman can bat anywhere, but only if they show they can.

Opening is the second hardest role as a batsman to fill, after number 3. I won't explain why as I'm sure you guys can figure it out, but just believe me there.

Obviously for Katich to be selected as an opener he had to play as an opener. These things need to be done at domestic levels. Katich played as an opener for a couple of seasons and did well. That's why he was selected.

If he batted at no.4 I dare say he never would have broken into the side. Not with Ponting, Hussey (even though he's out of touch, lets just say he was always going to stay there no matter the pressure) and Clarke taking up the three positions he has any chance with then.

If a batsman is opening at domestic level then it is obvious that is where they are trying to open for Australia.

Would Australia have picked Katich after he had been opening and put him straight back into no.6 again? No they wouldn't have, they would have found someone who has been performing well at number 4-6 and had them play.

I am a firm believer that in Tests for batsman you don't concrete your selection, you concrete your place in the batting line up. Hayden opened for Queensland. He would never have been picked and dumped down in no.6 to show his skills then moved up.

Obviously Marsh, Warner, Hughes and Jaques want to open. If they want anywhere else they have to show their interest in batting lower for their state. You have to play in the position you want to consider playing their for real.

 

[Caesar]

Re: Can openers become middle order batsmen?

First thing's first - Mod's Note - let's keep this discussion about the general concept and away from debating the current Australian team's makeup. There's already a couple of threads on that in the Australia/NZ forum.

Now that's out of the way - I'm going to stick to talking Tests, because in the less protracted forms the difference between batsmen is rapidly being eroded.

Can openers do the job in the middle order? It depends. Skill is not generally the problem. They face the new ball and the spearhead bowlers, so their job is undoubtably tough, and they need to be very technically sound (particularly defensively) because of this.

The problem is mentality. Openers, unlike any other player in the side, have the benefit of a clean sheet when they walk out to bat. It is an unmitigated freedom. They really have one job - weather the initial onslaught. If they survive the first 20 overs without losing their wicket, due to the pace of the new ball off the bat they'll usually have accumulated a respectable run base by default. They then have unprecedented freedom to lash out.

A batsman at 4 or 5 can come in under a huge range of conditions, and their role may vary wildly based on what has gone before. Sure - they might be there to slog. Alternatively they might have to bunker down and stop the rot. Later in the innings they might need to farm strike and protect the tail. In some ways it may not be as tough as an opener facing a Steyn or Harmison with the new ball, but it requires incredible versatility.

Is that a job I would trust to an opener? Some openers, yes. Hayden was a sensational opening bat, but he's the last recognised batsmen in the side that I'd have wanted batting on a fifth day pitch in India with the tail when we're 7 wickets down. As good a batsman as he was, he didn't have the mentality to play that role naturally. Even in just ODIs I don't think somebody like Warner has the brain for it. On the other hand, I could maybe see someone like Langer adapting to that sort of situation if required.

Why more middle-order -> opener than the other way around? I think the versatility of middle order batsmen often means that one with stong technique and defence can comfortably slot into that opening role if required (see Katich). But on the flip side, the characteristics that make a natural opener so good at that role - controlled aggression, liking for the new ball - can hamper their success in the less glamourous down-the-order position.

 

[Boris]

Re: Can openers become middle order batsmen?

This is one of the reasons why cricket is such a different game because of every single little technicallity like this.

This is why number 3 is the hardest position because they have to be an opener and a middle order player. A thing that can be almost certain when two equal teams are playing each other is that one of the openers fail and get out cheaply and quickly. That means the number 3 has to come in and essentially open. On the flipside the openers may succeed against the new ball and bat for a 150 run partnership. Then the number 3 comes in when the ball is old and there is that middle order style that you say.

Very well put Ceaser.

So I think now the the question is rather:

We have so many good openers in this country, how could we possiblly fit them all in the side?

 

[mas cambios]

Re: Can openers become middle order batsmen?

In theory, anyone can bat anywhere (if they have the skill) but it's not that simple. Probably the biggest thing is the mental side of it, some people want the new ball whilst others will struggle against it. Yes, this can be down to technique but I also think its mental as well.

 

[heslop]

Re: Can openers become middle order batsmen?

In theory, anyone can bat anywhere (if they have the skill) but it's not that simple. Probably the biggest thing is the mental side of it, some people want the new ball whilst others will struggle against it. Yes, this can be down to technique but I also think its mental as well.

your right
its all about the mental side of things i love batting middle order but hate opening just because of the new ball

 

[LIONS then DAYLIGHT]

Re: Can openers become middle order batsmen?

I think the biggest thing is trying to get the balance right in the batting order. Each player has their own style which may be suited to different places in the batting order.

For mine there are 2 specialist positions. 1) Opener 2) Number 3.

Im a firm believer that number 3 should be the place for the best batsmen in the team.

Here your best batsmen has the best chance of influencing the match, in turn making it easier for lesser batsmen coming in after him to score runs.

Your best batsmen coming in any lower then 4 is a waste.

Conversely, your openers are normally more conservative, each with a sound technique. They combine good defense with the ability to leave the ball outside off stump.

 

[Boris]

Re: Can openers become middle order batsmen?

I think the biggest thing is trying to get the balance right in the batting order. Each player has their own style which may be suited to different places in the batting order.

For mine there are 2 specialist positions. 1) Opener 2) Number 3.

Im a firm believer that number 3 should be the place for the best batsmen in the team.

Here your best batsmen has the best chance of influencing the match, in turn making it easier for lesser batsmen coming in after him to score runs.

Your best batsmen coming in any lower then 4 is a waste.

Conversely, your openers are normally more conservative, each with a sound technique. They combine good defense with the ability to leave the ball outside off stump.

Exactly.

I think the opener's should be a bit of an opposite really. One a clean hitter that can really force an attack to it's knees, and another that will just whittle them to their demise. Just like Hayden and Langer that's what I think openers should be like.

 

[LIONS then DAYLIGHT]

Re: Can openers become middle order batsmen?

Ideally yes you want was variety in your opening batsmen's styles.

But to me it doesn't overly matter, to me opening requires strong mental ability. Its why Langer was such a good player in that oppostion, he was mentally very strong.

Often the openers have to come out after spenidng 2 days in the field with a 15 minute break between innings, the guys coming in lower can have a quick shower and gather their thoughs.

Langer was had a crunching cut while Hayden used to punch the ball down the ground like a shell out of a deckgun, so you had your two openers with different scoring strengths.

Quick scoring is also ideal, there is nothing like a good start to an innings. Like 0/60 off 15 overs.

Remember the 06/07 ashes at the gabba, we got out of the blocks like a bull at a gate, taking 60 odd off the first hour and we never looked back.

 

[petersiddle09]

Re: Can openers become middle order batsmen?

A High class batsman can bat anywhere, I'd really like to see Dave Warner from Newsouthwales, bat at 6 for Australia.. So he replaces Symonds.

 

[Boris]

Re: Can openers become middle order batsmen?

A High class batsman can bat anywhere, I'd really like to see Dave Warner from Newsouthwales, bat at 6 for Australia.. So he replaces Symonds.

Interesting thought. I think Warner has a very good technique and will probably play some Tests for his country. I like him.

The question is whether he wants to or not, or if he prefers opening. As someone said earlier, you probably wouldn't have wanted Hayden batting with the tail in the last couple of days because he is not mentally that player. Depends if Warner is like that as well.

 

[LIONS then DAYLIGHT]

Re: Can openers become middle order batsmen?

Warner at 6.

No way.

 

[Boris]

Re: Can openers become middle order batsmen?

Warner at 6.

No way.

Not yet we are talking. Definitely not now. I don't even know if I would put him in the ODI side just yet.

But I am going to place my bet that he will be there by the time he is thirty.